Define "progressive" church

[OSBF]

Because it is the just and moral thing to do, you know, treat people fairly no matter who or what they are.

I thought Christians understood the being moral thing?

Well, trying to get a jab in at Christians aside, religion is tricky. Sometimes society's morals and a religion's morals don't line up. I think you know that. Some denominations believe that women should be precluded from being ministers, deacons, etc. and some do not.

The way I see it, a church has the ability to decide that for themselves. However, that doesn't preclude a woman from being a preacher, except at that church (that's not violating her civil rights, she's not forced to be a member of that church--she can leave at any time). That's not an "equal rights" issue as we understand it when it comes to government policies. Just like females are precluded from joining the Boy Scouts, they can be precluded from being ministers at some churches. That doesn't prevent her from being a minister if she chooses to be.

If a woman decides to go to a church that places limitations on what she can do within the church, who are any of us to tell her she can't attend said church?

Being moral, civil, and just are not defined by the government or a church. It is something that dwells within you, you either have it or you don't. It's really just common sense. The statement that a church telling a woman she can't be a minister, deacon, whatever doesn't violate her rights is just silly, and you know it.

What if the church openly said no blacks can be ministers here? Would you find that acceptable? I'm thinking you might take issue with that, and it essentially is no different at all than telling a female the same thing, both are equally disgraceful.

[ASUMountaineer]

Well, trying to get a jab in at Christians aside, religion is tricky. Sometimes society's morals and a religion's morals don't line up. I think you know that. Some denominations believe that women should be precluded from being ministers, deacons, etc. and some do not.

The way I see it, a church has the ability to decide that for themselves. However, that doesn't preclude a woman from being a preacher, except at that church (that's not violating her civil rights, she's not forced to be a member of that church--she can leave at any time). That's not an "equal rights" issue as we understand it when it comes to government policies. Just like females are precluded from joining the Boy Scouts, they can be precluded from being ministers at some churches. That doesn't prevent her from being a minister if she chooses to be.

If a woman decides to go to a church that places limitations on what she can do within the church, who are any of us to tell her she can't attend said church?

Being moral, civil, and just are not defined by the government or a church. It is something that dwells within you, you either have it or you don't. It's really just common sense. The statement that a church telling a woman she can't be a minister, deacon, whatever doesn't violate her rights is just silly, and you know it.

What if the church openly said no blacks can be ministers here? Would you find that acceptable? I'm thinking you might take issue with that, and it essentially is no different at all than telling a female the same thing, both are equally disgraceful.

You said civil rights, which are defined by a government. What I do know is a fact, and that is no one has a "right" to be a member of a church (which includes being a minister of a given church).

I'm more than OK with everything you mention.

Where I draw the line is with blatent civil rights/equal rights violations.

Any time a group is dis respected or denied oportunity open to others just because of something such as gender, I got a big problem with dat.

Nevertheless, what rights are being violated? Please list the rights that would be violated. She doesn't have a "right" to be a member/ minister of a church. I don't have a right to be a member of a church, just as I don't have a "right" to be a member of the NAACP. If they denied me membership, would you bitch about my rights being violated? Come on.

So, I guess you hate the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts. I guess they violate rights all the time, eh? What about the NBA or WNBA? Are they violating rights?

Look, I don't care if a woman wants to minister a church, more power to her--makes no difference to me. I also don't care if a church doesn't allow a woman minister. It's ridiculous to act like a church is violating someone's civil (or "equal") rights by not allowing a woman to be a member or a minister.

[OSBF]

Being moral, civil, and just are not defined by the government or a church. It is something that dwells within you, you either have it or you don't. It's really just common sense. The statement that a church telling a woman she can't be a minister, deacon, whatever doesn't violate her rights is just silly, and you know it.

What if the church openly said no blacks can be ministers here? Would you find that acceptable? I'm thinking you might take issue with that, and it essentially is no different at all than telling a female the same thing, both are equally disgraceful.

You said civil rights, which are defined by a government. What I do know is a fact, and that is no one has a "right" to be a member of a church (which includes being a minister of a given church).

I'm more than OK with everything you mention.

Where I draw the line is with blatent civil rights/equal rights violations.

Any time a group is dis respected or denied oportunity open to others just because of something such as gender, I got a big problem with dat.

Nevertheless, what rights are being violated? Please list the rights that would be violated. She doesn't have a "right" to be a member/ minister of a church. I don't have a right to be a member of a church, just as I don't have a "right" to be a member of the NAACP. If they denied me membership, would you bitch about my rights being violated? Come on.

So, I guess you hate the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts. I guess they violate rights all the time, eh? What about the NBA or WNBA? Are they violating rights?

Look, I don't care if a woman wants to minister a church, more power to her--makes no difference to me. I also don't care if a church doesn't allow a woman minister. It's ridiculous to act like a church is violating someone's civil (or "equal") rights by not allowing a woman to be a member or a minister.

people like you are why I quit organized religion. Using religion to justify being sexist and a biggot. There's a very special place in hell(yes, there is a hell) for people like you. You'll be right next to Fallwell and Baker.

[Gil Dobie]

Gotcha.

one of the catholic hating christian offshoots.

I would describe them more as Evangelicals.

So it's "progressive" to make fun of a group of people that don't believe what you believe?

Are they Evangelicals, or do you hate Evangelicals also, and "progressively" practice religious bigotry?

[OSBF]

I would describe them more as Evangelicals.

So it's "progressive" to make fun of a group of people that don't believe what you believe?

Are they Evangelicals, or do you hate Evangelicals also, and "progressively" practice religious bigotry?

who's making fun of anybody?

[ASUMountaineer]

You said civil rights, which are defined by a government. What I do know is a fact, and that is no one has a "right" to be a member of a church (which includes being a minister of a given church).



Nevertheless, what rights are being violated? Please list the rights that would be violated. She doesn't have a "right" to be a member/ minister of a church. I don't have a right to be a member of a church, just as I don't have a "right" to be a member of the NAACP. If they denied me membership, would you bitch about my rights being violated? Come on.

So, I guess you hate the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts. I guess they violate rights all the time, eh? What about the NBA or WNBA? Are they violating rights?

Look, I don't care if a woman wants to minister a church, more power to her--makes no difference to me. I also don't care if a church doesn't allow a woman minister. It's ridiculous to act like a church is violating someone's civil (or "equal") rights by not allowing a woman to be a member or a minister.

people like you are why I quit organized religion. Using religion to justify being sexist and a biggot. There's a very special place in hell(yes, there is a hell) for people like you.You'll be right next to Fallwell and Baker.

I never said I am against women being ministers. Your "tolerance" isn't showing through because of your judgment. I really don't care what you think of me, but I have no ill-will towards you. I don't even know you. I'm not going to condemn you based on your opinions, like a child. You seem like a nice guy (though a little over-the-top with the condemnation simply for differing opinions).

I don't care if women want to be ministers (I've said this already). I'm not using religion to justify anything for myself. You're the one that thinks your beliefs should be forced upon a private entity (church, charity, or organization) that limits membership. I happen to disagree, and think a church (charity or organization) can hire or admit who they want. Like I said, I can't join the NAACP because of something as simple as my race, why aren't you "outraged" at that?

[OSBF]

people like you are why I quit organized religion. Using religion to justify being sexist and a biggot. There's a very special place in hell(yes, there is a hell) for people like you.You'll be right next to Fallwell and Baker.

I never said I am against women being ministers. Your "tolerance" isn't showing through because of your judgment. I really don't care what you think of me, but I have no ill-will towards you. I don't even know you. I'm not going to condemn you based on your opinions, like a child. You seem like a nice guy (though a little over-the-top with the condemnation simply for differing opinions).

I don't care if women want to be ministers (I've said this already). I'm not using religion to justify anything for myself. You're the one that thinks your beliefs should be forced upon a private entity (church, charity, or organization) that limits membership. I happen to disagree, and think a church (charity or organization) can hire or admit who they want. Like I said, I can't join the NAACP because of something as simple as my race, why aren't you "outraged" at that?

I'm pretty sure you, or myself for that matter could join the NAACP if we so choose.

[andy7171]

Man OSBF is angry. Are you furious about men not being able to be nuns?

[ASUMountaineer]

I never said I am against women being ministers. Your "tolerance" isn't showing through because of your judgment. I really don't care what you think of me, but I have no ill-will towards you. I don't even know you. I'm not going to condemn you based on your opinions, like a child. You seem like a nice guy (though a little over-the-top with the condemnation simply for differing opinions).

I don't care if women want to be ministers (I've said this already). I'm not using religion to justify anything for myself. You're the one that thinks your beliefs should be forced upon a private entity (church, charity, or organization) that limits membership. I happen to disagree, and think a church (charity or organization) can hire or admit who they want. Like I said, I can't join the NAACP because of something as simple as my race, why aren't you "outraged" at that?

I'm pretty sure you, or myself for that matter could join the NAACP if we so choose.

Perhaps, but it's really just to make a point. Augusta National doesn't allow women to be members, should AN be forced to allow women to join and play in order to quit "violating" women's civil (or equal) rights? That's my point, these private entities can admit or hire who they want. They actually have a legal right to do so. I don't see it as violating rights because women aren't being forced to be members of a given church, or forced to try and become an ordained minister (or being forced to join Augusta National).

Back to the NAACP, if they wanted to deny my membership, I'd be ok with it. I don't have a "right" to be a member...