Glenn Beck.....it boggles my mind

[soul man]

I would like to think Jesus was more concerned with actually feeding the hungry than with the tax rate and/or tithe required to do so.

Me too. However, I found out this week that 1in 5 Christians who call themselves committed don't give one cent to charity. God doesn't need our money. We, however, need to give it.

[native]

We probably agree on all the good that Christians have accomplished over the millennia, but you are wrong about the reason for the label, soul man.

The label starts with serious misrepresentation of the Gospel. Jesus admonishes us to give our cloak to the needy man, not to steal your neighbor's cloak to assuage your own guilt. But you already know this.

You are not my judge. God almighty is my judge. Do what you want with your bank account, not mine.

And climb down from your moral high horse. Want to compare tens of thousands of dollars and hours contributed to others less fortunate? I have never been rich, but I have done my part. It is not your place to judge me. Nor is it my place to judge you unless you stick your hand in my pocket, so get your damm hand out of my pocket and go in peace.

Wow, where to start.
You are right, I am not your judge, and neither are you are mine. You accuse me of judging you, but isn't the term "fellow-traveler" a term of judgment? Extend to me the standard you want me to extend to you; you attack/misrepresent/belittle the work I do and that of other pastors who lead congregations to consider life beyond their walls of comfort. From this point onward, I hope we can move past pettiness and name calling. I certainly will try---or simply do what I did earlier--- quit having serious discussions on message boards.

"A serious misrepresentation of the Gospel." I think you and I have different interpretations of the Gospel certainly. I understand The Gospel as the good news of Jesus Christ and His offer of salvation to all. You seem to think it is for me a document for the forced redistribution of wealth. It is not. I do see people in this world who are poor out of choice, I see hustlers and con men; but those are statistically few compared to the children I see born in poverty (in the county where I live, not even overseas). That doesn't count for the people the church I serve gave fuel oil to, or the hundreds of bags of groceries given to people because their assistance checks did not go far enough. Professionally, I don't care of its the church which improves the lot of the poor or the government. Just, please get it done. The poor are among us.

But so are the rich; wresting money from them will not solve the problem...I don't even think that is the solution of the Gospel---that forced redistribution. No, I think our society should take its cue from Christ who favored the poor, powerless, and victimized with his life, healings and miracles. I think the mark of greatness of a civilization or society is how it treats the "least of these," as Christ would say. He spoke more of the evils of money than on homosexuality. The evils of the love of money, I should say. After all as Christ said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that a rich man to get into heaven. Why? Because money is more important---it becomes an idol. Remember, by the world's standards most of us in this country are rich. Selfishness is a sin. Not only in the afterlife, but here and now. It pollutes the soul and ruins our nation. When we give up our selfish ways we find joy. We begin to see people as people and not our enemies

Mr. Beck sees the work of pastors who are seeking to relieve the suffering of the poor as some extension of a communist agenda. What has been interesting has been the wholesale condemnation of Mr. Beck's comments by religious people from all experiences what some would call left and right. Mr. Beck appears to be one in a long line of people looking for an audience and an advertising dollar. He got that this week.

Peace, Brother.

Thank you for the honor of such a thoughtful reply, soul man!

I certainly accept your suggestion of reciprocity in judgment. However, I am afraid I miscommunicated about my use of the term "judge," for which I apologize. I should have said in my original post that you are not my spiritual judge. And I do not deign to be anyone else's spiritual judge, notwithstanding my salty language. Political judgments and labels are a different matter. I will continue to politically judge thread correspondents with passion, glee, commitment, and hopefully fairness and good humor. You are also most welcome to be my political judge as a fellow citizen. That's part of the bargain of living in a free society and participating on a message board.

I disagree with your conclusion that "Mr. Beck sees the work of pastors who are seeking to relieve the suffering of the poor as some extension of a communist agenda." That is not true. Beck DOES see the work of pastors who are seeking to relieve the suffering of the poor by means of forced redistribution of wealth and other communist solutions as a direct extension of a communist agenda. And Beck has a valid point. Some of the church dogma posted by skelly is very explicit about this. Being cloaked in the language of the Gospel is no excuse. In my opinion it is an abomination.

Nor do I "attack/misrepresent/belittle the work I do and that of other pastors who lead congregations to consider life beyond their walls of comfort." You can admonish and preach to me all you want, and I have probably responded to such admonishments more than you would care to admit, but when you advocate for government solutions and put your hand in my pocket, you cross a line that should never be crossed. Saying you don't care whether the church or the government improves the lot of the poor is, to me, an admission of failure and abdication of responsibility. Better to ask why your work and church have been unable to alleviate the suffering of the poor in your own county.

It is also historically accurate for Beck to claim that the words "social justice" have been used to cloak a destructive communist and/or authoritarian agenda, regardless of how well intentioned and naive some of its adherents may have been. In only ninety years, the communists have imposed more misery on humankind than any other system in recorded history. Human misery and failure is an inevitable result of the imposition of the communist solutions and systems of government. How this lesson is lost on so many Americans is incomprehensible.

I brook no nonsense about communists or communism from spoiled Americans who coddle them or apologize for them, or from unintentional fellow travelers. If my criticism includes academics (80%?) and clergy (20%?), so be it. My family members and colleagues have been among the millions tortured and murdered by communists, and I risked most of my adult life to oppose them. I will not back down or apologize for opposing communists, communist solutions, or those who support them. Nor should Beck, nor should any of us.

[kalm]

I would like to think Jesus was more concerned with actually feeding the hungry than with the tax rate and/or tithe required to do so.

Me too. However, I found out this week that 1in 5 Christians who call themselves committed don't give one cent to charity. God doesn't need our money. We, however, need to give it.

Which is all the more puzzling about Beck's libertarian Jesus crusade. I thought the mormons required more donations and had one of the strongest church welfare programs around.

[native]

Me too. However, I found out this week that 1in 5 Christians who call themselves committed don't give one cent to charity. God doesn't need our money. We, however, need to give it.

Which is all the more puzzling about Beck's libertarian Jesus crusade. I thought the mormons required more donations and had one of the strongest church welfare programs around.

They do, but donations are not the same thing as taxes and forced wealth redistribution cloaked in the Gospel.

[native]

I would like to think Jesus was more concerned with actually feeding the hungry than with the tax rate and/or tithe required to do so.

Me too. However, I found out this week that 1in 5 Christians who call themselves committed don't give one cent to charity. God doesn't need our money. We, however, need to give it.

I cannot find any place in the Gospel where Jesus takes the rich man's cloak, or advocates for one penny of taxes to feed the poor. Rather, he admonishes the rich man to give the cloak and all of us to share. Does this distinction have no meaning for any of you supposedly religious lefties? How the hell do you make that leap?

Since God fails us, we must seek a government solution?!??? We eschew money, but we're sure willing to steal it from the rich man?!??? What kind of faithlessness is that?

DONATIONS DO NOT EQUAL TAXES. YOU CANNOT "VOTE" FOR MY DONATION.

[soul man]

Native,
I understand how you can can say some clergy are Marxist, but I don't think it is fair to generalize a whole group of people. Most clergy look at the Gospel's imperative of feed the sheep, and care for the least of these, rather than a Marxist imperative to redistribute wealth.

As far as improving the lives of the community/county and why the church has not had an impact here, there are other forces at play... education levels, cycles of poverty, unemployment to name just a few.

The church has alleviated suffering for a couple of thousand years---long before MArxism/communism came to the stage.

Not that I am Marxist, but what do you make of Acts where it says all believers should have all things in common?

[native]

Native,
I understand how you can can say some clergy are Marxist, but I don't think it is fair to generalize a whole group of people. Most clergy look at the Gospel's imperative of feed the sheep, and care for the least of these, rather than a Marxist imperative to redistribute wealth.

As far as improving the lives of the community/county and why the church has not had an impact here, there are other forces at play... education levels, cycles of poverty, unemployment to name just a few.

The church has alleviated suffering for a couple of thousand years---long before MArxism/communism came to the stage.

Not that I am Marxist, but what do you make of Acts where it says all believers should have all things in common?

I do not think every Christian preacher is a marxist, and I don't think Beck thinks so, either. In fact most that I have known, except for one Episcopalian, are pretty much anti-communist and preach the Old Testament as well as the New. I think in my post I guessed that about 20% of the clergy are left wing of some flavor, and about 80% of academics.

I certainly agree that it is our duty to care for the least of these, but not to impose that burden on others.

I figured you would try to corner me on Scripture, preacher! My general answer is that I do try to intellectually reconcile and live consistently with Scripture. My specific answer about Acts is I don't know. Although I think historical context and congregation are considerations, I do pray for a catholic church and the meaning is not lost on me. I take the Gospels more seriuosly than the Epistles. Some of my thoughts on the Apostle Paul are probably heretical, and I look forward to your erudition of Christian History.

[houndawg]

Which is all the more puzzling about Beck's libertarian Jesus crusade. I thought the mormons required more donations and had one of the strongest church welfare programs around.

They do, but donations are not the same thing as taxes and forced wealth redistribution cloaked in the Gospel.

Mormons don't donate, they tithe.


Give me (ohhwoh)
your dirty love (uhhhuuuh)
just like a pink donation
to the dragon of your dreams.

[soul man]

Native,
I understand how you can can say some clergy are Marxist, but I don't think it is fair to generalize a whole group of people. Most clergy look at the Gospel's imperative of feed the sheep, and care for the least of these, rather than a Marxist imperative to redistribute wealth.

As far as improving the lives of the community/county and why the church has not had an impact here, there are other forces at play... education levels, cycles of poverty, unemployment to name just a few.

The church has alleviated suffering for a couple of thousand years---long before MArxism/communism came to the stage.

Not that I am Marxist, but what do you make of Acts where it says all believers should have all things in common?

I do not think every Christian preacher is a marxist, and I don't think Beck thinks so, either. In fact most that I have known, except for one Episcopalian, are pretty much anti-communist and preach the Old Testament as well as the New. I think in my post I guessed that about 20% of the clergy are left wing of some flavor, and about 80% of academics.

I certainly agree that it is our duty to care for the least of these, but not to impose that burden on others.

I figured you would try to corner me on Scripture, preacher! My general answer is that I do try to intellectually reconcile and live consistently with Scripture. My specific answer about Acts is I don't know. Although I think historical context and congregation are considerations, I do pray for a catholic church and the meaning is not lost on me. I take the Gospels more seriuosly than the Epistles. Some of my thoughts on the Apostle Paul are probably heretical, and I look forward to your erudition of Christian History.

Christian History is a pretty big topic--- you got something specific to start?

[native]

Christian History is a pretty big topic--- you got something specific to start?

Why not the historical context and political meaning of the "Acts of the Apsotles?"

[native]

I would like to think Jesus was more concerned with actually feeding the hungry than with the tax rate and/or tithe required to do so.

If all the red parts of the Gospels are what I think they probably are, kalm, there is not much doubt about your conclusion.

There is also not much doubt that Jesus was preaching to convince people, not to force people to choose His path.

[Wedgebuster]

Back on topic jack offs!

[native]

Back on topic jack offs!

Nice pic of Beck, wedger.

If you bothered to actually read the thread (just sayin'), you might realize that a discussion of the Gospel is central to Beck's warning about "social justice" which initiated this thread and is therefore central to the topic.

Oooops! Sorry.... Let me 'splain it to ya: G O S P E L in this context refers to the four books of the NEW TESTAMENT (perhaps some would include the Epistles of Saint Paul) of the BIBLE which describe the life of JESUS (a famous historical and religious figure - you may have heard of him), upon which the concept of "social justice" is purported to be based.

Beck's contention is not only that the term "social justice" has been hijacked by marxist and/or authoritarian rabble rousers flying false colors, but also by some clergy who have unfortunately strayed far from the GOSPEL, in fact perverted the GOSPEL by using it to justify marxist redistributionist "social justice" schemes, completely outside the pale of anything suggested or condoned by Jesus in the GOSPELS.

It is not true, of course, that Beck is agitating about clergy preaching within their flocks and challenging them to help the poor. This is a shallow and blatantly false accusation that Beck's opponents raise when they cannot attack him on any issue of SUBSTANCE. Too bad, because Beck is kinda off the wall and hysterical and sometimes makes mistakes for which he could be legitimately criticized, but his critics and opponents seem incapable of making legitimate criticisms and make their own sensationalized, hysterical false accusations instead. Go figure.

Although you are certainly entitled to your opinion about masturbation, it is not central to the concept of "social justice," or whether Beck's opinions are grounded in truth.

THANK YOU, Wedges. You are SUCH a good straight man!

[houndawg]

Jesus was a recycled Egyptian sun god myth.

[native]

Jesus was a recycled Egyptian sun god myth.

...JESUS, a famous historical and religious figure who may of may not have been a recycled Eqyptian sun god myth... as many of the cynical leftie "social justice" clergy comrades may well believe deep in their hearts.

[Skjellyfetti]

[youtube][/youtube]

[native]

[youtube][/youtube]

There! Ya see, Wedges?!?? I told you there was something legitimate for which Beck could be criticized!

...not actually SUBSTANTIVE from the point of view of any particular ISSUE or FACT, but legitimate nonetheless.

Unfortunately for the Beck haters, his ranting about politicized leftie clergy advocating for government redistributionist "social justice" is a perfectly valid criticism of both marxists and left wing clergy, and is not really subject to any legitimate criticism.

Edit: Preacher soul man, before you take offense, don't wear the shoe if it doesn't fit!

[houndawg]

Jesus was a recycled Egyptian sun god myth.

...JESUS, a famous historical and religious figure who may of may not have been a recycled Eqyptian sun god myth... as many of the cynical leftie "social justice" clergy comrades may well believe deep in their hearts.

He's famous now. He was pretty small time in his own day; back then there were all kinds of claimants to the messiaship running around.

I'll never cease to be amazed at people who think that a bunch of wandering goat-herders interpretation of cosmology is correct.