Politics of Love

[native]

I love every one of you jackasses. ...Well, except for d1b.

Just git yur fvcking guvmt hand out of my pocket, then do whatever you want with your OWN money.

If you need help: ASK, don't STEAL.

If you want to feel good about yourself: DONATE YOUR OWN MONEY!

Then go in peace. Or come over for a beer.

[kalm]

The military developed the internet, and the fiber optic cable running to my house is burried in a public right of way next to the street. Does this mean Comcast is stealing from me when I read your message?

P.S. I love you too, and I'll bring the chips.

[Ivytalk]

I love every one of you jackasses. Well, except for d1b.

Just git yur fvcking guvmt hand out of my pocket, then do whatever you want with your OWN money.

If you need help: ASK, don't STEAL.

If you want to feel good about yourself: DONATE YOUR OWN MONEY!

Then go in peace. Or come over for a beer.

I like your Philosophy of Life, native!

[kalm]

I love every one of you jackasses. Well, except for d1b.

Just git yur fvcking guvmt hand out of my pocket, then do whatever you want with your OWN money.

If you need help: ASK, don't STEAL.

If you want to feel good about yourself: DONATE YOUR OWN MONEY!

Then go in peace. Or come over for a beer.

I like your Philosophy of Life, native!

Of course you would.

The sense of entitlement amongst the elite and "self reliant" is delicious.

[Ivytalk]

I like your Philosophy of Life, native!

Of course you would.

The sense of entitlement amongst the elite and "self reliant" is delicious.

But not as "delicious" as the sense of entitlement amongst public employee unions and others who feed at Ye Olde Publicke Trough!

[native]

I like your Philosophy of Life, native!

Of course you would.

The sense of entitlement amongst the elite and "self reliant" is delicious.

EVERYONE, kalm, is ENTITLED to the fruits of their own labor.

Kalm, I like people and I am a "joiner." I like organizations that do good things like science fair boards, business organizations, professional organizations, booster clubs, youth sports clubs, etc. I VOLUNTARILY JOIN such organizations so I can enjoy putting my own time TIME and MONEY where my mouth is.

"Elite" can go through cycles, and it's a self image more than anything else. No one has to be "elite" to participate in civil society.

When people - either rich or poor - do NOT participate in civil society, and when they fail to spend their own treasure to build those ties than bind, we have already lost the battle. No amount of government intervention makes it better - only worse.

We cannot steal from one neighbor to do for another neightbor what he is unwilling to do for himself. Since a stolen "gift" in the form of unearned benefits is not a gift and not given from the heart, or accepted in gratitude, there are no positive ties of civil society to bind us together in common purpose as a result of the transaction. Instead of civil society, we are left with envy, greed, the gross inefficiency of a government that takes 30% or more off the top, and takes the soul and goodness out of the "gift."

That's why preachers who advocate government redistribution have already admitted defeat, lost their battle and demonstrate a breathtaking lack of faith in their own "faith." That's why "community organizers" have lost their battle. They do more harm than good. Not only do they use the wrong means, they don't even truly understand their own ends. There is neither civil "society" nor true "justice" in "social justice."

Community organizers watching productive people are like monkeys watching humans use tools, then trying to imitate the humans. (My apolologies to monkeys.) Sometimes they get lucky and crack a nut with a rock to eat the fruit of the seed, but life could be so much more than just eating the seeds of the future. When they organize people to feel like victims and justify taking from others, they are eating the good fruit and planting bad fruit.

[native]

The military developed the internet, and the fiber optic cable running to my house is burried in a public right of way next to the street. Does this mean Comcast is stealing from me when I read your message?

P.S. I love you too, and I'll bring the chips.

Mmmmm! Chips! My weakness!

[Col Hogan]

I like your Philosophy of Life, native!

Of course you would.

The sense of entitlement amongst the elite and "self reliant" is delicious.

I've never been called "elite" before...

[kalm]

Of course you would.

The sense of entitlement amongst the elite and "self reliant" is delicious.

I've never been called "elite" before...

Gee, I wonder why.

[Col Hogan]

I've never been called "elite" before...

Gee, I wonder why.

Oh, I know why...

Ask anyone who has met me...they know why...

[dbackjon]

Gee, I wonder why.

Oh, I know why...

Ask anyone who has met me...they know why...

I don't know - scotch-sipping, suspender-wearing, UMASS grad

[Col Hogan]

Oh, I know why...

Ask anyone who has met me...they know why...

I don't know - scotch-sipping, suspender-wearing, UMASS grad

This has to be a first...UMass called "ELITE"....

I'll have to bookmark this thread for future reference...

[kalm]

Of course you would.

The sense of entitlement amongst the elite and "self reliant" is delicious.

EVERYONE, kalm, is ENTITLED to the fruits of their own labor.

Kalm, I like people and I am a "joiner." I like organizations that do good things like science fair boards, business organizations, professional organizations, booster clubs, youth sports clubs, etc. I VOLUNTARILY JOIN such organizations so I can enjoy putting my own time TIME and MONEY where my mouth is.

"Elite" can go through cycles, and it's a self image more than anything else. No one has to be "elite" to participate in civil society.

When people - either rich or poor - do NOT participate in civil society, and when they fail to spend their own treasure to build those ties than bind, we have already lost the battle. No amount of government intervention makes it better - only worse.

We cannot steal from one neighbor to do for another neightbor what he is unwilling to do for himself. Since a stolen "gift" in the form of unearned benefits is not a gift and not given from the heart, or accepted in gratitude, there are no positive ties of civil society to bind us together in common purpose as a result of the transaction. Instead of civil society, we are left with envy, greed, the gross inefficiency of a government that takes 30% or more off the top, and takes the soul and goodness out of the "gift."

That's why preachers who advocate government redistribution have already admitted defeat, lost their battle and demonstrate a breathtaking lack of faith in their own "faith." That's why "community organizers" have lost their battle. They do more harm than good. Not only do they use the wrong means, they don't even truly understand their own ends. There is neither civil "society" nor true "justice" in "social justice."

Community organizers watching productive people are like monkeys watching humans use tools, then trying to imitate the humans. (My apolologies to monkeys.) Sometimes they get lucky and crack a nut with a rock to eat the fruit of the seed, but life could be so much more than just eating the seeds of the future. When they organize people to feel like victims and justify taking from others, they are eating the good fruit and planting bad fruit.

Well argued Nate. You and I are like minded when it comes to volunteerism and hard work.

But my point is similar to the old saw about being born on third and believing you've hit a homer. Success has as much to do with the advantages your born into as it does effort.

And I'm glad you like chips. Personally I think Ruffles Cheddar and Sour Cream are like crack.

[kalm]

I don't know - scotch-sipping, suspender-wearing, UMASS grad

This has to be a first...UMass called "ELITE"....

I'll have to bookmark this thread for future reference...

I didn't call you elite and there's a reason I placed "self reliant" in quotes.

[Col Hogan]

This has to be a first...UMass called "ELITE"....

I'll have to bookmark this thread for future reference...

I didn't call you elite .

But jon did...

[native]

I didn't call you elite .

But jon did...

Yeah, but Jon says a lot of things...

[native]

EVERYONE, kalm, is ENTITLED to the fruits of their own labor.

Kalm, I like people and I am a "joiner." I like organizations that do good things like science fair boards, business organizations, professional organizations, booster clubs, youth sports clubs, etc. I VOLUNTARILY JOIN such organizations so I can enjoy putting my own time TIME and MONEY where my mouth is.

"Elite" can go through cycles, and it's a self image more than anything else. No one has to be "elite" to participate in civil society.

When people - either rich or poor - do NOT participate in civil society, and when they fail to spend their own treasure to build those ties than bind, we have already lost the battle. No amount of government intervention makes it better - only worse.

We cannot steal from one neighbor to do for another neightbor what he is unwilling to do for himself. Since a stolen "gift" in the form of unearned benefits is not a gift and not given from the heart, or accepted in gratitude, there are no positive ties of civil society to bind us together in common purpose as a result of the transaction. Instead of civil society, we are left with envy, greed, the gross inefficiency of a government that takes 30% or more off the top, and takes the soul and goodness out of the "gift."

That's why preachers who advocate government redistribution have already admitted defeat, lost their battle and demonstrate a breathtaking lack of faith in their own "faith." That's why "community organizers" have lost their battle. They do more harm than good. Not only do they use the wrong means, they don't even truly understand their own ends. There is neither civil "society" nor true "justice" in "social justice."

Community organizers watching productive people are like monkeys watching humans use tools, then trying to imitate the humans. (My apolologies to monkeys.) Sometimes they get lucky and crack a nut with a rock to eat the fruit of the seed, but life could be so much more than just eating the seeds of the future. When they organize people to feel like victims and justify taking from others, they are eating the good fruit and planting bad fruit.

Well argued Nate. You and I are like minded when it comes to volunteerism and hard work.

But my point is similar to the old saw about being born on third and believing you've hit a homer. Success has as much to do with the advantages your born into as it does effort.

And I'm glad you like chips. Personally I think Ruffles Cheddar and Sour Cream are like crack.

Thank you, kalm. I believe with all my heart that we, as a society, are robbing our children and destroying the future by eating our seed corn. Trying to use government programs to make sure everyone gets to third base is not only impossible, it ensures a reduction in the number of runs scored and jeopardizes the very existence of the game itself.

No, I am not talking about national parks, police, firemen, or military. For that matter I also believe that the space program has benefits which outweight the disadvantages.

What I am talking about are the trillions in unearned entitlements, the loss of property rights which were rightly intended by the founders to be equal to all the other Constitutional rights, the abuse of eminent domain, the loss of personal liberty and opportunity, and the deliberate rise of an unnecessary and destructive politics of class warfare.

The government cannot force into someone's heart what is required to succeed. (Military boot camp does have a high rate of success in doing so - with VOLUNTEERS!) Preachers can do it once in a while, and caring humans can do it for each other once in a while, but the government can only make it worse.

[native]

...but my point is similar to the old saw about being born on third and believing you've hit a homer. Success has as much to do with the advantages your born into as it does effort. ...

I have been a division officer in charge of dozens of troops including junior troops, a coach of rich kids and poor kids, a teacher of English to destitute refugees, and a bill collector.

What I have observed is that three conditions are usually required for success. Material wealth is not one of them. In fact, being born with a silver spoon can often be a handicap for a potential acheiver.

The conditions I have observed are:

1) A desire on the part of the individual to succeed,
2) A more or less predictable environment where bad behavior is punished, good behavior is rewarded, and the individual retains the fruit of his own labor, and
3) Someone in the individual's life who gives a shit.

I have seen it over and over again that an individual who was not "born on third base" succeeds beyond their wildest expectations after they were placed in a predictable environment and were touched by someone who cared for them and believed in them: a teacher, preacher, coach, aunt or uncle, or maybe the squad sargent. In rare cases, a social worker might make a positive difference, but about 80% of the social workers who try to fulfill this role are supremely incompetent and almost as crazy as the mentally ill homeless population.

No, the irony that boot camp is a "government program" is not lost on me, but I hope the distinctions between "voluntary" and "forced," and between "earned" and "unearned" are not lost on you.

[YoUDeeMan]

I have been a division officer in charge of dozens of troops including junior troops, a coach of rich kids and poor kids, a teacher of English to destitute refugees, and a bill collector.

What I have observed is that three conditions are usually required for success. Material wealth is not one of them. In fact, being born with a silver spoon can often be a handicap for a potential acheiver.

The conditions I have observed are:

1) A desire on the part of the individual to succeed,
2) A more or less predictable environment where bad behavior is punished, good behavior is rewarded, and the individual retains the fruit of his own labor, and
3) Someone in the individual's life who gives a ****.

I have seen it over and over again that an individual who was not "born on third base" succeeds beyond their wildest expectations after they were placed in a predictable environment and were touched by someone who cared for them and believed in them: a teacher, preacher, coach, aunt or uncle, or maybe the squad sargent. In rare cases, a social worker might make a positive difference, but about 80% of the social workers who try to fulfill this role are supremely incompetent and almost as crazy as the mentally ill homeless population.

No, the irony that boot camp is a "government program" is not lost on me, but I hope the distinctions between "voluntary" and "forced," and between "earned" and "unearned" are not lost on you.

Well said.

[youngterrier]

Of course you would.

The sense of entitlement amongst the elite and "self reliant" is delicious.

EVERYONE, kalm, is ENTITLED to the fruits of their own labor.

That's why preachers who advocate government redistribution have already admitted defeat, lost their battle and demonstrate a breathtaking lack of faith in their own "faith." That's why "community organizers" have lost their battle. They do more harm than good. Not only do they use the wrong means, they don't even truly understand their own ends. There is neither civil "society" nor true "justice" in "social justice."

Community organizers watching productive people are like monkeys watching humans use tools, then trying to imitate the humans. (My apolologies to monkeys.) Sometimes they get lucky and crack a nut with a rock to eat the fruit of the seed, but life could be so much more than just eating the seeds of the future. When they organize people to feel like victims and justify taking from others, they are eating the good fruit and planting bad fruit.

Ok how many times do we have to explain to you that social justice is not neccesarily something of which the government establishes a welfare state? your ignorance is showing again. we can draw a conclusion via pathos that if catholics advocate social justice but oppose communism that only you have have the paranoid definition of social justice in your head (glenn beck even clarified what he meant by social justice and it was NOT the definition you describe

[native]

EVERYONE, kalm, is ENTITLED to the fruits of their own labor.

That's why preachers who advocate government redistribution have already admitted defeat, lost their battle and demonstrate a breathtaking lack of faith in their own "faith." That's why "community organizers" have lost their battle. They do more harm than good. Not only do they use the wrong means, they don't even truly understand their own ends. There is neither civil "society" nor true "justice" in "social justice."

Community organizers watching productive people are like monkeys watching humans use tools, then trying to imitate the humans. (My apolologies to monkeys.) Sometimes they get lucky and crack a nut with a rock to eat the fruit of the seed, but life could be so much more than just eating the seeds of the future. When they organize people to feel like victims and justify taking from others, they are eating the good fruit and planting bad fruit.

Ok how many times do we have to explain to you that social justice is not neccesarily something of which the government establishes a welfare state? your ignorance is showing again. we can draw a conclusion via pathos that if catholics advocate social justice but oppose communism that only you have have the paranoid definition of social justice in your head (glenn beck even clarified what he meant by social justice and it was NOT the definition you describe

Thanks for chiming in, YT!

I agree with you 100% that "social justice is not necessarily something of which the government establishes a welfare state." I also support those advocates of a "social justice" that is completely voluntary and not government sponsored. So, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and stop whining.

Otherwise, if the shoe fits, could you please follow up with a rational bit of either factual or analytical SUBSTANCE?

In case it has escaped your notice, there are a shitload of Catholics (and catholics, too) in the world, and different groups of them say different things. Do you understand the difference between Catholics and catholics? The reason I ask is that you used the lower case. Was it on purpose?

P.S. Other than the fact that I sometimes challenge you and talk down to you and you think it unjustified and get your feelings hurt, just what in the hell is it that you imagine we disagree about on SUBSTANCE?

[kalm]

Well argued Nate. You and I are like minded when it comes to volunteerism and hard work.

But my point is similar to the old saw about being born on third and believing you've hit a homer. Success has as much to do with the advantages your born into as it does effort.

And I'm glad you like chips. Personally I think Ruffles Cheddar and Sour Cream are like crack.

Thank you, kalm. I believe with all my heart that we, as a society, are robbing our children and destroying the future by eating our seed corn. Trying to use government programs to make sure everyone gets to third base is not only impossible, it ensures a reduction in the number of runs scored and jeopardizes the very existence of the game itself.

No, I am not talking about national parks, police, firemen, or military. For that matter I also believe that the space program has benefits which outweight the disadvantages.

What I am talking about are the trillions in unearned entitlements, the loss of property rights which were rightly intended by the founders to be equal to all the other Constitutional rights, the abuse of eminent domain, the loss of personal liberty and opportunity, and the deliberate rise of an unnecessary and destructive politics of class warfare.

The government cannot force into someone's heart what is required to succeed. (Military boot camp does have a high rate of success in doing so - with VOLUNTEERS!) Preachers can do it once in a while, and caring humans can do it for each other once in a while, but the government can only make it worse.

Easy now, I said good argument, I didn't say you were right.

Remember, we are supposed to be the government.

[native]

Thank you, kalm. I believe with all my heart that we, as a society, are robbing our children and destroying the future by eating our seed corn. Trying to use government programs to make sure everyone gets to third base is not only impossible, it ensures a reduction in the number of runs scored and jeopardizes the very existence of the game itself.

No, I am not talking about national parks, police, firemen, or military. For that matter I also believe that the space program has benefits which outweight the disadvantages.

What I am talking about are the trillions in unearned entitlements, the loss of property rights which were rightly intended by the founders to be equal to all the other Constitutional rights, the abuse of eminent domain, the loss of personal liberty and opportunity, and the deliberate rise of an unnecessary and destructive politics of class warfare.

The government cannot force into someone's heart what is required to succeed. (Military boot camp does have a high rate of success in doing so - with VOLUNTEERS!) Preachers can do it once in a while, and caring humans can do it for each other once in a while, but the government can only make it worse.

Easy now, I said good argument, I didn't say you were right.

Remember, we are supposed to be the government.

You know in your heart I am right on this one, kalm.

[youngterrier]

Ok how many times do we have to explain to you that social justice is not neccesarily something of which the government establishes a welfare state? your ignorance is showing again. we can draw a conclusion via pathos that if catholics advocate social justice but oppose communism that only you have have the paranoid definition of social justice in your head (glenn beck even clarified what he meant by social justice and it was NOT the definition you describe

Thanks for chiming in, YT!

I agree with you 100% that "social justice is not necessarily something of which the government establishes a welfare state." I also support those advocates of a "social justice" that is completely voluntary and not government sponsored. So, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and stop whining.

Otherwise, if the shoe fits, could you please follow up with a rational bit of either factual or analytical SUBSTANCE?

In case it has escaped your notice, there are a shitload of Catholics (and catholics, too) in the world, and different groups of them say different things. Do you understand the difference between Catholics and catholics? The reason I ask is that you used the lower case. Was it on purpose?

P.S. Other than the fact that I sometimes challenge you and talk down to you and you think it unjustified and get your feelings hurt, just what in the hell is it that you imagine we disagree about on SUBSTANCE?

I was using a phone, which is why it was lower case (it took 10 minutes to erase what was in front of it)

I don't disagree with you much in terms of what we need to do to improve our situation economically, but honestly I think you're what's wrong with the conservative movement. For instance, you called out an entire group of people who advocate Social Justice communists who we're NOT communists (and you called my dad a communist which he by no means is he). That does not help your/our cause when we wander from the issues and resort to name calling. Our defense should not be "he's a communist/ your stealing from me/ you hate America" but rather WHY the the viewpoint doesn't work logically, constitutionally, and economically and otherwise all you're doing is shouting at people and closing people's minds toward the conservative movement because they don't want to be associated with such a DB and your stances on said issues sound crazy but because you made yourself sound like such a DB they're not going to want to listen and your argument is unheard. That's the reason I don't watch Beck and the like because their rhetoric is making good people hate what I stand for. The fact that you acknowledge that you talk down to me is just another example, maybe if you DIDN'T talk down to people they'd agree with you more often

[native]

Thanks for chiming in, YT!

I agree with you 100% that "social justice is not necessarily something of which the government establishes a welfare state." I also support those advocates of a "social justice" that is completely voluntary and not government sponsored. So, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and stop whining.

Otherwise, if the shoe fits, could you please follow up with a rational bit of either factual or analytical SUBSTANCE?

In case it has escaped your notice, there are a shitload of Catholics (and catholics, too) in the world, and different groups of them say different things. Do you understand the difference between Catholics and catholics? The reason I ask is that you used the lower case. Was it on purpose?

P.S. Other than the fact that I sometimes challenge you and talk down to you and you think it unjustified and get your feelings hurt, just what in the hell is it that you imagine we disagree about on SUBSTANCE?

I was using a phone, which is why it was lower case (it took 10 minutes to erase what was in front of it)

I don't disagree with you much in terms of what we need to do to improve our situation economically, but honestly I think you're what's wrong with the conservative movement. For instance, you called out an entire group of people who advocate Social Justice communists who we're NOT communists (and you called my dad a communist which he by no means is he). That does not help your/our cause when we wander from the issues and resort to name calling. Our defense should not be "he's a communist/ your stealing from me/ you hate America" but rather WHY the the viewpoint doesn't work logically, constitutionally, and economically and otherwise all you're doing is shouting at people and closing people's minds toward the conservative movement because they don't want to be associated with such a DB and your stances on said issues sound crazy but because you made yourself sound like such a DB they're not going to want to listen and your argument is unheard. That's the reason I don't watch Beck and the like because their rhetoric is making good people hate what I stand for. The fact that you acknowledge that you talk down to me is just another example, maybe if you DIDN'T talk down to people they'd agree with you more often

Stealing is stealing. Communists are communists. Anybody who supports "social justice" without disavowing BOTH violence AND government redistrubution deserves to be called a communist. Do you not recognize the genuine communists embedded in the "social justice" movement? If you cannot tell the difference you deserve to be talked down to.

Everyone gets individual treatment from me, pup. I talk down to dawg a lot more than you, yet you don't see him whining. I don't talk down to another group of posters with whom I disagree on substance far more often than I disagree with you, but these folks, like Ursus, kalm, Appy and Blue Pants, are more rational, accurate and complete in their facts and analysis, and willing to honestly admit a mistake or concede a point - with good humor!

But you must also recognize that there is obviously a lot of jocular (i.e. sophomoric) humor and BS on this web site.

Whether you like it or not, I expect more from you because I see above average intelligence, sincerity and integrity in your posts. I am trying to challenge you, pup, to connect the dots of intelligence and insight to be found in your own posts. So far you are failing miserably. Do you also have trouble finding the right shoe size?

You think I am what's wrong with the conservative movement? I think you exhibit a lack of critical judgment which jeopardizes the future. Your unwillingness to recognize the greatest evil of our lifetime and associate it with our President who bragged in his autobiography about being steeped in marxism is truly frightening. To solve societal problems, you have to be willing to honestly call a spade a spade, and not just accept the status quo and go along to get along.

If your generation which voted for Obama and believes in socialism does not get its collective head out of its arse, you will have richly earned the economic and political failure and turmoil over which you will be presiding in a couple of decades.

Just for the record, I have not yet given up on you or your generation, YT.