Are the Constitution and the Gospel in Conflict?

[soul man]

We disagree about Mr. Beck.

[CitadelGrad]

Gospel: the good news of Christ

What about the bad news? You know, that whole burning in a lake of fire for eternity thing.

[soul man]

That's there too

[native]

We disagree about Mr. Beck.

Why not just cut to the chase and explain the Methodist doctrine of "social justice?"

[houndawg]

We disagree about Mr. Beck.

Why not just cut to the chase and explain the Methodist doctrine of "social justice?"

A Methodist is just a Baptist that can read.

[youngterrier]

Why not just cut to the chase and explain the Methodist doctrine of "social justice?"

A Methodist is just a Baptist that can read.

I was taught the opposite

[native]

We disagree about Mr. Beck.

We could agree that Beck's histrionics can be distracting.

[native]

This is the way I see it, soul man: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So I judge our American nationalism in this way:

With the horrible exception of slavery and the failure of Reconstruction, our nation was born and grew up allowing people the greatest possible freedom to follow Christ's commandments in the Gospels. Up until the last several decades, our system by and large did not interfere with people who followed their own consciences in this regard. However, over the course of time, laws have been implemented and/or (mis)interpreted, which interfere with and denigrate both loving God and loving your neighbor. In fact these laws and their proponents interfere egregiously in people's lives regardless of their religious convictions. For example, the laws which take from one neighbor to give to another are not consistent either loving God nor loving your neighbor. Such laws interfere with the ability of all people to do so.

[soul man]

Here are some scriptures I would like to hear your thoughts upon:

John Chapter 21
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

and

Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.


My interpretation is that in scriptures like this (and several others throughout the bible), Christians have a responsibility to care for the poor.

[soul man]

This is the way I see it, soul man: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So I judge our American nationalism in this way:

With the horrible exception of slavery and the failure of Reconstruction, our nation was born and grew up allowing people the greatest possible freedom to follow Christ's commandments in the Gospels. Up until the last several decades, our system by and large did not interfere with people who followed their own consciences in this regard. However, over the course of time, laws have been implemented and/or (mis)interpreted, which interfere with and denigrate both loving God and loving your neighbor. In fact these laws and their proponents interfere egregiously in people's lives regardless of their religious convictions. For example, the laws which take from one neighbor to give to another are not consistent either loving God nor loving your neighbor. Such laws interfere with the ability of all people to do so.

Which comes first for you the flag or the cross? faith or patriotism? Has there ever been a time when your faith beliefs have been a corrective on your patriotism?

[soul man]

Here are some of the social principles of the UMC from umc.org

Property
¶ 163 A) Property—We believe private ownership of property is a trusteeship under God, both in those societies where it is encouraged and where it is discouraged, but is limited by the overriding needs of society.

We believe that Christian faith denies to any person or group of persons exclusive and arbitrary control of any other part of the created universe. Socially and culturally conditioned ownership of property is, therefore, to be considered a responsibility to God.

We believe, therefore, governments have the responsibility, in the pursuit of justice and order under law, to provide procedures that protect the rights of the whole society as well as those of private ownership.

From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church - 2004. Copyright 2004 by The United Methodist Publishing House. Used by permission.

Poverty

¶ 163 E) Poverty—In spite of general affluence in the industrialized nations, the majority of persons in the world live in poverty. In order to provide basic needs such as food, clothing, shelter, education, health care, and other necessities, ways must be found to share more equitably the resources of the world. Increasing technology, when accompanied by exploitative economic practices, impoverishes many persons and makes poverty self-perpetuating. Poverty due to natural catastrophes and environmental changes is growing and needs attention and support. Conflicts and war impoverish the population on all sides, and an important way to support the poor will be to work for peaceful solutions.

As a church, we are called to support the poor and challenge the rich. To begin to alleviate poverty, we support such policies as: adequate income maintenance, quality education, decent housing, job training, meaningful employment opportunities, adequate medical and hospital care, humanization and radical revisions of welfare programs, work for peace in conflict areas and efforts to protect creation’s integrity. Since low wages are often a cause of poverty, employers should pay their employees a wage that does not require them to depend upon government subsidies such as food stamps or welfare for their livelihood.

Because we recognize that the long-term reduction of poverty must move beyond services to and employment for the poor, which can be taken away, we emphasize measures that build and maintain the wealth of poor people, including asset-building strategies such as individual development savings accounts, micro-enterprise development programs, programs enabling home ownership, and financial management training and counseling. We call upon churches to develop these and other ministries that promote asset-building among the poor. We are especially mindful of the Global South, where investment and micro-enterprise are especially needed. We urge support for policies that will encourage equitable economic growth in the Global South and around the world, providing a just opportunity for all.

Poverty most often has systemic causes, and therefore we do not hold poor people morally responsible for their economic state.

From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church - 2008. Copyright 2008 by The United Methodist Publishing House. Used by permission.


Please realize, that lockstep agreement to these principles is not a requirement of membership.

Diversity of thought is one of the hallmarks of United Methodism:

"Beyond the essentials of vital religion, United Methodists respect the diversity of opinions held by conscientious persons of faith. Wesley followed a time-tested approach: "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity."

The spirit of charity takes into consideration the limits of human understanding. "To be ignorant of many things and to be mistaken in some," Wesley observed, "is the necessary condition of humanity." The crucial matter in religion is steadfast love for God and neighbor, empowered by the redeeming and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.

I hope that helps.

[native]

Here are some scriptures I would like to hear your thoughts upon:

John Chapter 21
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

and

Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.


My interpretation is that in scriptures like this (and several others throughout the bible), Christians have a responsibility to care for the poor.

Absoluetely. What have I said that causes you to think that I feel differently? Christians have a responsibility to care for the poor, but not take from their neighbors to do so.

Do you think the quoted Scriptures encourage taking from one neighbor to give to another?

[native]

This is the way I see it, soul man: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So I judge our American nationalism in this way:

With the horrible exception of slavery and the failure of Reconstruction, our nation was born and grew up allowing people the greatest possible freedom to follow Christ's commandments in the Gospels. Up until the last several decades, our system by and large did not interfere with people who followed their own consciences in this regard. However, over the course of time, laws have been implemented and/or (mis)interpreted, which interfere with and denigrate both loving God and loving your neighbor. In fact these laws and their proponents interfere egregiously in people's lives regardless of their religious convictions. For example, the laws which take from one neighbor to give to another are not consistent either loving God nor loving your neighbor. Such laws interfere with the ability of all people to do so.

Which comes first for you the flag or the cross? faith or patriotism? Has there ever been a time when your faith beliefs have been a corrective on your patriotism?

My patriotism is not an impediment to my faith, soul man.

There are other impediments, however. There have been many times in my life when my faith has been a corrective upon my behavior. Perhaps not quite as many as I might have needed.

And there are still more impediments - thank goodness I am not a Methodist!

[native]

Thanks for sharing about Methodism.

Regarding John Wesley's disctum that "The crucial matter in religion is steadfast love for God and neighbor, empowered by the redeeming and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit," do you believe that government reditributionist live up to this aspiration, or are they in contradiction?

Is it true that John Wesley was a lifelong Anglican, never denoucing his membership in that Communion?

[native]

We disagree about Mr. Beck.

Is it Mr. Beck with whom you disagree, soul man, or the founders? Do you fear the property rights and personal liberties guaranteed in the Constitution?

[soul man]

Here are some scriptures I would like to hear your thoughts upon:

John Chapter 21
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

and

Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.


My interpretation is that in scriptures like this (and several others throughout the bible), Christians have a responsibility to care for the poor.

Absoluetely. What have I said that causes you to think that I feel differently? Christians have a responsibility to care for the poor, but not take from their neighbors to do so.

Do you think the quoted Scriptures encourage taking from one neighbor to give to another?

I am glad to see your ideas about responsibility to the poor. I had concluded from a number of your posts that property rights trumped everything---take from neighbors, the whole social justice critique and all.

[soul man]

Thanks for sharing about Methodism.

Regarding John Wesley's disctum that "The crucial matter in religion is steadfast love for God and neighbor, empowered by the redeeming and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit," do you believe that government reditributionist live up to this aspiration, or are they in contradiction?

Is it true that John Wesley was a lifelong Anglican, never denoucing his membership in that Communion?

Wesley never had in mind starting a denomination.
The church should not be the handmaiden for the state nor the other way around.

[soul man]

We disagree about Mr. Beck.

Is it Mr. Beck with whom you disagree, soul man, or the founders? Do you fear the property rights and personal liberties guaranteed in the Constitution?

I disagree with Mr. Beck's assessment of church leaders as socialists or communists.

I do not "fear" those things; I do, however, have a different understanding of property, wealth, etc. All that we have is God's; we are just stewards of all of that.

It sounds like that at times property rights trump the Gospel

[native]

Is it Mr. Beck with whom you disagree, soul man, or the founders? Do you fear the property rights and personal liberties guaranteed in the Constitution?

I disagree with Mr. Beck's assessment of church leaders as socialists or communists.

I do not "fear" those things; I do, however, have a different understanding of property, wealth, etc. All that we have is God's; we are just stewards of all of that.

It sounds like that at times property rights trump the Gospel

Comparing the Gospel to property rights regulated by a secular government is a false dichotomy and cop out. Those who favor and promote the forced redistrubition of wealth - church leaders included - richly and justly deserve the epithet "socialist" and "communist."

The best possible guarantee that property and wealth will be cared for in good stewardship would be to restore property rights - sans slavery - to their original place of equality with other personal rights enumerated in the Constitution.

[native]

Thanks for sharing about Methodism.

Regarding John Wesley's disctum that "The crucial matter in religion is steadfast love for God and neighbor, empowered by the redeeming and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit," do you believe that government reditributionist live up to this aspiration, or are they in contradiction?

Is it true that John Wesley was a lifelong Anglican, never denoucing his membership in that Communion?

Wesley never had in mind starting a denomination.

The church should not be the handmaiden for the state nor the other way around.

If it is true that the church should not be the handmaiden of the state, then it would not be possible for a church leader in good faith to favor forced redistribution of wealth.

[soul man]

I disagree with Mr. Beck's assessment of church leaders as socialists or communists.

I do not "fear" those things; I do, however, have a different understanding of property, wealth, etc. All that we have is God's; we are just stewards of all of that.

It sounds like that at times property rights trump the Gospel

Comparing the Gospel to property rights regulated by a secular government is a false dichotomy and cop out. Those who favor and promote the forced redistrubition of wealth - church leaders included - richly and justly deserve the epithet "socialist" and "communist."

The best possible guarantee that property and wealth will be cared for in good stewardship would be to restore property rights - sans slavery - to their original place of equality with other personal rights enumerated in the Constitution.

Native, I don't see it as a cop out, but the point of this discussion. If my stuff is mine, and not God's, the stuff (property) becomes an idol. An idol that we choose not to share, because it is "mine".

[soul man]

Wesley never had in mind starting a denomination.

The church should not be the handmaiden for the state nor the other way around.

If it is true that the church should not be the handmaiden of the state, then it would not be possible for a church leader in good faith to favor forced redistribution of wealth.

and as I have said before, I don't know any church leaders who favor forced distribution of wealth.

[Skjellyfetti]

What denomination are you, native?

[native]

What denomination are you, native?

I used to be Episcopalian, skelly.

You?

[native]

Comparing the Gospel to property rights regulated by a secular government is a false dichotomy and cop out. Those who favor and promote the forced redistrubition of wealth - church leaders included - richly and justly deserve the epithet "socialist" and "communist."

The best possible guarantee that property and wealth will be cared for in good stewardship would be to restore property rights - sans slavery - to their original place of equality with other personal rights enumerated in the Constitution.

Native, I don't see it as a cop out, but the point of this discussion. If my stuff is mine, and not God's, the stuff (property) becomes an idol. An idol that we choose not to share, because it is "mine".

If you are saying that the church can and should scold/encourage/teach its own adherents, then we agree, soul man. If you are saying it's a government responsibility, nothing could be more wrong.