What Corporate Taxes?

Political discussions
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 69119
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

What Corporate Taxes?

Post by kalm »

Guess we're not taxing success so much after all. :thumbdown:

Discuss.
ExxonMobil: $35 billion in profit, zero in corporate taxes
8:34 am April 7, 2010, by Jay

I spent part of a beautiful weekend doing my taxes; the results were not very pretty, and as a result we’ll be writing a good-sized check to the IRS in the next few days.

But maybe I should just declare myself a corporation, like General Electric. I mean, if corporations can be people, then people can be corporations, right? Last year, according to a Forbes report, GE reported a pretax profit of more than $10 billion yet somehow managed to pay nothing to the US Treasury. In fact, it banked a tax benefit of $1.1 billion against future profits.

ExxonMobil, Forbes found, reported pretax profits of $35 billion but no tax liability to Uncle Sam. Chevron made $18.5 billion in pretax profits, and paid $200 million in U.S. corporate income taxes. Bank of America made $4.4 billion and paid no corporate income tax; according to Forbes, BoA won’t be doing so for years.

As the Forbes story points out, many companies lower their U.S. tax liabilities by parking a lot of their profits overseas in countries with lower tax rates. That would seem, at first glance, an argument for lowering U.S. corporate taxes.


However, the effective corporate tax rate in the United States is actually fairly low and certainly competitive when compared to other industrialized nations, as the graphic from the World Bank’s “Doing Business” report demonstrates. (Note that the effective corporate rate in China, where many industrial jobs are migrating, is considerably higher than in the U.S.)

In addition, many companies aren’t moving actual economic activity and the jobs that come with them to low-tax countries; they are relocating them only on paper. Exxon, for example, “tries to limit the tax pain with the help of 20 wholly owned subsidiaries domiciled in the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands,” Forbes writes. Those countries aren’t actual industrialized economies competing with the US for jobs; they are tax scams with a flag and an embassy.

Maybe that’s what I need to do. Maybe I should open a Jay Bookman subsidiary in Bermuda and assign it all my earnings. Sure, I’d probably have to go visit that subsidiary pretty often, just to keep up appearances. But hey, I hear Bermuda’s nice.

Of course, if everybody started doing that, Bermuda might get so crowded that it would tip over. And THEN where would we be?


http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2 ... okman_blog" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exx ... taxes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
Image
Image
OL FU
Level3
Level3
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:25 pm
I am a fan of: Furman
Location: Greenville SC

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by OL FU »

I am good with scrapping the tax code and starting over :thumb:
OL FU
Level3
Level3
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:25 pm
I am a fan of: Furman
Location: Greenville SC

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by OL FU »

I heard a journalist from the Economist say in England, he goes on line, spends an hour filling in blanks on a government website, clicks submit and the government sends him a bill for his taxes. Whereas here, we gather up all types of paper to take to a tax preparer who charges a large amount of money creates lots of paper that the tax payer does not understand, signs the documents while worrying that everything is correct so they won't go to jail.

We have one effed up tax code.
danefan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:51 pm
I am a fan of: UAlbany
Location: Hudson Valley, New York

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by danefan »

A lot of truth in those statements. A lot.

You can't blame companies for moving earnings offshore. Our tax code and the tax treaties we have signed with just about every industrialized nation allow for it.
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 69119
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by kalm »

danefan wrote:A lot of truth in those statements. A lot.

You can't blame companies for moving earnings offshore. Our tax code and the tax treaties we have signed with just about every industrialized nation allow for it.
Agreed, you're stupid to not seek every possible advantage within the law.

I just find this information interesting in light of the frequent statement that we have the highest corporate tax rates in the world, and that we need to cut taxes on the wealthy and corporations when those groups are paying a lower effective rate (in some cases 0%) than the average tea-bagger. Yet I'm guessing those corporations use far more government resources through the court system, pollution, fire, police, military etc than the average teabagger.

Where's the outrage?
Image
Image
Image
Baldy
Level4
Level4
Posts: 9921
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Southern

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by Baldy »

Sweet. :notworthy: :thumb:
User avatar
travelinman67
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 9884
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:51 pm
I am a fan of: Portland State Vikings
A.K.A.: Modern Man
Location: Where the 1st Amendment still exists: CS.com

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by travelinman67 »

OL FU wrote:I heard a journalist from the Economist say in England, he goes on line, spends an hour filling in blanks on a government website, clicks submit and the government sends him a bill for his taxes. Whereas here, we gather up all types of paper to take to a tax preparer who charges a large amount of money creates lots of paper that the tax payer does not understand, signs the documents while worrying that everything is correct so they won't go to jail.

We have one effed up tax code.
Under current conditions, the IRS and in CA, the FTB, zealously pursue corporations who attempt to make a go of it under U.S. tax law. I've filed corporate for years, and IMHO, unless a tax attorney is employed, the taxman will plow a business under within 5 years. I could cite numerous "contradictory" rules (mostly regarding Interstate Commerce), but the trick is in knowing which ones to comply with, and (facing risk of criminal charges) which ones to ignore.

What Kalm hasn't experienced is the daily barrage of "routine" letters/RFI's from tax agencies, which administratively, account for a large portion of a corporation's overhead (legal). Unfortunately, more than healthcare, the tax code (and agencies) are the most fucked up part of U.S. govt., but our legislators will never face up to the task of attempting to redress this failing as it represents their mother's milk.

Great news for tax lawyers.
"That is how government works - we tell you what you can do today."
- EPA Kommissar Gina McCarthy
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 69119
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:Sweet. :notworthy: :thumb:
Well played Baldy! If I were you I'd go no-substance/antagonistic on this one too. :thumb:
Image
Image
Image
danefan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:51 pm
I am a fan of: UAlbany
Location: Hudson Valley, New York

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by danefan »

kalm wrote:
danefan wrote:A lot of truth in those statements. A lot.

You can't blame companies for moving earnings offshore. Our tax code and the tax treaties we have signed with just about every industrialized nation allow for it.
Agreed, you're stupid to not seek every possible advantage within the law.

I just find this information interesting in light of the frequent statement that we have the highest corporate tax rates in the world, and that we need to cut taxes on the wealthy and corporations when those groups are paying a lower effective rate (in some cases 0%) than the average tea-bagger. Yet I'm guessing those corporations use far more government resources through the court system, pollution, fire, police, military etc than the average teabagger.

Where's the outrage?
The while our effective tax rates are pretty low, we also don't provide any real incentives to get people to invest in the US. For example, places like Switzerland provide what are known as "Tax Holidays" to companies who provide a substantial investment in a less developed portion of their country. For example, they'll give a 10-year 2% rate on all income for companies that create 100 high paying jobs.

Puerto Rico did the same thing for a while for pharmaceutical manufacturing activities. Ireland does the same.

That is something we don't do. And companies are moving their operations overseas because of it. Its not necessarily a theoretical flaw in our system, but with technology as good as it is, you can easily do a job in Switerland or Puerto Rico or even Singapore that used to have to be done in the US (oversight, management, quality assurance, etc...)
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 69119
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by kalm »

travelinman67 wrote:
OL FU wrote:I heard a journalist from the Economist say in England, he goes on line, spends an hour filling in blanks on a government website, clicks submit and the government sends him a bill for his taxes. Whereas here, we gather up all types of paper to take to a tax preparer who charges a large amount of money creates lots of paper that the tax payer does not understand, signs the documents while worrying that everything is correct so they won't go to jail.

We have one effed up tax code.
Under current conditions, the IRS and in CA, the FTB, zealously pursue corporations who attempt to make a go of it under U.S. tax law. I've filed corporate for years, and IMHO, unless a tax attorney is employed, the taxman will plow a business under within 5 years. I could cite numerous "contradictory" rules (mostly regarding Interstate Commerce), but the trick is in knowing which ones to comply with, and (facing risk of criminal charges) which ones to ignore.

What Kalm hasn't experienced is the daily barrage of "routine" letters/RFI's from tax agencies, which administratively, account for a large portion of a corporation's overhead (legal). Unfortunately, more than healthcare, the tax code (and agencies) are the most **** up part of U.S. govt., but our legislators will never face up to the task of attempting to redress this failing as it represents their mother's milk.

Great news for tax lawyers.
I don't get a daily barage, and our state has no income tax, but my dealings with the IRS and the State Department of Revenue are enough of a pain in the ass. I agree that both healthcare and state and federal tax systems need some serious reform.

Still doesn't excuse the corporate welfare mentioned in the article. :coffee:
Image
Image
Image
danefan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:51 pm
I am a fan of: UAlbany
Location: Hudson Valley, New York

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by danefan »

travelinman67 wrote:
OL FU wrote:I heard a journalist from the Economist say in England, he goes on line, spends an hour filling in blanks on a government website, clicks submit and the government sends him a bill for his taxes. Whereas here, we gather up all types of paper to take to a tax preparer who charges a large amount of money creates lots of paper that the tax payer does not understand, signs the documents while worrying that everything is correct so they won't go to jail.

We have one effed up tax code.
Under current conditions, the IRS and in CA, the FTB, zealously pursue corporations who attempt to make a go of it under U.S. tax law. I've filed corporate for years, and IMHO, unless a tax attorney is employed, the taxman will plow a business under within 5 years. I could cite numerous "contradictory" rules (mostly regarding Interstate Commerce), but the trick is in knowing which ones to comply with, and (facing risk of criminal charges) which ones to ignore.

What Kalm hasn't experienced is the daily barrage of "routine" letters/RFI's from tax agencies, which administratively, account for a large portion of a corporation's overhead (legal). Unfortunately, more than healthcare, the tax code (and agencies) are the most fucked up part of U.S. govt., but our legislators will never face up to the task of attempting to redress this failing as it represents their mother's milk.

Great news for tax lawyers.
:nod:
User avatar
dbackjon
Moderator Team
Moderator Team
Posts: 45627
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:20 am
I am a fan of: Northern Arizona
A.K.A.: He/Him
Location: Scottsdale

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by dbackjon »

Shameful. And shows how screwed up our tax code is.

What Congress needs to do is grow a pair and close all of the loopholes, and provide REAL incentive to keep money onshore. The IRS needs to AGGRESSIVELY audit these companies to stop the practice of recording profit overseas, and expenses at home, which I can assure you companies do.

They need to pay their fair share.

And also shows how misleading the corporate lobbyists are.
:thumb:
danefan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:51 pm
I am a fan of: UAlbany
Location: Hudson Valley, New York

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by danefan »

dbackjon wrote:Shameful. And shows how screwed up our tax code is.

What Congress needs to do is grow a pair and close all of the loopholes, and provide REAL incentive to keep money onshore. The IRS needs to AGGRESSIVELY audit these companies to stop the practice of recording profit overseas, and expenses at home, which I can assure you companies do.

They need to pay their fair share.

And also shows how misleading the corporate lobbyists are.
They have done that. There are new regulations (effective last year) that require US companies to charge their foreign subsidiaries for expenses related to "headquarter" type services provided in the US.

The audit point is another issue. The Tax Code is so complicated that the IRS will never be able to keep up with private firms. They simply cannot pay good people enough to work for them. Walking into a meeting with most IRS agents is a joke. Most of them don't know the history, policy or detailed workings of the law they are suuposedly trying to enforce. The IRS is full of non-lawyer agents trying to interpret complex laws written by lawyers. I can't tell you how many times we get to the Department of Justice (who represents the Treasury Department when a tax issue goes to Court) and the DOJ attorneys agree with us!

BTW, despite being wholly incompetent most of the time, IRS agents aren't bad people as some on this board would like to profess. They are simply underfunded and undertrained.
User avatar
ASUMountaineer
Level4
Level4
Posts: 5047
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:38 pm
I am a fan of: Appalachian State
Location: The Old North State

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by ASUMountaineer »

dbackjon wrote:Shameful. And shows how screwed up our tax code is.

What Congress needs to do is grow a pair and close all of the loopholes, and provide REAL incentive to keep money onshore. The IRS needs to AGGRESSIVELY audit these companies to stop the practice of recording profit overseas, and expenses at home, which I can assure you companies do.

They need to pay their fair share.

And also shows how misleading the corporate lobbyists are.
Not to mention how misleading the congressmen are who listen to the lobbyists. Of course, forcing these companies to pay more, means citizens will pay more. Danefan brought up some good points and ideas. :thumb:
Appalachian State Mountaineers:

National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007
Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012


NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by AZGrizFan »

dbackjon wrote:Shameful. And shows how screwed up our tax code is.

What Congress needs to do is grow a pair and close all of the loopholes, and provide REAL incentive to keep money onshore. The IRS needs to AGGRESSIVELY audit these companies to stop the practice of recording profit overseas, and expenses at home, which I can assure you companies do.

They need to pay their fair share.

And also shows how misleading the corporate lobbyists are.
All they need to do is scrap the tax code, Jonny. The rest of that blather will take care of itself.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
Baldy
Level4
Level4
Posts: 9921
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Southern

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote:Sweet. :notworthy: :thumb:
Well played Baldy! If I were you I'd go no-substance/antagonistic on this one too. :thumb:
Wrong again...

You already know my position that individuals and corporations shouldn't be paying income taxes, period.

I celebrate companies who are smart enough to do it. This way they won't be able to push their tax burden, like they do their other COGS, onto their customers. Lower prices for consumers. That is a good thing, wouldn't you agree? :thumb:
OL FU
Level3
Level3
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:25 pm
I am a fan of: Furman
Location: Greenville SC

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by OL FU »

danefan wrote:
dbackjon wrote:Shameful. And shows how screwed up our tax code is.

What Congress needs to do is grow a pair and close all of the loopholes, and provide REAL incentive to keep money onshore. The IRS needs to AGGRESSIVELY audit these companies to stop the practice of recording profit overseas, and expenses at home, which I can assure you companies do.

They need to pay their fair share.

And also shows how misleading the corporate lobbyists are.


BTW, despite being wholly incompetent most of the time, IRS agents aren't bad people as some on this board would like to profess. They are simply underfunded and undertrained.
One of the reasons I don't complain about the IRS. Congress is to blame.
blueballs
Level3
Level3
Posts: 2590
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:00 am
I am a fan of: Cap'n's porn collection
A.K.A.: blueballs
Location: Central FL, where bums have to stay in their designated area on the sidewalk

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by blueballs »

http://www.fairtax.org would effectively eliminate corporate income taxes and trun the USA into the largest corporate tax haven in the world. Prettty much all the US corporations who park the earnings and headquarters offshore would return, as well as other companies from around the world. Think of all the new jobs and opportunity!!!!!!
Blueballs: The ultimate 'bad case of the wants.'
OL FU
Level3
Level3
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:25 pm
I am a fan of: Furman
Location: Greenville SC

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by OL FU »

blueballs wrote:http://www.fairtax.org would effectively eliminate corporate income taxes and trun the USA into the largest corporate tax haven in the world. Prettty much all the US corporations who park the earnings and headquarters offshore would return, as well as other companies from around the world. Think of all the new jobs and opportunity!!!!!!
Blue, the more I think about it the more I am with you. but as we have discussed you take away 1/2 of the power of congress with the fair tax. The only way this happens is to get them all drunk and tell them they are voting against re-instating Bush's tax cuts. ;)
houndawg
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25092
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:14 pm
I am a fan of: SIU
A.K.A.: houndawg
Location: Egypt

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by houndawg »

OL FU wrote:I am good with scrapping the tax code and starting over :thumb:
:thumb: Way, way overdue.

I'm also good with deporting the board of directors of these companies that benefit from our system and don't pay ther fair share. Since we keep hearing about how corporations have all the rights of a person, how about they have the reponsibilities too? Like three strikes and you're out...
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.


"I really love America. I just don't know how to get there anymore."John Prine
OL FU
Level3
Level3
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:25 pm
I am a fan of: Furman
Location: Greenville SC

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by OL FU »

houndawg wrote:
OL FU wrote:I am good with scrapping the tax code and starting over :thumb:
:thumb: Way, way overdue.

I'm also good with deporting the board of directors of these companies that benefit from our system and don't pay ther fair share. Since we keep hearing about how corporations have all the rights of a person, how about they have the reponsibilities too? Like three strikes and you're out...
I don't think I want to deport people who LEGALLY avoid taxes. I would rather just change the law :nod: ;)
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20316
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by JohnStOnge »

I think we need to wait a while and see what happens with this story. If Exxon Mobil did not pay any taxes for 2009 that would be extremly unusual. I've followed what goes on with Exxon finances for a few years because of all the hulabaloo about their profits and the consistent pattern is that they pay 10s of billions of dollars in taxes. Here is one article describing that:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/63131-e ... 30-billion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is very difficult to believe that all of a sudden they went to paying zero taxes. We shall see.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20316
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by JohnStOnge »

Didn't take long. Here, apparently, is the guy who originally reported that Exxon Mobil paid no US taxes basically retracting what he said:

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/20 ... ome-taxes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A quote:

"My mistake was in thinking that these figures somehow reflected actual tax benefits and liabilities. So what we should have written was that ExxonMobil 'recorded' no U.S. income taxes for 2009 instead of 'paid.' All you re-bloggers out there, please note the clarification. Mea culpa."
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20316
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by JohnStOnge »

Didn't take long. Here, apparently, is the guy who originally reported that Exxon Mobil paid no US taxes basically retracting what he said:

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/20 ... ome-taxes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A quote:

"My mistake was in thinking that these figures somehow reflected actual tax benefits and liabilities. So what we should have written was that ExxonMobil 'recorded' no U.S. income taxes for 2009 instead of 'paid.' All you re-bloggers out there, please note the clarification. Mea culpa."
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 69119
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: What Corporate Taxes?

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:Didn't take long. Here, apparently, is the guy who originally reported that Exxon Mobil paid no US taxes basically retracting what he said:

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/20 ... ome-taxes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A quote:

"My mistake was in thinking that these figures somehow reflected actual tax benefits and liabilities. So what we should have written was that ExxonMobil 'recorded' no U.S. income taxes for 2009 instead of 'paid.' All you re-bloggers out there, please note the clarification. Mea culpa."
No he wasn't.
Image
Image
Image
Post Reply