Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

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Should children born in the U.S. of illegal alien parents be considered US citizens by birthright?

No
16
52%
Yes
12
39%
Not sure
3
10%
 
Total votes: 31

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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by native »

JMU DJ wrote:
native wrote:
If it is so crystal clear as you have interpreted it, then why were the children born here of American Indians excluded from citizenship and why are the children born here of diplomats excluded from citizenship?
Ever heard of the Indian Citizenship Act? ....
Yes! The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924, was implemented long after - and in part because - the Supreme Court ruled in 1884 that "no one can become a citizen of a nation without its consent."

Why did it take an Act to overturn the original intent of the 14th Amendment to provide for American Indian citizenship? Why shouldn't it take a similar Act to do the same for illegal aliens?
Last edited by native on Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by danefan »

native wrote:
danefan wrote:Look, Native, its clear your agenda here. You don't want children of illegal aliens born in the US to be US citizens. I get that. I also get that you can make an argument for that position.

But guess what, your argument does the exact thing that an argument for gay marriage rights does. It takes the plain language of the Constitution and interprets it in the way you need it to be interpretted using certain things to support it but not all the facts out there.

Its apparently OK for you to do it when it fits your agenda. But its treason for a liberal to do it to fit their agenda. Treason I SAY!

I'm done here. The Constitution provides a clear test for Citizenship. If you don't like it have your Congressman reintroduce the Citizenship Reform Act or heck even have him draft a Constitutional Amendment. That's your right. And that's where the beauty of the Constitution is found. Not in some dusty old books from 1787.
You almost got it right, danefan. I actually do not believe that the children born in the U.S. of illegal alien parents ARE U.S. citizens. I understand and respect the fact that you disagree. But just because your opinion is in the majority on this subject at this time does not make you right, or me wrong, or vica versa.

Give up on me, but don't give up so easily on your argument in favor of your position. Examine the arguments on the merits. You should be able to do so better than me. I am not being unfair or inconsistent in my analysis - at least you have not yet shown me to be. Don't be afraid to walk your positions through to their logical conclusions.
I've alread walked my conclusions through to the end. I'm not about to sit here and educate you on it. And I'm not about to be subject to some half-assed attempt at the socratic method whereby you think you somehow will "teach" the people on this board something about the way you see the Constitution. If you want to make a point, make it. If not, move on.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by youngterrier »

danefan wrote:
native wrote:
You almost got it right, danefan. I actually do not believe that the children born in the U.S. of illegal alien parents ARE U.S. citizens. I understand and respect the fact that you disagree. But just because your opinion is in the majority on this subject at this time does not make you right, or me wrong, or vica versa.

Give up on me, but don't give up so easily on your argument in favor of your position. Examine the arguments on the merits. You should be able to do so better than me. I am not being unfair or inconsistent in my analysis - at least you have not yet shown me to be. Don't be afraid to walk your positions through to their logical conclusions.
I've alread walked my conclusions through to the end. I'm not about to sit here and educate you on it. And I'm not about to be subject to some half-assed attempt at the socratic method whereby you think you somehow will "teach" the people on this board something about the way you see the Constitution. If you want to make a point, make it. If not, move on.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by native »

danefan wrote: ... I've alread walked my conclusions through to the end. ....
...while ignoring salient points.

Please tell me what salient points of fact you would like me to engage.
Last edited by native on Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by native »

danefan wrote: ... And I'm not about to be subject to some half-assed attempt at the socratic method whereby you think you somehow will "teach" the people on this board something about the way you see the Constitution. If you want to make a point, make it. If not, move on.
I don't expect to teach you anything or convince you of my point of view, danefan, but I do hope that you will engage salient points in good faith.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by JohnStOnge »

There is no question that the Constitution makes them US citizens. But I looked at the question as asking whether or not that should be the case. I say no. I think the Constitution should be amended so that only people born to US citizens are automatically US citizens. For instance: A child born to parents who are both US citizens who happened to be stationed in Germany at the time should be a US citizen. A child born to a Mexican woman who jumps over the border should not be.

For a child to be a US citizen by birth, at least one parent should have to be a US citizen. And there is nothing wrong with changing the Constitution so long as it's changed through the process provided in it. A change to the Constitution through the amendment process is clearly Constitutional.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by dbackjon »

JohnStOnge wrote:There is no question that the Constitution makes them US citizens. But I looked at the question as asking whether or not that should be the case. I say no. I think the Constitution should be amended so that only people born to US citizens are automatically US citizens. For instance: A child born to parents who are both US citizens who happened to be stationed in Germany at the time should be a US citizen. A child born to a Mexican woman who jumps over the border should not be.

For a child to be a US citizen by birth, at least one parent should have to be a US citizen. And there is nothing wrong with changing the Constitution so long as it's changed through the process provided in it. A change to the Constitution through the amendment process is clearly Constitutional.
While I don't know if I would support such an amendment, that is clearly the route needed if you don't want them to be citizens.

Question - what would you do if the parents are in the country legally - for example, in the process of becoming U.S. citizens? Take one the of doctors in my practice - from India, great job, etc. He and his wife are in the process of becoming U.S. citizens. Would you require their children, born in the US, to be naturalized as well?
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by Col Hogan »

native wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
No, clearly, per the Constitution, children born in this country to people here illegally are U.S. citizens...the parents are not...

The parents need to be deported...and as parents, they have a choice to make...leave their child here with someone who is here legally...or take the child back to the parents native country...once that child is of majority age, he/she can legally come to this country as a full citizen...

But having a child in this country is not an instant get-out-of-jail free card for the parents...

Nothing activist about that...

You are a smart and fair minded guy who has fallen into the trap of accepting conventional wisdom, Colonel. If you truly believe that the Constitution means that anyone born here is a citizen, then the children of diplomats would be citizens, and that is clearly not the case. Please read what the framers of the 14th Amendment actually wrote.

I hope I'm fair minded....so I've gone back, re-read this entire thread...and I've come to the conclusion that my original statement is still my opinion...that a child, born in this country (to a non-diplomat who has special status under law and is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States) is , in fact, a citizen...

The parents are not citizens, but are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States under immigration law and therefore deportable...the citizenship of their child is not a protection for their law breaking...

And jelly...it's not morally right to allow them to stay...they broke the law...the child gets to stay with its parents...
Last edited by Col Hogan on Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by JohnStOnge »

Question - what would you do if the parents are in the country legally - for example, in the process of becoming U.S. citizens? Take one the of doctors in my practice - from India, great job, etc. He and his wife are in the process of becoming U.S. citizens. Would you require their children, born in the US, to be naturalized as well?
I think that should be open to discussion. As a citizen I would be willing to Amend the Constitution to account for situations like that. The main thing is that I would like to see the Constitution changed so that being physically born in the United States does not mean an automatic citizenship regardless of the circumstances. The problems with doing it that way are, to me, obvious.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by Wedgebuster »

The lines on the earth that were imposed by man, are man made.

We are all passengers on the space ship earth. :nod:
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by native »

Wedgebuster wrote:The lines on the earth that were imposed by man, are man made.

We are all passengers on the space ship earth. :nod:
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by Appaholic »

native wrote:
danefan wrote:
Legislative history matters to me when the plain language of law (in this case, the Constitution) does not provide the answer.
The "plain language" as you have interpreted it does not account for the failure of our government to accord citizenship status to the children born here of foreign diplomats, or the previous failure to accord citizenship to the children born here of American Indians. Why not, danefan?
My guess would be this...when the constitution was written, the overwhelming majority of births were conducted within the home, not at a hospital. I believe within the historical frame of reference, the authors, assuming the child would be born at home, meant that Indian children were an exception as their home is on a sovereign Indian nation / reservation. Children of diplomats would have been born at "home" within a embassy where the property is technically soverign & excepted from laws of the host nation. Does this make any sense? Just a guess....
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by txstatebobcat »

This is actually somewhat of a problem in the border area. A lot of middle class Mexicans come over legally so that their kids are born in the US. These people have money so I have some doubts whether they are getting government assistance to pay the hospital or not. When they are school age they actually cross the border every day to attend public school, at least until last year. Back in August or September of last year in Eagle Pass, Tx (population of around 20,000) the school district kicked out around 400 kids that were doing this. There are probably a couple of hundred others that are attending a private school and as such they are still crossing the border every day (legally of course). IMO these kids truly grow up to have conflicting loyalties. While most will know english, they will speak with an accent and if one were to ask them their nationality more than likely they will answer Mexican. Under these circumstances I think that the kids should be declared non-citizens, with that said their parents did everything by the book so I doubt anything could be done unless the law changes.

Now on to the illegals. There is a family that I know of where the two older kids (twin brothers that were 5 or 6 at the time) were carried on their parent's shoulder while crossing the Rio Grande en route to the US. This was around 15 years ago. Now fast forward to the present time. The parents had two more kids (currently 8 and 12). The younger kids' Spanish is atrocious to the point where only their parents can have a decent conversation for them. Their English on the other hand is perfectly normal for kids their age. The kids prefer to talk in English amongst themselves and I doubt that their children will speak any Spanish at all. As far as the older kids are concerned one got into trouble with the law and gangs and was deported around two years ago and is currently living in Mexico. The other one graduated high school and is currently an apprentice to be an electrician.

That the parents and the older brother are illegal immigrants there is no doubt, and if they were to deported then it would be a consequence of a decision they took 15 years ago. Although I must admit I would feel horrible for the young man whose only fault is that he came here illegally as a child. The kids on the other hand are US citizens through and through. Their allegiance is unquestionably to the US to the point where these kids would have trouble adjusting to life in Mexico and would yearn to come back as soon as their were old enough.

There is a huge difference between some diplomat's child and some illegal immigrant's children.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

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Who cares?

Grass will need mowing, cotton will need picking, etc- and as Mrs. Ivytalk will tell you, somebody has to test the bungee cords to make sure they're not too long- in future generations as well so we might as well start breeding them now...
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by Ivytalk »

Hell,no! Keep the little buggers out of here. The sins of the fathers are visited on the children. Deport them all.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by SDHornet »

This is an easy yes. The 14th Amendment seems pretty clear to me. What happens to the parents is another issue. I like the idea that someone posted about having the parents go back (assuming they get deported) and have the option to take the child with them or leave them with someone here. The US citizen could then come over to the US when they are an adult or sooner if someone is willing to be their legal guardian. :twocents:
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by BDKJMU »

Immigration law is clear that the anchor kids can be deported with the parents if there is no-one legally in the US who can be appointed as a legal guardian. The kids once they reach 18 can return to the US on their own if they choose.

The government isn't ever the reason that families are split up. The parents are the reason in that they chose to enter the US illegally (or enter legally but remain illegally after overstaying a visa) and when being deported chose to leave their kids(s) with an appointed legal guardian in the US.

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Last edited by BDKJMU on Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by GannonFan »

As others have said, the Constitution is crystal clear on this - if you're born here, you're a citizen.

With that said, I have no problem with BDJMU's view - if no one is here to be a legal guardian, they can leave with their folks and come back if they like when they are 18. And deporting parents even with a child here (being left with a legal legal guardian) is fine by me. At some point I'd like to see a tightening of immigration controls and doing something to settle the status of those here (even if it falls under what others would call amnesty), but the current situation paints a clear picture.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by BDKJMU »

This is from Wiki:

"Citizenship Clause
Main article: Citizenship Clause

There are varying interpretations of the original intent of Congress, based on statements made during the congressional debate over the amendment.[5] During the original debate over the amendment Senator Jacob M. Howard of Michigan—the author of the Citizenship Clause—described the clause as excluding American Indians who maintain their tribal ties, and “persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.” He was supported by other senators, including Edgar Cowan, Reverdy Johnson, and Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lyman Trumbull.[6] Howard further stated the term jurisdiction meant "the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now"[6] and that the United States possessed a “full and complete jurisdiction” over the person described in the amendment.[7][8][6] Other senators, including Senator John Conness,[9] supported the amendment, believing citizenship should cover all children born in the United States.

In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (1884), the clause's meaning was tested regarding whether it meant that anyone born in the United States would be a citizen regardless of the parents' nationality. In that case, the Supreme Court held that the children of Native Americans were not citizens, despite the fact that they were born in the United States.

The meaning was tested again in the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) regarding children of non-citizen Chinese immigrants born in United States. The court ruled that the children were U.S. citizens.[10]

The difference between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants was not clear at the time of the decision of Wong Kim Ark.[11] According to The Heritage Foundation, which maintains that Congress possesses the power to exclude children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents from U.S. citizenship by legislation, neither in that decision nor any subsequent case has the Supreme Court explicitly ruled on whether such children are entitled to birthright citizenship via the amendment,[12] although that has generally been assumed to be the case.[13] In some cases, the Court has implicitly assumed, or suggested in dicta, that such children are entitled to birthright citizenship: these include INS v. Rios-Pineda, 471 U.S. 444 (1985)[14] and Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982).[15]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So it would be nice if the Supreme Ct actually ruled on this.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by BDKJMU »

If a constitutional amendment was proposed for something, can you make an amendment to a current amendment to the Constitution, or would a whole new amendment have to be created?

Reason I ask, I doubt it would happen, but it would be nice if the Republicans and maybe some moderate democrats held out as a condition of passing any type of comprehensive immigration reform 1st an amendment to the constitution be passed ending the rampant abuse of citizenship by anchor baby.

14th reads:
..."Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws...."

If the 1st line changed to something like:

"All persons born in the United States to at least one United States citizen parent or naturalized in the United States...

Wouldn't that take care of the anchor baby problem? After all, what other industrialized nation grants automatic citizenship to anyone born there?

1st getting control of the border and taking care of the anchor baby problem before doing any comprehensive immigration reform would prevent putting the cart before the horse so to speak.
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Re: Do Illegal Alien Children Have a "Birthright?"

Post by danefan »

BDKJMU wrote:If a constitutional amendment was proposed for something, can you make an amendment to a current amendment to the Constitution, or would a whole new amendment have to be created?

Reason I ask, I doubt it would happen, but it would be nice if the Republicans and maybe some moderate democrats held out as a condition of passing any type of comprehensive immigration reform 1st an amendment to the constitution be passed ending the rampant abuse of citizenship by anchor baby.

14th reads:
..."Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws...."

If the 1st line changed to something like:

"All persons born in the United States to at least one United States citizen parent or naturalized in the United States...

Wouldn't that take care of the anchor baby problem? After all, what other industrialized nation grants automatic citizenship to anyone born there?

1st getting control of the border and taking care of the anchor baby problem before doing any comprehensive immigration reform would prevent putting the cart before the horse so to speak.
The 18th repealed the 21st, so I see no reason why you couldn't amend the 14th with the 28th. Even if its amendment by substitution.
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