Incentives Not To Work

[Appaholic]

Yep.....& my unemployed wife will be "actively seeking employment" while were on vacation in Arizona next month & logging in once a week to file for her unemployment benefits courtesy of this extension....sorry, but she's not taking a **** job paying $10/hr which will lower her benefit amount if needed in the future since it's based on your pay history while she can collect $490 per week. If that offends some people, tough ****. She's paid into the system for 30 years without ever receiving one fokking penny in unemployment. We have no children yet pay the same amount of taxes to support schools as a family with 10 kids without ever receiving a childcare tax credit. Also, just sent a check to IRS for $1785 yesterday so I just wrote my Senator (Burr) yesterday to inform him that he has lost my vote this year since he voted NAY on this extension. Sure, the extension is an additional $18bil, but it provides more of a "stimulus", especially in small local economies, than any thing else the government has tried.....

And that is the difference between 4% unemployment and lower public debt in a free economy and 10% unemployment with higher public debt in a European-socialist-style economy. As Appy says, tough sh!t.

Good for Appaholic! It took balls to tell the truth.

OBVIOUSLY, we are ALL ENTITLED... to owe the Chinese and be slaves for the next century.

Sure we are....and if the government wants to quit collecting unemployment insurance on behalf of me & my employer at every pay period, my wife & I will be more than happy to quit filing for the benefits. However, we make no apologies for receiving the maximum benefit that we have funded diligently at every pay period for the past 45 years of our combined work history. We'll never collect what we've paid into the system.....& let's not even go there regarding how much we've both paid into SS vs what we are likely to collect...

Obviously, all are not entitled....In our case, it is an entitlement mentality....if you've paid in for years, then you are entitled to draw a little back out....

[Grizalltheway]

Yep.....& my unemployed wife will be "actively seeking employment" while were on vacation in Arizona next month & logging in once a week to file for her unemployment benefits courtesy of this extension....sorry, but she's not taking a **** job paying $10/hr which will lower her benefit amount if needed in the future since it's based on your pay history while she can collect $490 per week. If that offends some people, tough ****. She's paid into the system for 30 years without ever receiving one fokking penny in unemployment. We have no children yet pay the same amount of taxes to support schools as a family with 10 kids without ever receiving a childcare tax credit. Also, just sent a check to IRS for $1785 yesterday so I just wrote my Senator (Burr) yesterday to inform him that he has lost my vote this year since he voted NAY on this extension. Sure, the extension is an additional $18bil, but it provides more of a "stimulus", especially in small local economies, than any thing else the government has tried.....

And that is the difference between 4% unemployment and lower public debt in a free economy and 10% unemployment with higher public debt in a European-socialist-style economy. As Appy says, tough sh!t.

Good for Appaholic! It took balls to tell the truth.

OBVIOUSLY, we are ALL ENTITLED... to owe the Chinese and be slaves for the next century.

Have you looked at the unemployment rates in European countries other than Spain?

[native]

And that is the difference between 4% unemployment and lower public debt in a free economy and 10% unemployment with higher public debt in a European-socialist-style economy. As Appy says, tough sh!t.

Good for Appaholic! It took balls to tell the truth.

OBVIOUSLY, we are ALL ENTITLED... to owe the Chinese and be slaves for the next century.

Have you looked at the unemployment rates in European countries other than Spain?

Yup. 10%

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... b3_Jx9jI_g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lots of interesting stuff online. It's something of an art to be able to compare rates from one country to the next.

[Grizalltheway]

Have you looked at the unemployment rates in European countries other than Spain?

Yup. 10%

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... b3_Jx9jI_g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lots of interesting stuff online. It's something of an art to be able to compare rates from one country to the next.

Regardless of what the aggregate number is, the more 'socialist' Scandinavian countries are usually around 3-5%.

[HI54UNI]

And that is the difference between 4% unemployment and lower public debt in a free economy and 10% unemployment with higher public debt in a European-socialist-style economy. As Appy says, tough sh!t.

Good for Appaholic! It took balls to tell the truth.

OBVIOUSLY, we are ALL ENTITLED... to owe the Chinese and be slaves for the next century.

Sure we are....and if the government wants to quit collecting unemployment insurance on behalf of me & my employer at every pay period, my wife & I will be more than happy to quit filing for the benefits. However, we make no apologies for receiving the maximum benefit that we have funded diligently at every pay period for the past 45 years of our combined work history. We'll never collect what we've paid into the system.....& let's not even go there regarding how much we've both paid into SS vs what we are likely to collect...

Obviously, all are not entitled....In our case, it is an entitlement mentality....if you've paid in for years, then you are entitled to draw a little back out....

The employee and employer each contribute to the unemployment fund? Here is it just the employer.

[native]

Yup. 10%

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... b3_Jx9jI_g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lots of interesting stuff online. It's something of an art to be able to compare rates from one country to the next.

Regardless of what the aggregate number is, the more 'socialist' Scandinavian countries are usually around 3-5%.

The Scandinavian model is interesting. Although the current Swedish unemployment rate is 9.3%, historical unemployment rates for the past couple of decades in Scandinavian countries have been low.

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/unemployment_rate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although the mixed Scandinavian economies have some benefits, the trade-off for lower unemployment has been higher taxes, lower productivity, and lower GDP growth, and it is not clear that the artificially created low unemployment rates are sustainable.

A conservative European journal article, although dated, explodes the myth of Scandinavian prosperity:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A more recent European "progressive" journal notes the increasing inability of the Sandinavian model to hold down unemployment:

http://www.social-europe.eu/2009/09/eur ... dish-case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting topic for discussion, gatw. Interesting variations on economic models.

http://workforall.net/ScandinavianModel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... 11/English" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/feature ... alization/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BDKJMU]

And that is the difference between 4% unemployment and lower public debt in a free economy and 10% unemployment with higher public debt in a European-socialist-style economy. As Appy says, tough sh!t.

Good for Appaholic! It took balls to tell the truth.

OBVIOUSLY, we are ALL ENTITLED... to owe the Chinese and be slaves for the next century.

Sure we are....and if the government wants to quit collecting unemployment insurance on behalf of me & my employer at every pay period, my wife & I will be more than happy to quit filing for the benefits. However, we make no apologies for receiving the maximum benefit that we have funded diligently at every pay period for the past 45 years of our combined work history. We'll never collect what we've paid into the system.....& let's not even go there regarding how much we've both paid into SS vs what we are likely to collect...

Obviously, all are not entitled....In our case, it is an entitlement mentality....if you've paid in for years, then you are entitled to draw a little back out....

I don't know. I think for every year your employer pay unemployment taxes on you I thought it only covered a couple of weeks of unemployment. If you collected for 2 years wouldn't that eat up around 50 years worth of unemployment taxes? Too lazy to look it up further...

[Skjellyfetti]

Agreed - Sk, I don't think you have any knowledge of what you're talking about here. The criteria in PA for having to "actively seek work" is to put a check in a check box saying that you are looking for work. You do that once every two weeks to claim 2 weeks worth of benefits. That's it - no audit trail, no need to submit copies of jobs you've applied to or write-ups of what networking activities you've done. It's not hard to imagine that people could scam the system if they want to.

And, if you AREN'T actively seeking work that employment... you would be lying, right?

And, I've already said I'm not familiar with the law, and I know it would be difficult to prosecute... but, I would consider lying on government documents in order to receive government assistance to be welfare fraud.

I'm not saying people don't do this... I'm saying that people that do are fucking lowlife scum. And the fact that people do this doesn't mean the idea of unemployment benefits is a bad thing.

[Grizalltheway]

Regardless of what the aggregate number is, the more 'socialist' Scandinavian countries are usually around 3-5%.

The Scandinavian model is interesting. Although the current Swedish unemployment rate is 9.3%, historical unemployment rates for the past couple of decades in Scandinavian countries have been low.

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/unemployment_rate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although the mixed Scandinavian economies have some benefits, the trade-off for lower unemployment has been higher taxes, lower productivity, and lower GDP growth, and it is not clear that the artificially created low unemployment rates are sustainable.

A conservative European journal article, although dated, explodes the myth of Scandinavian prosperity:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A more recent European "progressive" journal notes the increasing inability of the Sandinavian model to hold down unemployment:

http://www.social-europe.eu/2009/09/eur ... dish-case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting topic for discussion, gatw. Interesting variations on economic models.

http://workforall.net/ScandinavianModel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... 11/English" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/feature ... alization/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is indeed interesting. Scandinavians obviously have an entirely different mentality and culture than we do, so I'm not suggesting that their system would work for us, but it clearly works for them.

[native]

... Scandinavians obviously have an entirely different mentality and culture than we do, so I'm not suggesting that their system would work for us, but it clearly works for them.

Not so clear that the Scandinavian model is sustainable.

[BDKJMU]

Agreed - Sk, I don't think you have any knowledge of what you're talking about here. The criteria in PA for having to "actively seek work" is to put a check in a check box saying that you are looking for work. You do that once every two weeks to claim 2 weeks worth of benefits. That's it - no audit trail, no need to submit copies of jobs you've applied to or write-ups of what networking activities you've done. It's not hard to imagine that people could scam the system if they want to.

And, if you AREN'T actively seeking work that employment... you would be lying, right?

And, I've already said I'm not familiar with the law, and I know it would be difficult to prosecute... but, I would consider lying on government documents in order to receive government assistance to be welfare fraud.

I'm not saying people don't do this... I'm saying that people that do are **** lowlife scum. And the fact that people do this doesn't mean the idea of unemployment benefits is a bad thing.

No one is said unemployment benefits for a limited time (say 13-26 weeks) is a bad thing. What many are saying is unemployment benefits for 2 years or more when all you have to do is check a little box that says you're looking for work is a bad thing. Its so easily abused its a joke, just like the EITC.

[clenz]

Agreed - Sk, I don't think you have any knowledge of what you're talking about here. The criteria in PA for having to "actively seek work" is to put a check in a check box saying that you are looking for work. You do that once every two weeks to claim 2 weeks worth of benefits. That's it - no audit trail, no need to submit copies of jobs you've applied to or write-ups of what networking activities you've done. It's not hard to imagine that people could scam the system if they want to.

And, if you AREN'T actively seeking work that employment... you would be lying, right?

And, I've already said I'm not familiar with the law, and I know it would be difficult to prosecute... but, I would consider lying on government documents in order to receive government assistance to be welfare fraud.

I'm not saying people don't do this... I'm saying that people that do are fucking lowlife scum. And the fact that people do this doesn't mean the idea of unemployment benefits is a bad thing.

I'm betting a majority if people collecting unemployment for more than 2 or 3 months would qualify as "low life scum"

[Skjellyfetti]

I'm betting a majority if people collecting unemployment for more than 2 or 3 months would qualify as "low life scum"

Perhaps during normal times... But, not during this past recession. Just my opinion, though.

[clenz]

I'm betting a majority if people collecting unemployment for more than 2 or 3 months would qualify as "low life scum"

Perhaps during normal times... But, not during this past recession. Just my opinion, though.

There may be more "legit" claims recently, but the number of people knowing the economy is what it is that file and don't really look for jobs is going to go up as well.


The system is fucked up and abused by over 50%, probably a much higher percent than that.

You have people like c-man who is trying to get jobs, but isn't have luck so he collects it. However, you can tell he really wants a job. For every mounter there is, I would bet there is 4 or 5 people like my sister. Especially in the poorer states, and in states like California where there is a very high rate of people who think the government should fix everything for them.



I really wish I was wrong on this issue, but I don't believe I am. We have talked about the numbers of people in the system, and the number of "known abusers", in my classes due to the fact my major deals mostly (80-95% of the time) with low to very low income families. We have a class where we spend a majority of it learning to look for signs of people who abuse the system, and they aren't hard to spot.

This isn't just for unemployment either, that is the sad part. The same things can be said for W.I.C., food stamps, and pretty much every other government hand out program. The food stamp and W.I.C. programs are getting better with preventing fraud, but the abusers seem to be 3 steps a head of the system right now

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Sure we are....and if the government wants to quit collecting unemployment insurance on behalf of me & my employer at every pay period, my wife & I will be more than happy to quit filing for the benefits. However, we make no apologies for receiving the maximum benefit that we have funded diligently at every pay period for the past 45 years of our combined work history. We'll never collect what we've paid into the system.....& let's not even go there regarding how much we've both paid into SS vs what we are likely to collect...

Obviously, all are not entitled....In our case, it is an entitlement mentality....if you've paid in for years, then you are entitled to draw a little back out....

The employee and employer each contribute to the unemployment fund? Here is it just the employer.

Same way in Montana. There is no unemployment paid by employees. I do work for a few companies and all of the unemployment rates either doubled or nearly doubled for 2010 and none of the companies have had a single unemployment claim against them.

The State Unemployment Division in Idaho and I assume around the country are in some real trouble and are shoe stringing it with Federal money for the time being. This shit should be a safety net for a set amount of time and then you are on your own to figure out what you want to do. Extending these benefits is hurting businesses in MT & ID but there isn't a good easy answer to get out of it.

[Hansel]

Regardless of what the aggregate number is, the more 'socialist' Scandinavian countries are usually around 3-5%.

The Scandinavian model is interesting. Although the current Swedish unemployment rate is 9.3%, historical unemployment rates for the past couple of decades in Scandinavian countries have been low.

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/unemployment_rate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although the mixed Scandinavian economies have some benefits, the trade-off for lower unemployment has been higher taxes, lower productivity, and lower GDP growth, and it is not clear that the artificially created low unemployment rates are sustainable.

A conservative European journal article, although dated, explodes the myth of Scandinavian prosperity:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A more recent European "progressive" journal notes the increasing inability of the Sandinavian model to hold down unemployment:

http://www.social-europe.eu/2009/09/eur ... dish-case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting topic for discussion, gatw. Interesting variations on economic models.

http://workforall.net/ScandinavianModel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... 11/English" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/feature ... alization/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Scandies make a ton of money off of Oil.. how was there system doing before that?

[native]

The Scandinavian model is interesting. Although the current Swedish unemployment rate is 9.3%, historical unemployment rates for the past couple of decades in Scandinavian countries have been low.

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/unemployment_rate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although the mixed Scandinavian economies have some benefits, the trade-off for lower unemployment has been higher taxes, lower productivity, and lower GDP growth, and it is not clear that the artificially created low unemployment rates are sustainable.

A conservative European journal article, although dated, explodes the myth of Scandinavian prosperity:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A more recent European "progressive" journal notes the increasing inability of the Sandinavian model to hold down unemployment:

http://www.social-europe.eu/2009/09/eur ... dish-case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting topic for discussion, gatw. Interesting variations on economic models.

http://workforall.net/ScandinavianModel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... 11/English" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/feature ... alization/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Scandies make a ton of money off of Oil.. how was there system doing before that?

Among Scandinavian countries, the benefits of North Sea oil fields accrue only to Norway, accounting for perhaps as much as 20 of Norwegian productivity and keeping the Norwegians a couple of points (or more) ahead of the rest of the Scandinavian economies in annual GDP.

The Norwegians were among the poorest countries in the world when they declared themselves independent of the Swedes in 1905. Since that time, they have proven resourceful and innovative in utilizing timber and hydro resources, prior to the discovery of oil in the North Sea.

[Appaholic]

Sure we are....and if the government wants to quit collecting unemployment insurance on behalf of me & my employer at every pay period, my wife & I will be more than happy to quit filing for the benefits. However, we make no apologies for receiving the maximum benefit that we have funded diligently at every pay period for the past 45 years of our combined work history. We'll never collect what we've paid into the system.....& let's not even go there regarding how much we've both paid into SS vs what we are likely to collect...

Obviously, all are not entitled....In our case, it is an entitlement mentality....if you've paid in for years, then you are entitled to draw a little back out....

I don't know. I think for every year your employer pay unemployment taxes on you I thought it only covered a couple of weeks of unemployment. If you collected for 2 years wouldn't that eat up around 50 years worth of unemployment taxes? Too lazy to look it up further...

I was speaking in more generic terms of what we've paid overall in taxes, not what we have paid (or not paid apparantly) in unemployment. We have no kids in public education, we've never had a break-in at our house requiring police, never had a fire requiring the fire department, etc, etc....my wife collecting unemployment is the 1st time we've needed to pull out of the gevernment something that we've paid in....

[Appaholic]

Sure we are....and if the government wants to quit collecting unemployment insurance on behalf of me & my employer at every pay period, my wife & I will be more than happy to quit filing for the benefits. However, we make no apologies for receiving the maximum benefit that we have funded diligently at every pay period for the past 45 years of our combined work history. We'll never collect what we've paid into the system.....& let's not even go there regarding how much we've both paid into SS vs what we are likely to collect...

Obviously, all are not entitled....In our case, it is an entitlement mentality....if you've paid in for years, then you are entitled to draw a little back out....

The employee and employer each contribute to the unemployment fund? Here is it just the employer.

Maybe it's that way in NC too. However, that's money that an employer could be putting in the employee's pocket directly but is mandated to give to government instead on employee's behalf. So, after all those years of paying in our name, we need some....