I am declaring war on the Tea Party supporters...

[Ibanez]

There are some arguments that are worth the time. This one isn't. Whether the cost is comparable is not really the point. how intrusive and all encompassing is. health care, cap and trade, impact everyone. It is government reaching into the life of every individual. I am not arguing the rights and wrongs here that is for a different threaed. The point I was making was the argument that there are tipping points that wake people up and Obama's agenda is that tipping point.

It is ok not to agree with the Tea Party. But it is either misinformation or disingenious to assume that the entire movement (for lack of a better word) is simply a racist reaction to a black president.

Agreed..
But "the tipping point" doesn't logically seem like more spending, as that's been going on since Reagan set spending records - the tipping point seems more likely to be the one completely unique factor.. and couple that with signs with the word nigger on them and it doesn't take Sherlock Holms to come to any conclusions

My Point: The Republicans don't like the Tea Party being called racists reactionaries I certainly understand and in some ways completely agree - but it would be a lot easier to "get behind" the Tea Party or at least take them seriously if they did two things...
1) Didn't have Nigger on their signs
2) Complained about unique issues new to this administration

Just my 2 cents...
I actually like having the Tea Party around it's a fun topic and a great study of human nature and pop culture

I agree. The problems they complain about have been around longer than Obama has been President and the FACT that they didn't start up until after his inaugaration goes to show that it seems to be more Anti Obama/democrate than Anti Big Government and Reckless Spending.

[OL FU]

There are some arguments that are worth the time. This one isn't. Whether the cost is comparable is not really the point. how intrusive and all encompassing is. health care, cap and trade, impact everyone. It is government reaching into the life of every individual. I am not arguing the rights and wrongs here that is for a different threaed. The point I was making was the argument that there are tipping points that wake people up and Obama's agenda is that tipping point.

It is ok not to agree with the Tea Party. But it is either misinformation or disingenious to assume that the entire movement (for lack of a better word) is simply a racist reaction to a black president.

Agreed..
But "the tipping point" doesn't logically seem like more spending, as that's been going on since Reagan set spending records - the tipping point seems more likely to be the one completely unique factor.. and couple that with signs with the word nigger on them and it doesn't take Sherlock Holms to come to any conclusions

My Point: The Republicans don't like the Tea Party being called racists reactionaries I certainly understand and in some ways completely agree - but it would be a lot easier to "get behind" the Tea Party or at least take them seriously if they did two things...
1) Didn't have Nigger on their signs
2) Complained about unique issues new to this administration

Just my 2 cents...
I actually like having the Tea Party around it's a fun topic and a great study of human nature and pop culture

Cleets, I love you but you missed the point. Reagon and the tea party should not be in discussion. I have said it over and over again and I really don't even know why it continues. 25 to 30 years ago and a completely different time.

You also missed the tipping point clearly on the problem. Deficits prior to Obama $500B and less. Deficits now 1.5T and continuing in the future. Not a big deal really. And I am not arguing whether those are really Bush's deficits, doesn't matter. They happened when the happened and it opened eyes. Maybe I am dense, but what has really happend in my opinion is that now that we have a downturn the true cost of government is out in the open and people don't like it and they are scared by it. You can take a different view if you like. But if the numbers don't justify a tipping point in peoples opinion, then nothin ever will.

As I said before, I am sure that racism is part of certain individuals in the tea party. But that doesn't mean the group as a whole is racist.

You know I occasionally sit at a table with a guy that occasionally uses the "N" word. I don't like it worth a shit and occasionally tell him that. But I still sit there. Maybe that makes me a racist. How 'bout you?

[Chizzang]

Agreed..
But "the tipping point" doesn't logically seem like more spending, as that's been going on since Reagan set spending records - the tipping point seems more likely to be the one completely unique factor.. and couple that with signs with the word nigger on them and it doesn't take Sherlock Holms to come to any conclusions

My Point: The Republicans don't like the Tea Party being called racists reactionaries I certainly understand and in some ways completely agree - but it would be a lot easier to "get behind" the Tea Party or at least take them seriously if they did two things...
1) Didn't have Nigger on their signs
2) Complained about unique issues new to this administration

Just my 2 cents...
I actually like having the Tea Party around it's a fun topic and a great study of human nature and pop culture

Cleets, I love you but you missed the point. Reagon and the tea party should not be in discussion. I have said it over and over again and I really don't even know why it continues. 25 to 30 years ago and a completely different time.

You also missed the tipping point clearly on the problem. Deficits prior to Obama $500B and less. Deficits now 1.5T and continuing in the future. Not a big deal really. And I am not arguing whether those are really Bush's deficits, doesn't matter. They happened when the happened and it opened eyes. Maybe I am dense, but what has really happend in my opinion is that now that we have a downturn the true cost of government is out in the open and people don't like it and they are scared by it. You can take a different view if you like. But if the numbers don't justify a tipping point in peoples opinion, then nothin ever will.

As I said before, I am sure that racism is part of certain individuals in the tea party. But that doesn't mean the group as a whole is racist.

You know I occasionally sit at a table with a guy that occasionally uses the "N" word. I don't like it worth a shit and occasionally tell him that. But I still sit there. Maybe that makes me a racist. How 'bout you?

For starters:
I only throw Reagan out there as a launching point in history for "outrageous spending" from the party that brought you smaller Government...

I'm referring to the Liberal perspective not the conservative perspective - Liberals are like: What..? You make racially charged statements and complain about 40 year old issues and tell me this is a "new movement"...

Republicans can spin it however they want... Tipping point being all new deficit highs and such
Liberals will counter that with what I just said

It's a "stalemate" of ridiculous proportion - and that makes me happy

[OL FU]

Cleets, I love you but you missed the point. Reagon and the tea party should not be in discussion. I have said it over and over again and I really don't even know why it continues. 25 to 30 years ago and a completely different time.

You also missed the tipping point clearly on the problem. Deficits prior to Obama $500B and less. Deficits now 1.5T and continuing in the future. Not a big deal really. And I am not arguing whether those are really Bush's deficits, doesn't matter. They happened when the happened and it opened eyes. Maybe I am dense, but what has really happend in my opinion is that now that we have a downturn the true cost of government is out in the open and people don't like it and they are scared by it. You can take a different view if you like. But if the numbers don't justify a tipping point in peoples opinion, then nothin ever will.

As I said before, I am sure that racism is part of certain individuals in the tea party. But that doesn't mean the group as a whole is racist.

You know I occasionally sit at a table with a guy that occasionally uses the "N" word. I don't like it worth a **** and occasionally tell him that. But I still sit there. Maybe that makes me a racist. How 'bout you?

For starters:
I only throw Reagan out there as a launching point in history for "outrageous spending" from the party that brought you smaller Government...

I'm referring to the Liberal perspective not the conservative perspective - Liberals are like: What..? You make racially charged statements and complain about 40 year old issues and tell me this is a "new movement"...

Republicans can spin it however they want... Tipping point being all new deficit highs and such
Liberals will counter that with what I just said

It's a "stalemate" of ridiculous proportion - and that makes me happy

Strange how you ignored the most important part of the post about racism

Perspective like beauty is in the eye of the beholder I presume. But the premise you state is more than a little skewed. Reagon's defict has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Military build up and a tip of the hat to democrats that voted for his tax cuts etc. The deficits were temporary and were for national defense. Agree or disagree with the policies, there were not inteded to be nor was there a need for them to be permanant. We can discuss every President since but what is the point.

I think you have summed it up well. The Tea partiers should simply shut their yap because spending has always been a problem, forget that the deficit has tripled and the current president's agenda is the most intrusive one of any president from an economic standpoint that I can remember. I suppose the point is that there is never a good time to open your eyes and say enough is enough, especially not when we have a black president because certainly you will be a racist.

It is a funny thing. The morning after the election I was probably never more proud of my country. While we still have a ways to go, we have certainly come a long way. I am still proud of they fact that we have come this far, but that doesn't mean that I think highly of Mr. President's agenda. But I am certain that every damn one of those tea partiers just simply hate the fact that a black man is running the country. Shit what else could it be.

[OL FU]

PS, anybody noticed Arizona where the Tea Party is taking on an old white guy by the name of McCain who is in the process of showing us all why people hate republicans too.

McCain is no longer a Maverick.
McCain no longer supports a path to citizenship for illegals.
McCain has turned into Arizona's version of Jim DeMint

Gotta say what it takes to get elected.

[Chizzang]

Dude, I get it...
And I'll be the first to tell you I'm not excited about our "new direction" and not excited about our "Hope" platform... There is an awful lot to complain about

But part of creating a valid argument is removing items that allow you to be easily dismissed by those you wish to make your point to... Again: I got no problem with the Tea Party and I think and have always thought that protest - in fact more protest than we seem capable of - is very necessary...

Mostly this whole argument has been "social semantics" which I find endlessly entertaining

[OL FU]

Dude, I get it...
And I'll be the first to tell you I'm not excited about our "new direction" and not excited about our "Hope" platform... There is an awful lot to complain about

But part of creating a valid argument is removing items that allow you to be easily dismissed by those you wish to make your point to... Again: I got no problem with the Tea Party and I think and have always thought that protest - in fact more protest than we seem capable of - is very necessary...

Mostly this whole argument has been "social semantics" which I find endlessly entertaining

The history of protest in this country is easily dismissed because in every group there are fruitcakes or nutballs that can't be removed. Look at the war protest of the 60s. Serious stuff but you had the nut cakes. Look at green protestors. Serious stuff but the nuts make them look silly. So from that perspective, I agree. The teapartiers look silly because they can't get rid of the few nuts.

PS, probably the only protestors I can remember that didn't have that problems were the non-violent civil rights protestors in the 60s. The were amazing and stayed on message. But even they were lumped in with the more radical element of the black panthers, etc.

To be perfectly honest with you, one of the reason I hate to hear the tea party dismissed as racist is a very selfish thing. I am not a tea partier, but I certainly oppose a large chunk of the Obama agenda. So if those people are racist then why not me. Well to those who dismiss people who disagree with you as racist because it is the easy thing to do. Fuck you.


not you cleets, I would kiss you first.

[Chizzang]

Dude, I get it...
And I'll be the first to tell you I'm not excited about our "new direction" and not excited about our "Hope" platform... There is an awful lot to complain about

But part of creating a valid argument is removing items that allow you to be easily dismissed by those you wish to make your point to... Again: I got no problem with the Tea Party and I think and have always thought that protest - in fact more protest than we seem capable of - is very necessary...

Mostly this whole argument has been "social semantics" which I find endlessly entertaining

The history of protest in this country is easily dismissed because in every group there are fruitcakes or nutballs that can't be removed. Look at the war protest of the 60s. Serious stuff but you had the nut cakes. Look at green protestors. Serious stuff but the nuts make them look silly. So from that perspective, I agree. The teapartiers look silly because they can't get rid of the few nuts.

PS, probably the only protestors I can remember that didn't have that problems were the non-violent civil rights protestors in the 60s. The were amazing and stayed on message. But even they were lumped in with the more radical element of the black panthers, etc.

To be perfectly honest with you, one of the reason I hate to hear the tea party dismissed as racist is a very selfish thing. I am not a tea partier, but I certainly oppose a large chunk of the Obama agenda. So if those people are racist then why not me. Well to those who dismiss people who disagree with you as racist because it is the easy thing to do. Fuck you.


not you cleets, I would kiss you first.

That's what's so amazing about it is..
The early tea party signs that had the go back to Africa stuff and the Nigger stuff served to completely dismiss the entire movement...

That was the gift that keeps on giving
From that point forward the political left could - with impunity - dismiss the whole thing as garbage

[OL FU]

The history of protest in this country is easily dismissed because in every group there are fruitcakes or nutballs that can't be removed. Look at the war protest of the 60s. Serious stuff but you had the nut cakes. Look at green protestors. Serious stuff but the nuts make them look silly. So from that perspective, I agree. The teapartiers look silly because they can't get rid of the few nuts.

PS, probably the only protestors I can remember that didn't have that problems were the non-violent civil rights protestors in the 60s. The were amazing and stayed on message. But even they were lumped in with the more radical element of the black panthers, etc.

To be perfectly honest with you, one of the reason I hate to hear the tea party dismissed as racist is a very selfish thing. I am not a tea partier, but I certainly oppose a large chunk of the Obama agenda. So if those people are racist then why not me. Well to those who dismiss people who disagree with you as racist because it is the easy thing to do. **** you.


not you cleets, I would kiss you first.

That's what's so amazing about it is..
The early tea party signs that had the go back to Africa stuff and the Nigger stuff served to completely dismiss the entire movement...

That was the gift that keeps on giving
From that point forward the political left could - with impunity - dismiss the whole thing as garbage

I'll take your word for it. Didn't pay attention to the tea partiers early on. To be perfectly honest I haven't paid that much attention later on. to be perfectly honest I don't give care nearly as much as I pretend.

Now , I have to go and make my Go back to Africa sign

[Chizzang]

That's what's so amazing about it is..
The early tea party signs that had the go back to Africa stuff and the Nigger stuff served to completely dismiss the entire movement...

That was the gift that keeps on giving
From that point forward the political left could - with impunity - dismiss the whole thing as garbage

I'll take your word for it. Didn't pay attention to the tea partiers early on. To be perfectly honest I haven't paid that much attention later on. to be perfectly honest I don't give care nearly as much as I pretend.

Now , I have to go and make my Go back to Africa sign

I get the feeling that neither one of actually gives a sh!t about this... because we kinda don't
But I always enjoy rousing you up a little bit
(It's Reagan's fault)

Oh and where's native..? He'd be on here telling me how we wouldn't even have an America at all if it wasn't for his platoon.. and what an ingrate I am and anyone like me who questions the sanctity of the tea party's motives

I love this place

[OL FU]

I'll take your word for it. Didn't pay attention to the tea partiers early on. To be perfectly honest I haven't paid that much attention later on. to be perfectly honest I don't give care nearly as much as I pretend.

Now , I have to go and make my Go back to Africa sign

I get the feeling that neither one of actually gives a sh!t about this... because we kinda don't
But I always enjoy rousing you up a little bit


(It's Reagan's fault)

you know the best thing about Reagon. He knew when to shut up. Current occupant of the WH should take note

[Appaholic]

Oh and where's native..? He'd be on here telling me how we wouldn't even have an America at all if it wasn't for his platoon.. and what an ingrate I am and anyone like me who questions the sanctity of the tea party's motives

No shit....figured my diatribe against military would have brought him out of the woodowrk....also, you're not an ingrate, but a "worthless dikhead" according to native....

[JohnStOnge]

25 to 30 years ago and a completely different time.

How true.

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[Chizzang]

Oh and where's native..? He'd be on here telling me how we wouldn't even have an America at all if it wasn't for his platoon.. and what an ingrate I am and anyone like me who questions the sanctity of the tea party's motives

No shit....figured my diatribe against military would have brought him out of the woodowrk....also, you're not an ingrate, but a "worthless dikhead" according to native....

Yeah, your first mistake was defending my observation - but I am a worthless dickhead - he nailed that one

[OL FU]

There are some arguments that are worth the time. This one isn't. Whether the cost is comparable is not really the point. how intrusive and all encompassing is. health care, cap and trade, impact everyone. It is government reaching into the life of every individual. I am not arguing the rights and wrongs here that is for a different threaed. The point I was making was the argument that there are tipping points that wake people up and Obama's agenda is that tipping point.

It is ok not to agree with the Tea Party. But it is either misinformation or disingenious to assume that the entire movement (for lack of a better word) is simply a racist reaction to a black president.

Agreed..
But "the tipping point" doesn't logically seem like more spending, as that's been going on since Reagan set spending records - the tipping point seems more likely to be the one completely unique factor.. and couple that with signs with the word nigger on them and it doesn't take Sherlock Holms to come to any conclusions

My Point: The Republicans don't like the Tea Party being called racists reactionaries I certainly understand and in some ways completely agree - but it would be a lot easier to "get behind" the Tea Party or at least take them seriously if they did two things...
1) Didn't have Nigger on their signs
2) Complained about unique issues new to this administration

Just my 2 cents...
I actually like having the Tea Party around it's a fun topic and a great study of human nature and pop culture

Just to show I am not totally bored by this thread although I am getting close The tipping point argument is not just about spending. If it were, it would lose any credibility I think it has. It is also about increasing government authority, ie health care, cap and trade, GM and Chrysler (which yes was started by Bush). TARP (which yes was Bush, but please note that many Bush type republicans are having their own struggles such McCain and Christ). It is also about impending tax increases. It is also about structural changes in the deficit. It is also about the health care bill being justified with phony math. It is also about congress moving to pass health care (I realize the Ds ran on health care and won) when public opinion polls clearly showed the majority of American's wanted to re-think that issue. I also realize that there is a counter argument for each of these. But the counter argument is not the point. The point is that there is a convergence of issues that many oppose and many others simply find overwhelming. This is not about whether one side is right or wrong, but a description of why there is a tea party.


and oh yes, for some, it is certainly about having a black Democratic President.

[Chizzang]

Agreed..
But "the tipping point" doesn't logically seem like more spending, as that's been going on since Reagan set spending records - the tipping point seems more likely to be the one completely unique factor.. and couple that with signs with the word nigger on them and it doesn't take Sherlock Holms to come to any conclusions

My Point: The Republicans don't like the Tea Party being called racists reactionaries I certainly understand and in some ways completely agree - but it would be a lot easier to "get behind" the Tea Party or at least take them seriously if they did two things...
1) Didn't have Nigger on their signs
2) Complained about unique issues new to this administration

Just my 2 cents...
I actually like having the Tea Party around it's a fun topic and a great study of human nature and pop culture

Just to show I am not totally bored by this thread although I am getting close The tipping point argument is not just about spending. If it were, it would lose any credibility I think it has. It is also about increasing government authority, ie health care, cap and trade, GM and Chrysler (which yes was started by Bush). TARP (which yes was Bush, but please note that many Bush type republicans are having their own struggles such McCain and Christ). It is also about impending tax increases. It is also about structural changes in the deficit. It is also about the health care bill being justified with phony math. It is also about congress moving to pass health care (I realize the Ds ran on health care and won) when public opinion polls clearly showed the majority of American's wanted to re-think that issue. I also realize that there is a counter argument for each of these. But the counter argument is not the point. The point is that there is a convergence of issues that many oppose and many others simply find overwhelming. This is not about whether one side is right or wrong, but a description of why there is a tea party.


and oh yes, for some, it is certainly about having a black Democratic President.

That's a really long post... so I'm just going to agree and then say..

[OL FU]

Just to show I am not totally bored by this thread although I am getting close The tipping point argument is not just about spending. If it were, it would lose any credibility I think it has. It is also about increasing government authority, ie health care, cap and trade, GM and Chrysler (which yes was started by Bush). TARP (which yes was Bush, but please note that many Bush type republicans are having their own struggles such McCain and Christ). It is also about impending tax increases. It is also about structural changes in the deficit. It is also about the health care bill being justified with phony math. It is also about congress moving to pass health care (I realize the Ds ran on health care and won) when public opinion polls clearly showed the majority of American's wanted to re-think that issue. I also realize that there is a counter argument for each of these. But the counter argument is not the point. The point is that there is a convergence of issues that many oppose and many others simply find overwhelming. This is not about whether one side is right or wrong, but a description of why there is a tea party.


and oh yes, for some, it is certainly about having a black Democratic President.

That's a really long post... so I'm just going to agree and then say..

compared to some of your posts mine is barely visible

[native]

... The tipping point argument is not just about spending
.... It is also about increasing government authority, ie health care, cap and trade, GM and Chrysler (which yes was started by Bush)
...TARP ......It is also about impending tax increases
...structural changes in the deficit
...the health care bill being justified with phony math
...congress moving to pass health care (I realize the Ds ran on health care and won) when public opinion polls clearly showed the majority of American's wanted to re-think that issue. ....

Truth!