Conservative Latinos Rethink Party Ties

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

We're on the same page native - the key is to weed out those actually committing criminal activities (including illegal alien contractors) from those that can actually contribute to the country. If they're all lumped together then you can't reasonably expect those folks that we'd actually like to keep as guest workers to assist us in finding and deporting the real criminal element...

Well said. And this is one reason that various Law Enforcement Officers give for opposing the Arizona bill - they rely on the "good" illegals to help them catch the "bad" illegals. If we treat them ALL as criminals, the true criminals amongst them have an easier time evading capture.

Wow............just wow......

[JohnStOnge]

I think the bottom line is that, despite the smoke screen of claims of concern over citizens and/or people here legally being discriminated against, the real motivation behind attitudes like that described in the article is a wish to see people who came here illegally get to stay. There's no way we're going to do anything about it unless we accept that we are going to alienate such people. If either political party or both political parties succumb(s( to the wishes of a minority of the population that wants to reward people for coming into this country in an uncontrolled, illegal manner, we have a serious problem. What SHOULD happen if one party plays patti-cake with illegal aliens while the other expresses a desire to make a sincere effort to solve the problem is that the overwhelming majority of the population that DOES want something done to 1) deport as many of the illegals as possible and 2) improve efforts to keep other illegals from getting in should side with the party that wants to make a sincere effort. But that's not what happens.

This is one of those issues such that a relatively small minority of the population gets its way because of the way the political calculus is set up.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

One of the better discussions I've read on here in a long time. Cluck made the point that I came into this thread thinking. Dback's 5 point agenda looks a lot like how I think it should go as well with the exception of giving amnesty across the board.

The problem is how to take care of the 11 million illegals. I think it's the old adage of you eat an elephant one bite at a time.

About a year ago when there was the break down of the overseas tax shelters the IRS gave the option of offenders coming forth and making things right before they tore them a new asshole.

Same type of thing could work on this issue. Give the illegals an opportunity to come forward and register and start working toward citizenship by a certain date. There would be a lot willing to do it that way. Then start going after the illegals that will not register and make things hard on them. Once the rest of the illegals see that pressure is being applied they will be motivated to get in and get moving on their citizenship. People will respond to the path of least resistance if they see that it is all gonna crumble on them if they don't actively seek citizenship.

The only ones that are not going to be properly seeking citizenship will be the criminals and those are the ones that we need to get the fuck out anyway. The US would only need to round a fraction of the 11 million and the point would be made.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

11 million is on the almost unbelievably low side.

Its closer to 15-18 million

[Rob Iola]

One of the better discussions I've read on here in a long time. Cluck made the point that I came into this thread thinking. Dback's 5 point agenda looks a lot like how I think it should go as well with the exception of giving amnesty across the board.

The problem is how to take care of the 11 million illegals. I think it's the old adage of you eat an elephant one bite at a time.

About a year ago when there was the break down of the overseas tax shelters the IRS gave the option of offenders coming forth and making things right before they tore them a new asshole.

Same type of thing could work on this issue. Give the illegals an opportunity to come forward and register and start working toward citizenship by a certain date. There would be a lot willing to do it that way. Then start going after the illegals that will not register and make things hard on them. Once the rest of the illegals see that pressure is being applied they will be motivated to get in and get moving on their citizenship. People will respond to the path of least resistance if they see that it is all gonna crumble on them if they don't actively seek citizenship.

The only ones that are not going to be properly seeking citizenship will be the criminals and those are the ones that we need to get the fuck out anyway. The US would only need to round a fraction of the 11 million and the point would be made.

This.

[native]

One of the better discussions I've read on here in a long time. Cluck made the point that I came into this thread thinking. Dback's 5 point agenda looks a lot like how I think it should go as well with the exception of giving amnesty across the board.

The problem is how to take care of the 11 million illegals. I think it's the old adage of you eat an elephant one bite at a time.

About a year ago when there was the break down of the overseas tax shelters the IRS gave the option of offenders coming forth and making things right before they tore them a new *******.

Same type of thing could work on this issue. Give the illegals an opportunity to come forward and register and start working toward citizenship by a certain date. There would be a lot willing to do it that way. Then start going after the illegals that will not register and make things hard on them. Once the rest of the illegals see that pressure is being applied they will be motivated to get in and get moving on their citizenship. People will respond to the path of least resistance if they see that it is all gonna crumble on them if they don't actively seek citizenship.

The only ones that are not going to be properly seeking citizenship will be the criminals and those are the ones that we need to get the **** out anyway. The US would only need to round a fraction of the 11 million and the point would be made.

...work toward legal status, maybe, but NOT CITIZENSHIP, Ursus. They have forfeited that precious status forever.

[Rob Iola]

One of the better discussions I've read on here in a long time. Cluck made the point that I came into this thread thinking. Dback's 5 point agenda looks a lot like how I think it should go as well with the exception of giving amnesty across the board.

The problem is how to take care of the 11 million illegals. I think it's the old adage of you eat an elephant one bite at a time.

About a year ago when there was the break down of the overseas tax shelters the IRS gave the option of offenders coming forth and making things right before they tore them a new *******.

Same type of thing could work on this issue. Give the illegals an opportunity to come forward and register and start working toward citizenship by a certain date. There would be a lot willing to do it that way. Then start going after the illegals that will not register and make things hard on them. Once the rest of the illegals see that pressure is being applied they will be motivated to get in and get moving on their citizenship. People will respond to the path of least resistance if they see that it is all gonna crumble on them if they don't actively seek citizenship.

The only ones that are not going to be properly seeking citizenship will be the criminals and those are the ones that we need to get the **** out anyway. The US would only need to round a fraction of the 11 million and the point would be made.

...work toward legal status, maybe, but NOT CITIZENSHIP, Ursus. They have forfeited that precious status forever.

Wait what? Why the hell not? If they're willing to learn passable English, pay taxes, and volunteer (if they wish) for the armed forces, then we can use these folks.

[89Hen]

Wait what? Why the hell not? If they're willing to learn passable English, pay taxes, and volunteer (if they wish) for the armed forces, then we can use these folks.

They can't even learn enough English to protest immigration reform.

Imagine me going to Sweden and yelling at the top of my lungs in English that I want Swedes to give me rights to their country.

[danefan]

Wait what? Why the hell not? If they're willing to learn passable English, pay taxes, and volunteer (if they wish) for the armed forces, then we can use these folks.

They can't even learn enough English to protest immigration reform.

Imagine me going to Sweden and yelling at the top of my lungs in English that I want Swedes to give me rights to their country.

Come on Hen....we natural born Americans can't even learn our own language.

[GannonFan]

But that's one of the basic problems with the federal government taking up comprehensive immigration reform, isn't it? Whichever party spearheads the effort risks losing the Hispanic vote because reform has to include illegal immigrant provisions (read, ID check), right?

Depends on how it is done, IMO

Realistically, deportation is NOT going to happen for the vast majority of illegals in the country now. What we need to work on is a five-tier approach

1) Securing ALL borders better - fencing in cities, increased patrols, cameras in more remote areas. More feet on the ground.
2) Increase penalties for companies that skirt immigration laws - make it unprofitable to do so
3) Set up a guest worker program
4) Create a path to citizenship for those that are here. I know this is not popular with the right, but the pragmatic solution
5) Concentrate our foreign aid on the countries that are the sources of illegal immigration - better to keep them there, than here.

While I agree with those points (well, save for #5 - foreign aid is never going to be enough to overcome the difference in freedom and opportunity between the US and the countries many of these folks are coming from), the question is, what is really new in those proposals from what we are doing now or have done? Everything is already in place for many of these initiatives, we just don't follow through on those initiatives enough. We are securing the borders - just not good enough. We have penalties for companies that skirt laws and it is unprofitable if they are caught, but we just don't do a good enough job of catching them. We have guest worker programs, they just aren't expansive enough to cover everyone who wants to come here. They're all great talking points and they sound great, but they're all things that are in place and just not being used effectively today - how do we make sure they are effective going forward?

[native]

...work toward legal status, maybe, but NOT CITIZENSHIP, Ursus. They have forfeited that precious status forever.

Wait what? Why the hell not? If they're willing to learn passable English, pay taxes, and volunteer (if they wish) for the armed forces, then we can use these folks.

They do not deserve citizenship because their status is based on fraud, Rob.

How the hell can you make them pay back the multiple billions in government debt they imposed through higher per capita incarceration rates, school enrollments, property damage, social services, etc. They caused my taxes to go higher and they sucked resources from my school and my neighborhood.

Most of the ones that would want to stay are because they have one or more anchor babies, and in some cases a kickass job. Isn't legal status humanitarian reward enough for lying and cheating? Other than for military service, why should someone who lied and cheated to get here and continued to do so for years be rewarded with the privilege of voting? Because they have a racist organization like "La Raza" lobbying for them? No. Getting to keep the job and stay with the kids is reward enough.

If we award citizenship for service, let's do so after the fact, not for the theory that they might volunteer to do so.

[89Hen]

Come on Hen....we natural born Americans can't even learn our own language.

At least he's making an attempt. He can't help it if he's a moran.

[clenz]

Come on Hen....we natural born Americans can't even learn our own language.

At least he's making an attempt. He can't help it if he's a moran.

Maybe his is talking to the Moran family. If that is the case he is only missing the ', which would lead me to believe that is Alphie

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Wait what? Why the hell not? If they're willing to learn passable English, pay taxes, and volunteer (if they wish) for the armed forces, then we can use these folks.

They do not deserve citizenship because their status is based on fraud, Rob.

How the hell can you make them pay back the multiple billions in government debt they imposed through higher per capita incarceration rates, school enrollments, property damage, social services, etc. They caused my taxes to go higher and they sucked resources from my school and my neighborhood.

Most of the ones that would want to stay are because they have one or more anchor babies, and in some cases a kickass job. Isn't legal status humanitarian reward enough for lying and cheating? Other than for military service, why should someone who lied and cheated to get here and continued to do so for years be rewarded with the privilege of voting? Because they have a racist organization like "La Raza" lobbying for them? No. Getting to keep the job and stay with the kids is reward enough.

If we award citizenship for service, let's do so after the fact, not for the theory that they might volunteer to do so.

Native if they do everything required to become a citizen the they become a citizen in my book. It's making bones on points like this that keeps things from moving forward and reaching the end game that most of all of us would like to see happen.

Like it or not we have all done something illegal due to being in a bad situation and trying to make things better for ourselves or our family. I, and I assume everyone else has a self preservation instinct and I can not fault someone for having the tenacity to try and make a better life for themselves. On top of that if they have a route to be a legal citizen and gain citizenship then who the fuck are we to not extend them that opportunity?

They have cost billions in services. I know that. They have also contributed to our fairly comfortable lives with their labor. If the poor don't pay a lot of taxes anyway then I guess I would have to look at the workforce as part of the infrastructure. The roads do not contribute any taxes either but they are a big part of what our economy needs to function properly so why would we want to get rid of a big part of a motivated work force?

We need them, they need us so the end game to me is to have a path to get those who can be productive to be a part of OUR culture as well.

[Chizzang]

Native if they do everything required to become a citizen the they become a citizen in my book. It's making bones on points like this that keeps things from moving forward and reaching the end game that most of all of us would like to see happen.

Like it or not we have all done something illegal due to being in a bad situation and trying to make things better for ourselves or our family. I, and I assume everyone else has a self preservation instinct and I can not fault someone for having the tenacity to try and make a better life for themselves. On top of that if they have a route to be a legal citizen and gain citizenship then who the fuck are we to not extend them that opportunity?

They have cost billions in services. I know that. They have also contributed to our fairly comfortable lives with their labor. If the poor don't pay a lot of taxes anyway then I guess I would have to look at the workforce as part of the infrastructure. The roads do not contribute any taxes either but they are a big part of what our economy needs to function properly so why would we want to get rid of a big part of a motivated work force?

We need them, they need us so the end game to me is to have a path to get those who can be productive to be a part of OUR culture as well.

When are you running for office Ursus...

[danefan]

They do not deserve citizenship because their status is based on fraud, Rob.

How the hell can you make them pay back the multiple billions in government debt they imposed through higher per capita incarceration rates, school enrollments, property damage, social services, etc. They caused my taxes to go higher and they sucked resources from my school and my neighborhood.

Most of the ones that would want to stay are because they have one or more anchor babies, and in some cases a kickass job. Isn't legal status humanitarian reward enough for lying and cheating? Other than for military service, why should someone who lied and cheated to get here and continued to do so for years be rewarded with the privilege of voting? Because they have a racist organization like "La Raza" lobbying for them? No. Getting to keep the job and stay with the kids is reward enough.

If we award citizenship for service, let's do so after the fact, not for the theory that they might volunteer to do so.

Native if they do everything required to become a citizen the they become a citizen in my book. It's making bones on points like this that keeps things from moving forward and reaching the end game that most of all of us would like to see happen.

Like it or not we have all done something illegal due to being in a bad situation and trying to make things better for ourselves or our family. I, and I assume everyone else has a self preservation instinct and I can not fault someone for having the tenacity to try and make a better life for themselves. On top of that if they have a route to be a legal citizen and gain citizenship then who the fuck are we to not extend them that opportunity?

They have cost billions in services. I know that. They have also contributed to our fairly comfortable lives with their labor. If the poor don't pay a lot of taxes anyway then I guess I would have to look at the workforce as part of the infrastructure. The roads do not contribute any taxes either but they are a big part of what our economy needs to function properly so why would we want to get rid of a big part of a motivated work force?

We need them, they need us so the end game to me is to have a path to get those who can be productive to be a part of OUR culture as well.

Congratulations Ursus on being indoctrinated by your liberal college professors.

Why do you hate your country so much?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Native if they do everything required to become a citizen the they become a citizen in my book. It's making bones on points like this that keeps things from moving forward and reaching the end game that most of all of us would like to see happen.

Like it or not we have all done something illegal due to being in a bad situation and trying to make things better for ourselves or our family. I, and I assume everyone else has a self preservation instinct and I can not fault someone for having the tenacity to try and make a better life for themselves. On top of that if they have a route to be a legal citizen and gain citizenship then who the fuck are we to not extend them that opportunity?

They have cost billions in services. I know that. They have also contributed to our fairly comfortable lives with their labor. If the poor don't pay a lot of taxes anyway then I guess I would have to look at the workforce as part of the infrastructure. The roads do not contribute any taxes either but they are a big part of what our economy needs to function properly so why would we want to get rid of a big part of a motivated work force?

We need them, they need us so the end game to me is to have a path to get those who can be productive to be a part of OUR culture as well.

Congratulations Ursus on being indoctrinated by your liberal college professors.

Why do you hate your country so much?

Nah, I argued as much with them as I have anyone.

I really just can't find a side to be on cuz I hit from either side depending on the topic.

Shut up dback.

[native]

They do not deserve citizenship because their status is based on fraud, Rob.

How the hell can you make them pay back the multiple billions in government debt they imposed through higher per capita incarceration rates, school enrollments, property damage, social services, etc. They caused my taxes to go higher and they sucked resources from my school and my neighborhood.

Most of the ones that would want to stay are because they have one or more anchor babies, and in some cases a kickass job. Isn't legal status humanitarian reward enough for lying and cheating? Other than for military service, why should someone who lied and cheated to get here and continued to do so for years be rewarded with the privilege of voting? Because they have a racist organization like "La Raza" lobbying for them? No. Getting to keep the job and stay with the kids is reward enough.

If we award citizenship for service, let's do so after the fact, not for the theory that they might volunteer to do so.

Native if they do everything required to become a citizen the they become a citizen in my book. It's making bones on points like this that keeps things from moving forward and reaching the end game that most of all of us would like to see happen.

Like it or not we have all done something illegal due to being in a bad situation and trying to make things better for ourselves or our family. I, and I assume everyone else has a self preservation instinct and I can not fault someone for having the tenacity to try and make a better life for themselves. On top of that if they have a route to be a legal citizen and gain citizenship then who the **** are we to not extend them that opportunity?

They have cost billions in services. I know that. They have also contributed to our fairly comfortable lives with their labor. If the poor don't pay a lot of taxes anyway then I guess I would have to look at the workforce as part of the infrastructure. The roads do not contribute any taxes either but they are a big part of what our economy needs to function properly so why would we want to get rid of a big part of a motivated work force?

We need them, they need us so the end game to me is to have a path to get those who can be productive to be a part of OUR culture as well.

I disagree that making bones on the citizenship issue is what keeps us apart, Brother Bear. Making "legal resident" the end game instead of citizenship would allow for the rapid consummation of a bi-partisan comprehensive solution.

Why are you stuck on citizenship as the end game? Why NOT legal resident? If you were in their shoes, would you not be delighted and grateful to be able to become a legal resident? Would you not make that tiny sacrifice for your children? I would.

P.S. You are smoking crack if you think that the illegal immigration lobby wants to be part of "OUR culture."

[89Hen]

P.S. You are smoking crack if you think that the illegal immigration lobby wants to be part of "OUR culture."

+1

Except, I'd be careful calling it "our" culture. We are still a melting pot with many cultures mixed together, but it's the getting along with "our" other cultures that is the problem. Little Havana, Little China, Little This, Little That...

[Rob Iola]

P.S. You are smoking crack if you think that the illegal immigration lobby wants to be part of "OUR culture."

+1

Except, I'd be careful calling it "our" culture. We are still a melting pot with many cultures mixed together, but it's the getting along with "our" other cultures that is the problem. Little Havana, Little China, Little This, Little That...

Little Congressional Maintenance Shed?

[89Hen]

Little Congressional Maintenance Shed?

Exactly. All of our immigrant greenskeepers can at least waive in English.

[danefan]

P.S. You are smoking crack if you think that the illegal immigration lobby wants to be part of "OUR culture."

+1

Except, I'd be careful calling it "our" culture. We are still a melting pot with many cultures mixed together, but it's the getting along with "our" other cultures that is the problem. Little Havana, Little China, Little This, Little That...

Are you saying that these neighborhoods are a bad thing?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Native if they do everything required to become a citizen the they become a citizen in my book. It's making bones on points like this that keeps things from moving forward and reaching the end game that most of all of us would like to see happen.

Like it or not we have all done something illegal due to being in a bad situation and trying to make things better for ourselves or our family. I, and I assume everyone else has a self preservation instinct and I can not fault someone for having the tenacity to try and make a better life for themselves. On top of that if they have a route to be a legal citizen and gain citizenship then who the **** are we to not extend them that opportunity?

They have cost billions in services. I know that. They have also contributed to our fairly comfortable lives with their labor. If the poor don't pay a lot of taxes anyway then I guess I would have to look at the workforce as part of the infrastructure. The roads do not contribute any taxes either but they are a big part of what our economy needs to function properly so why would we want to get rid of a big part of a motivated work force?

We need them, they need us so the end game to me is to have a path to get those who can be productive to be a part of OUR culture as well.

I disagree that making bones on the citizenship issue is what keeps us apart, Brother Bear. Making "legal resident" the end game instead of citizenship would allow for the rapid consummation of a bi-partisan comprehensive solution.

Why are you stuck on citizenship as the end game? Why NOT legal resident? If you were in their shoes, would you not be delighted and grateful to be able to become a legal resident? Would you not make that tiny sacrifice for your children? I would.

P.S. You are smoking crack if you think that the illegal immigration lobby wants to be part of "OUR culture."

Legal residency is fine with me. My point of citizenship is why try to take away that carrot if they truly want to consider themselves an American? If they don't then I don't give a fuck. Trying to put a block on pursuit of citizenship as a punishment just seems extremely petty to me.

The thing about "our culture" as hen pointed out is that is a culture everyone. The Irish, Italian, and all the other cultures bring a lot to the pot while still having a good amount of pride in where they, or their ancestors hailed from. It's a good reason in my book to allow the attempt to integrate into being an American.

Wouldn't we kind of make the illegal immigrant lobby have a lot less impact if we give a path and take away what they are bitching about on our own terms?

Smoking crack don't make me a bad guy.

[native]

P.S. You are smoking crack if you think that the illegal immigration lobby wants to be part of "OUR culture."

+1

Except, I'd be careful calling it "our" culture. We are still a melting pot with many cultures mixed together, but it's the getting along with "our" other cultures that is the problem. Little Havana, Little China, Little This, Little That...

I am completely for the melting pot theory. My family is brown and speaks English only as a second, third, or fourrth language. But they came here legally after waiting in squalid conditions. They are proud of their original culture(s), but would not dream of insulting their neighbors by marching down the street with foreign flags, demanding "rights" to which they are not entitled, or physically attacking peaceful protesters who opposed them.

ALL OF THIS BULLSH!T HAPPENS EVERY MAYDAY IN MY HOMETOWN.

[native]

...Legal residency is fine with me. My point of citizenship is why try to take away that carrot if they truly want to consider themselves an American? If they don't then I don't give a ****. Trying to put a block on pursuit of citizenship as a punishment just seems extremely petty to me.

The thing about "our culture" as hen pointed out is that is a culture everyone. The Irish, Italian, and all the other cultures bring a lot to the pot while still having a good amount of pride in where they, or their ancestors hailed from. It's a good reason in my book to allow the attempt to integrate into being an American.

Wouldn't we kind of make the illegal immigrant lobby have a lot less impact if we give a path and take away what they are bitching about on our own terms?

Smoking crack don't make me a bad guy.

If you have been a convicted felon you cannot own a gun in most jurisdictions. You are still at liberty to otherwise pursue happiness. If you came here illegally you should not be able to vote. They have already won the lottery for their children by coming here illegally. No one is taking that away from them.

The Irish, Italian, and all the other cultures did not march down the street with foreign flags, hiding their faces, demanding "rights" to which they are not entitled, and physically attacking peaceful protesters who opposed them.