Seniors Told To Stop Praying *Aloud* Before Meals

[AZGrizFan]

You babble, but don't answer the question...where has the Constitution changed regarding this subject, specifically the First Amendment?

I'll wait over here while you try to come up with a correct answer...

Look at your question, Joltin Joe. Be more clear.

You said "the Constitution is the same" which it aint. Second, WE have changed. OUR country has changed, therefore our interpretation and application of this 200 year old document, including the Establishment Clause has changed, for the better.

Aint all black and white Hogan. Might be in your warped fantasy world, but things are in a constant state of change.

And you're the first motherfucker in line complaining when someone "interprets" the constitution in a manner not to your liking.

[Col Hogan]

Look at your question, Joltin Joe. Be more clear.

You said "the Constitution is the same" which it aint. Second, WE have changed. OUR country has changed, therefore our interpretation and application of this 200 year old document, including the Establishment Clause has changed, for the better.

Aint all black and white Hogan. Might be in your warped fantasy world, but things are in a constant state of change.

And you're the first motherfucker in line complaining when someone "interprets" the constitution in a manner not to your liking.

[89Hen]

No fuckhead, they can do whatever the fuck they want in their homes. Talking bout a senior center here - a publicly funded place - so NO PRAYER.

You're approaching the unreal (to steal a phrase from Geddy Lee).

I can go into the Library of Congress right now, pull out a Bible and read it aloud. If the center told them they had to pray in order to get the food, you'd be right. They cannot stop them from praying aloud any more than they can stop them from reading baseball boxscores aloud before eating.

[Skjellyfetti]

Gotta agree with the Conks on this... they can't stop someone from praying.

You have a freedom to practice your religion and a freedom to not be forced to practice a certain religion.

[Baldy]

You know the phrase of "Separation of Church and State" comes from Jefferson's "wall of separation between church and state", right? It isn't from some liberal activist court ruling 30 years ago or anything.

...and you do realize that Jefferson's "wall of separation" was in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Danbury, CT because the state of Connecticut was thinking of actually really establishing an official state religion. Anyone who knows anything about Jefferson knows he would in no way accept the various rulings from courts that have twisted his words to mean that religion can't be mentioned 'in the public square', period.

[Skjellyfetti]

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination.

The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

The law for religious freedom... [has] put down the aristocracy of the clergy and restored to the citizen the freedom of the mind.

[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed,... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.

[89Hen]

"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights."

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted."

"I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others."

[AZGrizFan]

Sweet: dueling Thomas Jefferson quotes!

[89Hen]

Sweet: dueling Thomas Jefferson quotes!

TJ quotes are like the bible. You can find any number of passages to support just about any position.

[JoltinJoe]

Sweet: dueling Thomas Jefferson quotes!

TJ quotes are like the bible. You can find any number of passages to support just about any position.

When you quote out-of-context, that's true.

At the risk of over-simplifying, Jefferson admired Christianity at its essence, but felt that it had become institutionalized throughout European history through an alliance of sovereigns, who used religion as a ground to justify their authority -- i.e., the claim of divine right -- and clergy who became intoxicated by the privileges bestowed upon them by sovereigns for allowing the faith to be manipulated for political purposes. He felt that this condition existed in Catholic and Protestant countries alike, and faulted the clergy of both faiths for allowing the faith to become politically entangled.

Jefferson did not believe that authority ruled by divine right; he believed that authority should govern with the consent of the governed. He opposed the establishment of an official state religion (specifically he opposed the imposition of the Anglican faith, and the Church of England, which was governed by the English king). He believed that all persons had an inalienable right to practice the religion of their choice without interference by the state. Although Jefferson did not approve of the way Catholic leaders had mixed religion and politics in European nations in which Catholicism was a majority faith, he believed that in opposing an official state religion in the colonies/United States, he was acting to protect the rights of Catholics, who were a minority religious group. In this regard, Jefferson was influenced by his friend, Phillip Mazzei, a Catholic immigrant, who had impressed upon Jefferson in their discussions the concept that all men were created equal and enjoyed the right, among other things, to observe the religion of their choice without persecution.

Among the quotes referenced by SkyJelly the quote which probably most accurately sums up Jefferson's thoughts about Christianity in one sentence, is this one:

The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.

Baldy's quotes are all fair summations of Jefferson's opinions. Advantage: Baldy.

[Skjellyfetti]

lol. The quotes I got were from UVA's website. There isn't a better place for information on Jefferson. If they were taken out of context... it was done by them... and I'm pretty sure they are familiar as fuck on the context. They don't distort his positions.

I'm pretty sure it's the same website 89 got his quotes from... and I agree with 89's quotes. I don't think they misrepresent Jefferson's thoughts. But, somehow y'all argue the ones I gave do.

I think my quotes, 89's quotes, and Jefferson's philosophy on this issue can be summed up by what I posted earlier in the thread:

You have a freedom to practice your religion and a freedom to not be forced to practice a certain religion.

I agree with y'all that are saying these guys have a right to pray. Stop y'all's bitching.

[JoltinJoe]

lol. The quotes I got were from UVA's website. There isn't a better place for information on Jefferson. If they were taken out of context... it was done by them... and I'm pretty sure they are familiar as **** on the context. They don't distort his positions.

I'm pretty sure it's the same website 89 got his quotes from...

The problem with your quotes is that they perhaps imply an anti-religious outlook, when Jefferson's outlook was really anti-clergy and anti-establishment of religion. And that's the way you were using them, to imply that Jefferson's "wall" was intended to remove any reference to faith from the public square.

If you need to be disabused of this idea even further, go visit the Jefferson Memorial and you can observe for yourself all the generic references to God offered by President Jefferson.

[JoltinJoe]

lol. The quotes I got were from UVA's website. There isn't a better place for information on Jefferson. If they were taken out of context... it was done by them... and I'm pretty sure they are familiar as **** on the context. They don't distort his positions.

I'm pretty sure it's the same website 89 got his quotes from... and I agree with 89's quotes. I don't think they misrepresent Jefferson's thoughts. But, somehow y'all argue the ones I gave do.

I think my quotes, 89's quotes, and Jefferson's philosophy on this issue can be summed up by what I posted earlier in the thread:

You have a freedom to practice your religion and a freedom to not be forced to practice a certain religion.

I agree with y'all that are saying these guys have a right to pray. Stop y'all's bitching.

I'll let you go if you add: "And the freedom to voluntarily express your faith publicly, even if in a state-supported setting."

[death dealer]

Maybe part of this thread is missing from my computer. The part where you guys are in disagreement with one another. Plain and simple, the center if funded by the feds cannot advocate prayer of any kind in support of a religion, but they also cannot hinder an individual from practicing his or her preferred personal religion. So if the old folks want to say grace, they can't be made not to do so, but if they want to lead the whole room in a rousing rendition of Amazing Grace before they sit down to grub, then that's only cool if everyone there is a practicing Christian. Simple as can be. Why can't the rest of the phucking world get it?

[89Hen]

lol. The quotes I got were from UVA's website. There isn't a better place for information on Jefferson. If they were taken out of context... it was done by them... and I'm pretty sure they are familiar as fuck on the context. They don't distort his positions.

I think both of our quotes are fine, but I at the notion that UVA doesn't distort his positions. Mrs89 is a Wahoo and I tease her all the time about how UVA follows TJ's teachings but conveniently overlooks his slaves and children out of wedlock. If anyone distorts TJ, it's the University of Virginia.

[YoUDeeMan]

Maybe part of this thread is missing from my computer. The part where you guys are in disagreement with one another. Plain and simple, the center if funded by the feds cannot advocate prayer of any kind in support of a religion, but they also cannot hinder an individual from practicing his or her preferred personal religion. So if the old folks want to say grace, they can't be made not to do so, but if they want to lead the whole room in a rousing rendition of Amazing Grace before they sit down to grub, then that's only cool if everyone there is a practicing Christian. Simple as can be. Why can't the rest of the phucking world get it?

Bingo!

If they want to allow people to say a prayer to their God, then they need to make time for EVERYONE to say a prayer to their specific religious icon(s) - without getting shouted down or drowned out by the majority's prayers. Dinner could get pretty cold by the time each individual group finishes their prayers.

Or, they could simply allow people to have a moment of silence so as not to distract others...those with conflicting prayers or non-prayers, from their meal. Wow, what a concept.

Amazing how people take offense to a simple request to be respectful of others.

[D1B]

No ****, they can do whatever the **** they want in their homes. Talking bout a senior center here - a publicly funded place - so NO PRAYER.

They can pray silently - jesus don't give a flying **** you *******. If you read the bible, the mythical jesus would actually prefer you to pray silently and not make a hypcritical spectacle. People should be praying silenty because there are others, in the room, who are not **** christian and should not be subjected to that nonsense - it called be courteous, look it up sometime Tbag.

The rules are clear and people should know this going in. If they have a **** problem, they should go to a private nursing home with a rec center or move to the **** South. It's called personal accountability Tbag, look it up sometime.

It's good to see that you are uninformed on constitutional law too. If a bunch of seniors in a public nursing home want to pray before a meal, and to do so publicly and out loud, they have every right do so long as the prayer is voluntary and organized privately. That's basic First Amendment law.

Yeah, and you see, that's the problem. Was this voluntary and organized privately? My guess, considering the setting, is no, hence the problem. These cases are a dime a dozen and the courts continue to side against such "organized" prayer in public setting. Message is: Keep your fucking nonsense to yourself.

Oh, and fuck off.

[D1B]

Maybe part of this thread is missing from my computer. The part where you guys are in disagreement with one another. Plain and simple, the center if funded by the feds cannot advocate prayer of any kind in support of a religion, but they also cannot hinder an individual from practicing his or her preferred personal religion. So if the old folks want to say grace, they can't be made not to do so, but if they want to lead the whole room in a rousing rendition of Amazing Grace before they sit down to grub, then that's only cool if everyone there is a practicing Christian. Simple as can be. Why can't the rest of the phucking world get it?

Bingo!

If they want to allow people to say a prayer to their God, then they need to make time for EVERYONE to say a prayer to their specific religious icon(s) - without getting shouted down or drowned out by the majority's prayers. Dinner could get pretty cold by the time each individual group finishes their prayers.

Or, they could simply allow people to have a moment of silence so as not to distract others...those with conflicting prayers or non-prayers, from their meal. Wow, what a concept.

Amazing how people take offense to a simple request to be respectful of others.

Bingo - keep your christian, muslim and jew bullshit to YOURSELF.

[D1B]

lol. The quotes I got were from UVA's website. There isn't a better place for information on Jefferson. If they were taken out of context... it was done by them... and I'm pretty sure they are familiar as fuck on the context. They don't distort his positions.

I'm pretty sure it's the same website 89 got his quotes from... and I agree with 89's quotes. I don't think they misrepresent Jefferson's thoughts. But, somehow y'all argue the ones I gave do.

I think my quotes, 89's quotes, and Jefferson's philosophy on this issue can be summed up by what I posted earlier in the thread:

You have a freedom to practice your religion and a freedom to not be forced to practice a certain religion.

I agree with y'all that are saying these guys have a right to pray. Stop y'all's bitching.

So do I, just keep it to your fucking self. I don't want to hear it, I don't want my kids to hear it either.

[D1B]

Gotta agree with the Conks on this... they can't stop someone from praying.

You have a freedom to practice your religion and a freedom to not be forced to practice a certain religion.

Jely, praying out loud in a public setting IS forcing to practice or at least recognize a certain religion.

It's no different than second hand smoke. Sure you can smoke, but get the fuck away from me you dumbass.

[grizzaholic]

lol. The quotes I got were from UVA's website. There isn't a better place for information on Jefferson. If they were taken out of context... it was done by them... and I'm pretty sure they are familiar as fuck on the context. They don't distort his positions.

I'm pretty sure it's the same website 89 got his quotes from... and I agree with 89's quotes. I don't think they misrepresent Jefferson's thoughts. But, somehow y'all argue the ones I gave do.

I think my quotes, 89's quotes, and Jefferson's philosophy on this issue can be summed up by what I posted earlier in the thread:



I agree with y'all that are saying these guys have a right to pray. Stop y'all's bitching.

So do I, just keep it to your fucking self. I don't want to hear it. , I don't want my kids to hear it either:thumb:

But what if they do want to hear it and see what it is all about?

[D1B]

No fuckhead, they can do whatever the fuck they want in their homes. Talking bout a senior center here - a publicly funded place - so NO PRAYER.

You're approaching the unreal (to steal a phrase from Geddy Lee).

I can go into the Library of Congress right now, pull out a Bible and read it aloud. If the center told them they had to pray in order to get the food, you'd be right. They cannot stop them from praying aloud any more than they can stop them from reading baseball boxscores aloud before eating.

The bible is a work of literature, excellent in some areas, atrocious in most others. As long as you wasnt too loud or a nuisance to others. Praying is different, so....not a problem or even a decent analogy Hen.

No shit they can't stop em. Who, besides a catholic priest, would have the gall to do such a thing? The center can though lose its public funding or be forced to make changes, like not serving dinner, if someone files a complaint, like I intend to. ACLU, Freedom From Religion Foundation, American Atheists win similar cases all the time.

[YoUDeeMan]

But what if they do want to hear it and see what it is all about?

If you see someone praying quietly or talking to themselves and you are curious, then by all means go up to that person and ask them what they are doing.

But, to say that a certain group needs to have to opportunity to say their prayers out loud as a group in a public setting is silly. Billy Mays acts should be limited to late night television...at least then you can change the channel.

[D1B]

No fuckhead, they can do whatever the fuck they want in their homes. Talking bout a senior center here - a publicly funded place - so NO PRAYER.

You're approaching the unreal (to steal a phrase from Geddy Lee).

I can go into the Library of Congress right now, pull out a Bible and read it aloud. If the center told them they had to pray in order to get the food, you'd be right. They cannot stop them from praying aloud any more than they can stop them from reading baseball boxscores aloud before eating.

While you're paying the legal fees of criminals and pedophiles in your church and helping top dollar lobbyist strip away the legal rights of victims of rape, I help finance these folks:

Freedom From Religion Foundation

Important legal successes include:
Winning the first federal lawsuit challenging direct funding by the government of a faith-based agency
Overturning a state Good Friday holiday and state employees.
Winning a lawsuit barring direct taxpayer subsidy of religious schools
Removing Ten Commandments monuments and crosses from public land
Halting the Post Office from issuing religious cancellations
Ending 51 years of illegal bible instruction in public schools

Foundation complaints have:
Halted prayer at public institutions, and public financing of nativity pageants and Easter service
Stopped direct subsidy to religious schools
Stopped Job Corps trainees from being assigned to work on a Catholic shrine
Ended a 122-year abuse of commencement prayers at a Top Ten University
Declared unconstitutional the creation of a state post to “assist clergy”

http://www.ffrf.org/legal/challenges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[D1B]

But what if they do want to hear it and see what it is all about?

If you see someone praying quietly or talking to themselves and you are curious, then by all means go up to that person and ask them what they are doing.

But, to say that a certain group needs to have to opportunity to say their prayers out loud as a group in a public setting is silly. Billy Mays acts should be limited to late night television...at least then you can change the channel.

Bingo again!!!!!! Clucker, you are on a roll!!!!