Today, The Earth Stood Still...

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Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by travelinman67 »

A moment that will forever live in America's history...

...the Federal Judge in the California water rights battle has injected common sense into "n'th degree environmental protection" lunacy.

Backing off on environmental perfection

By Dennis Wyatt

http://www.mantecabulletin.com/news/article/14519/
It will go down as a landmark decision.


U.S. District Judge OIiver W. Wagner ruled this week that people have rights.

That may sound a bit daffy but in the wacky world of California water politics people take second class citizen status behind fish and even vegetation.

In a nutshell, Wagner ruled that federal water officials must consider humans along with fish when it comes to divvying up how California’s most precious resource – water – is discharged or moved through the Delta. The judge also directed the federal government to stop using what he termed “guestimations” instead of precise scientific studies to determine the exact impact reduced water would have on the fish population.

The ruling pleased urban and agricultural users and disappointed fishing interests and environmentalists. The ruling could mean more water for farmers who have been devastated by three years of drought. Many have been forced to rip out orchards and take fields out of production which has had a major impact on the San Joaquin Valley economy – already dubbed the new Appalachia by the federal government poverty studies – due to the lack of water. Not only is the jobless rate pushing 30 percent in southern valley counties where agriculture is virtually the only game in town but ultimately it will mean higher food prices for all of us.

It is the first time a judge has indicated that fish aren’t the primary concern when it comes to how water is stored and transferred in California. It is a critical ruling given the fact over 70 percent of the fresh water in this state moves through the Delta.

Environmentalists have been pushing the envelope a bit too much in recent years. Instead of trying to strike a balance they have used federal edicts to make the needs of humans subservient to all fish impacted by Delta water movements.

And it just isn’t on preserving fish population.

When it was suggested after the 1997 floods that damaged over 700 structures with losses exceeding $80 million south of Manteca when the San Joaquin and Stanislaus rivers breached levees that the antidotal evidence suggested dredging the main river channel would increase the capacity of the river, environmentalists went into overdrive to swat down the proposal making it clear local interests would have a tough and expensive legal challenge.

There is little doubt the river is less navigable today than it was 30 years ago from silt build-up due in part from the run-off primarily from the Westside ag users. It was dropped like a hot potato even though dredging out an estimated seven feet of build up would go much further in being effective protection against floods than investing in super levees.

This isn’t the only place in California where the environmentalists have crossed the line from common sense in their zealous pursuit of goals. A bid to “dredge” the Los Angeles River in the 1980s to take the pressure off future flooding was met with howls of protest. They didn’t want “sand bars” touched as they were part of the environment. Considering the LA River is virtually all concrete it was a pretty lame argument but it scared people off from the solution due to the power militant environmentalists have gleaned from federal edicts and court rulings.

We need environmental protection. What we don’t need is environmental perfection.

The craziest thing about rulings on water flows for fish during periods of drought is that much of the current water is available for fish because of man altering nature.

Prior to the late 1800s, the perennial cycle in the Central Valley was flooding in the winter and spring and virtual desert-like conditions in the summer and fall.

When the Spanish explorer Juan Bautista reached the summit of Mt. Diablo on July 4, 1776 he was disappointed as all he reported seeing was “a great inland sea.” That year, the snow fall had been heavy in the Sierra and the snow melt late.

There were no levees to contain rivers so they flooded over their banks for miles.

As far as water in late summer and fall, there are numerous stories along the tributaries of the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers where as late as the 1940s water was so shallow and depleted that one could walk across rivers without getting much more of your legs wet than your ankles.

There would be no water to support fish populations during droughts if it wasn’t for man’s “improvements.” At the same time, though, increased human consumption of fish has certainly put additional stress on fish that wasn’t there 140 years ago.

Environmental safeguards shouldn’t be tossed on a wholesale basis. What is needed, though, is a balance that doesn’t tip the scales overwhelmingly in favor of the environment. That doesn’t mean hammering environmental progress back into the Stone Age. A balance is needed. The federal court ruling is the first glimmer of hope that such a balance might actually be struck one day.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Pwns »

:thumb:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Col Hogan »

Even a broken watch is right twice a day... :roll:
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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by JoltinJoe »

Wait a minute. Fish are people too, you know.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by travelinman67 »

JoltinJoe wrote:Wait a minute. Fish are people too, you know.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by native »

:thumb: :lol:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Gil Dobie »

....paging algore :coffee:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by kalm »

In the long run, what's good for the fish is good for the humans. :coffee:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by mainejeff »

kalm wrote:In the long run, what's good for the fish is good for the humans. :coffee:
CONKS don't get it.

:coffee:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by travelinman67 »

mainejeff wrote:
kalm wrote:In the long run, what's good for the fish is good for the humans. :coffee:
CONKS don't get it.

:coffee:
Yes, they do, Mao.

It's no longer about protecting the environment, it's about destroying humanity. When the NRDC was queried by Judge Wagner last year whether they'd consider allowing limited water delivery if it meant killing even ONE smelt, the NRDC's response was that they had to "enforce" a zero-tolerance policy, even if it meant the loss of billions to agriculture and tens of thousands of jobs. That "nth" degree attitude is what drove Judge Wagner into making this ruling.

It's about putting self-destructive extremists in check.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by kalm »

travelinman67 wrote:
mainejeff wrote:
CONKS don't get it.

:coffee:
Yes, they do, Mao.

It's no longer about protecting the environment, it's about destroying humanity. When the NRDC was queried by Judge Wagner last year whether they'd consider allowing limited water delivery if it meant killing even ONE smelt, the NRDC's response was that they had to "enforce" a zero-tolerance policy, even if it meant the loss of billions to agriculture and tens of thousands of jobs. That "nth" degree attitude is what drove Judge Wagner into making this ruling.

It's about putting self-destructive extremists in check.
It's OK T. The multi nationals will find a country where environmental damage is kept off ledger. :thumb:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by mainejeff »

kalm wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
Yes, they do, Mao.

It's no longer about protecting the environment, it's about destroying humanity. When the NRDC was queried by Judge Wagner last year whether they'd consider allowing limited water delivery if it meant killing even ONE smelt, the NRDC's response was that they had to "enforce" a zero-tolerance policy, even if it meant the loss of billions to agriculture and tens of thousands of jobs. That "nth" degree attitude is what drove Judge Wagner into making this ruling.

It's about putting self-destructive extremists in check.
It's OK T. The multi nationals will find a country where environmental damage is kept off ledger. :thumb:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

:(
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Col Hogan »

mainejeff wrote: CONKS don't get it.

:coffee:
kalm wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
Yes, they do, Mao.

It's no longer about protecting the environment, it's about destroying humanity. When the NRDC was queried by Judge Wagner last year whether they'd consider allowing limited water delivery if it meant killing even ONE smelt, the NRDC's response was that they had to "enforce" a zero-tolerance policy, even if it meant the loss of billions to agriculture and tens of thousands of jobs. That "nth" degree attitude is what drove Judge Wagner into making this ruling.

It's about putting self-destructive extremists in check.
It's OK T. The multi nationals will find a country where environmental damage is kept off ledger. :thumb:
mainejeff wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

:(
So...protection of some fish....AT ANY COST...is acceptable......

Donks don't get it... :ohno:
“Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Baldy »

Col Hogan wrote:
mainejeff wrote: CONKS don't get it.

:coffee:
kalm wrote:
It's OK T. The multi nationals will find a country where environmental damage is kept off ledger. :thumb:
mainejeff wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

:(
So...protection of some fish....AT ANY COST...is acceptable......

Donks don't get it... :ohno:
Yes...so much for serving the "greater good". :ohno:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Gil Dobie »

Man builds a dam, kills fish and it's environmental destruction, Beaver builds a dam and kills fish and it's a natural wonder. :o
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by kalm »

Gil Dobie wrote:Man builds a dam, kills fish and it's environmental destruction, Beaver builds a dam and kills fish and it's a natural wonder. :o
Beaver dams typically improve habitat for fish.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by travelinman67 »

kalm wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:Man builds a dam, kills fish and it's environmental destruction, Beaver builds a dam and kills fish and it's a natural wonder. :o
Beaver dams typically improve habitat for fish.
Mmm, MMM!!! Fish in a pond.
[youtube][/youtube]


Mechanically, natural dams create the same barriers as man made dams, Kalm. Your attempting to rationalize "natural" events as non-harmful to the environment, while in the same breath condemning identical "man-made" events reveals your (liberal) illogic and human self-hate.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by kalm »

travelinman67 wrote:
kalm wrote:
Beaver dams typically improve habitat for fish.
Mmm, MMM!!! Fish in a pond.
[youtube][/youtube]


Mechanically, natural dams create the same barriers as man made dams, Kalm. Your attempting to rationalize "natural" events as non-harmful to the environment, while in the same breath condemning identical "man-made" events reveals your (liberal) illogic and human self-hate.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Get back to me when beavers start building shit like this:


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I admire you're pluck though. :coffee:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by D1B »

travelinman67 wrote:
mainejeff wrote:
CONKS don't get it.

:coffee:
Yes, they do, Mao.

It's no longer about protecting the environment, it's about destroying humanity. When the NRDC was queried by Judge Wagner last year whether they'd consider allowing limited water delivery if it meant killing even ONE smelt, the NRDC's response was that they had to "enforce" a zero-tolerance policy, even if it meant the loss of billions to agriculture and tens of thousands of jobs. That "nth" degree attitude is what drove Judge Wagner into making this ruling.

It's about putting self-destructive extremists in check.

Tman, put down the nitrous bottle and quit listening to your car club buddies. They're scotch casualties from the 70's and are completely full of shit. :thumb:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by houndawg »

D1B wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
Yes, they do, Mao.

It's no longer about protecting the environment, it's about destroying humanity. When the NRDC was queried by Judge Wagner last year whether they'd consider allowing limited water delivery if it meant killing even ONE smelt, the NRDC's response was that they had to "enforce" a zero-tolerance policy, even if it meant the loss of billions to agriculture and tens of thousands of jobs. That "nth" degree attitude is what drove Judge Wagner into making this ruling.

It's about putting self-destructive extremists in check.

Tman, put down the nitrous bottle and quit listening to your car club buddies. They're scotch casualties from the 70's and are completely full of ****. :thumb:
Nitrous.............well that explains a lot..... :geek:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Gil Dobie »

kalm wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:Man builds a dam, kills fish and it's environmental destruction, Beaver builds a dam and kills fish and it's a natural wonder. :o
Beaver dams typically improve habitat for fish.
Just saying it doesn't make it so, show me a study that proves a beaver dam improves habitat for fish better than a human built dam. :coffee:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Get back to me when beavers start building **** like this:


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I admire you're pluck though. :coffee:
It's that damn FDR's fault. :lol:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by travelinman67 »

Gil Dobie wrote:
kalm wrote:
Beaver dams typically improve habitat for fish.
Just saying it doesn't make it so, show me a study that proves a beaver dam improves habitat for fish better than a human built dam. :coffee:
They can't...

...this is the point when Douche and Kalm try to make funny or go personal...

...once they recognize their gonna get another ass whuppin.

Enviro-whacko fail.

Again.
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by kalm »

travelinman67 wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Just saying it doesn't make it so, show me a study that proves a beaver dam improves habitat for fish better than a human built dam. :coffee:
They can't...

...this is the point when Douche and Kalm try to make funny or go personal...

...once they recognize their gonna get another ass whuppin.

Enviro-whacko fail.

Again.
Depends on the size of the stream, the type of fish, and the overall ecosystem. For instance, Grand Coulee Dam forever halted the run of pacific salmon and steelhead that swam up 100's of miles of the Upper Columbia River System including the Spokane River to their native creeks to spawn, but it also created habitat for transplanted species of fish like Walleye and Large Mouth Bass.

The BLM has reintroduced beavers in a number of areas out west specifically to rehabilitate riparian habitat zones. In these instances, the beaver dams broaden and slow down the creek in certain places which encourages the growth of streamside grasses, trees, and underbrush and creates larger deep pools of open water. In other places where the water poors over the dams it creates narrow, highly oxygenated runs. Trout and other critters can thrive in both of these scenarios and it also helps with bank erosion and lessens sediment load during times of runoff.

In larger river systems like the Sacremento or Columbia that have runs of anadramous fish, the main rivers are of course too large for beavers to dam. However beaver dams in the smaller tributaries where the fish spawn can prevent passage. However, mother nature has a tendency to self correct by occassionally wiping out the dams during years of exceptionally high runoff. This creates a balance and helps keep the beavers employed. In any event, there was a hell of lot better fishing for native species back when the beavers were the only dam builders.

There you go, T. "make funny free". :thumb:
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Re: Today, The Earth Stood Still...

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Get back to me when beavers start building **** like this:


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I admire you're pluck though. :coffee:
It's that damn FDR's fault. :lol:
:rofl: Touche Baldy. :thumb:
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