Whose fault is college debt?

[GSUhooligan]

The person who took it out. If you can't afford college without going in to debt either get a job and save until you can afford it or go into debt, but don't bitch about it. It is nobody's fault but your own.

[AZGrizFan]

There's nothing wrong with liberal arts majors like that. You pretty much have to go to graduate school if you want a good job... but, the same is true with most any undergrad degree.

Sadly it is true, most jobs are Masters required or preferred now. It is almost impossible to get a good accounting job without an MSA/MST/MBA and you will be gone within 5 years if you do not get your CPA. Do not have much knowledge in other fields, but I from what I have heard and seen they all require some advanced degree beyond the BA or BS.

You fuckin' punks all think you should start at the top. Try actually WORKING your way up a corporate ladder for a change. You don't come out of college ready to be a CEO.

[ASUG8]

It's a gamble IMHO not unlike any other investment. But it's something of a calculated risk - Med school, MBA, CPA will likely pay off. Women's studies at $60K tuition/yr will be a long road. There are no guarantees with any of it, but some paths are more likely to pay off.

[GannonFan]

Sadly it is true, most jobs are Masters required or preferred now. It is almost impossible to get a good accounting job without an MSA/MST/MBA and you will be gone within 5 years if you do not get your CPA. Do not have much knowledge in other fields, but I from what I have heard and seen they all require some advanced degree beyond the BA or BS.

You ****' punks all think you should start at the top. Try actually WORKING your way up a corporate ladder for a change. You don't come out of college ready to be a CEO.

I agree - most places you can start just fine as a 22 year old with a Bachelor's degree only. If a higher degree is required to move up to the better jobs, then most of the time, in good companies, you can have them foot most if not all of the bill for the advanced degree. I got a ChemE bachelor's, got a good starting job, and then they paid for all of my MBA. Like you say, not everyone needs or should or will start at the top. I always wonder about those kids who go straight to grad school following undergrad - if you're not a doctor or a lawyer or only interested in an academic job then why are you doing that? Kids who come out as MBA's without ever holding down a real job before are just head scratchers to me - who's hiring those people?

[GannonFan]

It's a gamble IMHO not unlike any other investment. But it's something of a calculated risk - Med school, MBA, CPA will likely pay off. Women's studies at $60K tuition/yr will be a long road. There are no guarantees with any of it, but some paths are more likely to pay off.

Yup - women's studies is like playing poker and choosing to stay in with just a pair of 2's (or nothing). Yes, theoretically you could win, but bluffing into a good career is harder than bluffing a hand of cards.

[Skjellyfetti]

A friend of mine insists that high school counselors should be required to sit down with each graduate and say, "look, here is how much your school is going to cost you, here is what you can expect (mean, median, and minimum) to make per year with your intended major, and here is the ratio of job opening to applicants in that field. Does this all add up?" May that would help people at least think to add a fall-back or more practical second major if they are doing something obscure and/or difficult to get in to.

I also like the rule of thumb that says you shouldn't take on educational debt that is greater than your expected first year salary upon graduation.

Good in theory, but most people don't know what they're going to major in when they're in high school. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

[Skjellyfetti]

You ****' punks all think you should start at the top. Try actually WORKING your way up a corporate ladder for a change. You don't come out of college ready to be a CEO.

I'm staying as far away from the corporate ladder as possible.

[ASUG8]

A friend of mine insists that high school counselors should be required to sit down with each graduate and say, "look, here is how much your school is going to cost you, here is what you can expect (mean, median, and minimum) to make per year with your intended major, and here is the ratio of job opening to applicants in that field. Does this all add up?" May that would help people at least think to add a fall-back or more practical second major if they are doing something obscure and/or difficult to get in to.

I also like the rule of thumb that says you shouldn't take on educational debt that is greater than your expected first year salary upon graduation.

Good in theory, but most people don't know what they're going to major in when they're in high school. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

Agreed Jelly - too bad we can't all be subsidized like Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian and just run around partying all the time until we figure out which direction our compass will lead us - you have to make a choice pretty early in your life what you're going to do with the rest of your life, and you have to be responsible for that decision like it or not.

[TheDancinMonarch]

A friend of mine insists that high school counselors should be required to sit down with each graduate and say, "look, here is how much your school is going to cost you, here is what you can expect (mean, median, and minimum) to make per year with your intended major, and here is the ratio of job opening to applicants in that field. Does this all add up?" May that would help people at least think to add a fall-back or more practical second major if they are doing something obscure and/or difficult to get in to.

What kind of advice do you get from a person whose "best job" is being a high school counselor?

[mebison]

A friend of mine insists that high school counselors should be required to sit down with each graduate and say, "look, here is how much your school is going to cost you, here is what you can expect (mean, median, and minimum) to make per year with your intended major, and here is the ratio of job opening to applicants in that field. Does this all add up?" May that would help people at least think to add a fall-back or more practical second major if they are doing something obscure and/or difficult to get in to.

I also like the rule of thumb that says you shouldn't take on educational debt that is greater than your expected first year salary upon graduation.

Good in theory, but most people don't know what they're going to major in when they're in high school. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

Most people have chosen a major by the time they graduate high school. Some change once they are in college, but if you've at least gone through the process of thinking about the cost and how you will pay for it once, there is a better chance you can do it again.

A friend of mine insists that high school counselors should be required to sit down with each graduate and say, "look, here is how much your school is going to cost you, here is what you can expect (mean, median, and minimum) to make per year with your intended major, and here is the ratio of job opening to applicants in that field. Does this all add up?" May that would help people at least think to add a fall-back or more practical second major if they are doing something obscure and/or difficult to get in to.

What kind of advice do you get from a person whose "best job" is being a high school counselor?

That is a fair point...I wouldn't have trusted anything my counselor said. He once told one of the smarter girls in the class that she should be a garbageman. Still, someone should have this talk!

[Franks Tanks]

This! I don't know about your areas, but around mine, it's like they're taboo. You can make plenty of money with 2 year tech degrees and do what you enjoy, but people look down on them. It's either college or bust...and people forget there's this intermediary option available to them. Simply put, not everyone is made for a four-year degree and that's absolutely fine! I'd rather have a bunch of people with two year degrees than four year college dropouts with a mountain of debt, or a person with a somewhat worthless degree. There's nothing wrong with dropping out, but that's money and spots for kids who could've finished the degree wasted.

If I could go back to when I decided to transfer out of Wartburg College to Hawkeye Community College I would go into a 2 year electrical program or something like that. I'd make more doing that with about 1/4th the debt.

We need more of those degrees

I have seen recent studies that show we will have a glut of plumbers, electricians and the like in the next few decades. You may have found yourself chronically unemployed.

Liberal arts degrees are great. but one must understand the route they are taking. Same goes for the school they are attending and the loans thay are incurring. Problem is that those decision are dififculty to make at 18.

[andy7171]

If it weren't for football getting me into college, I'd probably have gone to work for my JV coaches plumbing company.
...and I'd be making close to twice what I make these days? Did I make the right decision?

[andy7171]

Oh and I blame this girl for going to a top college for a nothing degree and then choosing to live in one of the most expensive places in the world.

[Pwns]

You ****' punks all think you should start at the top. Try actually WORKING your way up a corporate ladder for a change. You don't come out of college ready to be a CEO.

I agree - most places you can start just fine as a 22 year old with a Bachelor's degree only. If a higher degree is required to move up to the better jobs, then most of the time, in good companies, you can have them foot most if not all of the bill for the advanced degree. I got a ChemE bachelor's, got a good starting job, and then they paid for all of my MBA. Like you say, not everyone needs or should or will start at the top. I always wonder about those kids who go straight to grad school following undergrad - if you're not a doctor or a lawyer or only interested in an academic job then why are you doing that? Kids who come out as MBA's without ever holding down a real job before are just head scratchers to me - who's hiring those people?

Actually, dgreco is right about the accounting field. You do need a masters to get a good entry-level accounting job. The same is true in the engineering field - most folks with just bachelors degrees in engineering work in either a construction or manufacturing setting - regardless of whether you majored in nuclear engineering or bioengineering or any branch of engineering. And of course both of those things aren't doing too well. There are many engineering grads these days with multiple co-ops and internships who can't find jobs and many of them do go to grad school because there are far more jobs available to you with that degree.

And it makes a lot of sense to not delay on a postgraduate degree. There's no sense in wasting any time hopping between part-time jobs in this god-awful job market, especially considering the massive impending degree inflation (see link).

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educ ... elors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GannonFan]

I agree - most places you can start just fine as a 22 year old with a Bachelor's degree only. If a higher degree is required to move up to the better jobs, then most of the time, in good companies, you can have them foot most if not all of the bill for the advanced degree. I got a ChemE bachelor's, got a good starting job, and then they paid for all of my MBA. Like you say, not everyone needs or should or will start at the top. I always wonder about those kids who go straight to grad school following undergrad - if you're not a doctor or a lawyer or only interested in an academic job then why are you doing that? Kids who come out as MBA's without ever holding down a real job before are just head scratchers to me - who's hiring those people?

Actually, dgreco is right about the accounting field. You do need a masters to get a good entry-level accounting job. The same is true in the engineering field - most folks with just bachelors degrees in engineering work in either a construction or manufacturing setting - regardless of whether you majored in nuclear engineering or bioengineering or any branch of engineering. And of course both of those things aren't doing too well. There are many engineering grads these days with multiple co-ops and internships who can't find jobs and many of them do go to grad school because there are far more jobs available to you with that degree.

And it makes a lot of sense to not delay on a postgraduate degree. There's no sense in wasting any time hopping between part-time jobs in this god-awful job market, especially considering the massive impending degree inflation (see link).

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educ ... elors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While it may be true or not in the accounting field, I can speak from experience that it is not the case in the engineering field - you don't need a master's degree to get a job. There are many grads today who can't find jobs because frankly, there just aren't a lot of jobs for any field right now, regardless of your education level. And master degrees in engineering are not even widely sought after - if engineering grads stay in school, it's often to get doctorates (to either teach or to pursue research). Engineers will puruse PE licsenses if those are necessary (more so in Civil fields) or they will go the MBA route (or something like that) to help move into management positions later on, but master's degrees in an actual engineering field are pretty unneccessary. Experience will easily trump a degree like that, especially if you go straight through and get a master's degree before ever really working anywhere. What place would hire a person with a master's degree and no experience versus one with a bachelor's and actual experience? Especially if you need to pay the person with the masters more money? If people are staying in school today, it's because there aren't any jobs anywhere (which is pretty close to the truth).

[JMU DJ]

What place would hire a person with a master's degree and no experience versus one with a bachelor's and actual experience? Especially if you need to pay the person with the masters more money?

Science/medical fields.

[Pwns]

Experience will easily trump a degree like that, especially if you go straight through and get a master's degree before ever really working anywhere. What place would hire a person with a master's degree and no experience versus one with a bachelor's and actual experience? Especially if you need to pay the person with the masters more money? If people are staying in school today, it's because there aren't any jobs anywhere (which is pretty close to the truth).

That's true, GannonFan, but jobs where you can get the experience you need aren't easy to come by. It's hard to get the real experience that could be useful if the only things you can find after college graduation are mundane part-time jobs that really aren't any more valuable for a resume than many jobs you do on the side while in college or graduate school. Taking a couple of years to get a masters makes far more sense than working these jobs and hoping the job market gets better while a record number of people are getting undergrad degrees. And who says you need to pay someone with a masters more money? That might be true in education but isn't necessarily true in the private sector.

[Franks Tanks]

I agree - most places you can start just fine as a 22 year old with a Bachelor's degree only. If a higher degree is required to move up to the better jobs, then most of the time, in good companies, you can have them foot most if not all of the bill for the advanced degree. I got a ChemE bachelor's, got a good starting job, and then they paid for all of my MBA. Like you say, not everyone needs or should or will start at the top. I always wonder about those kids who go straight to grad school following undergrad - if you're not a doctor or a lawyer or only interested in an academic job then why are you doing that? Kids who come out as MBA's without ever holding down a real job before are just head scratchers to me - who's hiring those people?

Actually, dgreco is right about the accounting field. You do need a masters to get a good entry-level accounting job. The same is true in the engineering field - most folks with just bachelors degrees in engineering work in either a construction or manufacturing setting - regardless of whether you majored in nuclear engineering or bioengineering or any branch of engineering. And of course both of those things aren't doing too well. There are many engineering grads these days with multiple co-ops and internships who can't find jobs and many of them do go to grad school because there are far more jobs available to you with that degree.

And it makes a lot of sense to not delay on a postgraduate degree. There's no sense in wasting any time hopping between part-time jobs in this god-awful job market, especially considering the massive impending degree inflation (see link).

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educ ... elors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know dozens of people who went to work for a Big 4 accounting firm with just a Bachelors. Ernst & Young, Deloitte, KPMG-- you know who they are. Some of these folks went on to earn MBA's and others did not. Most are senior auditors by this point and doing very well.

Gannon Fan is dead on about the engineering profession. Just about every engineer I know who continued their education did an MBA. One or two are working toward a PHD, but that is a bit rare it appears.

[TheDancinMonarch]

Looking at it from another perspective, college wouldn't be so expensive if you didn't have to pay professors so much money to teach so few classes. I have a neighbor who makes in excess of $125,000 to teach 2 classes a semester with no additional administrative responsibilities. The rest of him time is spent earning his grant money.

Now to be sure he is not typical but he also is not the only one doing it.

[clenz]

What place would hire a person with a master's degree and no experience versus one with a bachelor's and actual experience? Especially if you need to pay the person with the masters more money?

Science/medical fields.

Law field

[dbackjon]

Looking at it from another perspective, college wouldn't be so expensive if you didn't have to pay professors so much money to teach so few classes. I have a neighbor who makes in excess of $125,000 to teach 2 classes a semester with no additional administrative responsibilities. The rest of him time is spent earning his grant money.

Now to be sure he is not typical but he also is not the only one doing it.

Does the grant money cover part of his salary?

[JMU DJ]

Looking at it from another perspective, college wouldn't be so expensive if you didn't have to pay professors so much money to teach so few classes. I have a neighbor who makes in excess of $125,000 to teach 2 classes a semester with no additional administrative responsibilities. The rest of him time is spent earning his grant money.

Now to be sure he is not typical but he also is not the only one doing it.

This is the erroneous argument made by those who don't understand how professors on grants actually earn their money. 2-3 classes a semester is a heavy load for a professor at the collegiate level to teach when you consider all of the outside work the professor must do to run the courses. If he has a research grant that he obtained, chances are he has to give 50% of that money to university. The other 50% is used to fund his research/salary (pay for graduate students, research techs, professional researchers, lab/research equipment and reagents, provide time for undergraduate research, etc). You also must consider, if your professor friend works with other students on undergraduate/graduate research projects, these are considered teaching hours as he is mentoring these students and teaching them.


So, Professor A receives a 5 year grant worth $2 million. $1 million goes straight to the university. I wouldn't worry so much about the salary of a professor who has obtained their own funding through grants. Now if you wanted to make this argument for a professor who doesn't have a grant, go ahead, but I will tell you now, professors who have not secured their own funding/don't work in a field that requires grant funding, teach numerous classes.

[dgreco]

Actually, dgreco is right about the accounting field. You do need a masters to get a good entry-level accounting job. The same is true in the engineering field - most folks with just bachelors degrees in engineering work in either a construction or manufacturing setting - regardless of whether you majored in nuclear engineering or bioengineering or any branch of engineering. And of course both of those things aren't doing too well. There are many engineering grads these days with multiple co-ops and internships who can't find jobs and many of them do go to grad school because there are far more jobs available to you with that degree.

And it makes a lot of sense to not delay on a postgraduate degree. There's no sense in wasting any time hopping between part-time jobs in this god-awful job market, especially considering the massive impending degree inflation (see link).

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educ ... elors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know dozens of people who went to work for a Big 4 accounting firm with just a Bachelors. Ernst & Young, Deloitte, KPMG-- you know who they are. Some of these folks went on to earn MBA's and others did not. Most are senior auditors by this point and doing very well.

Gannon Fan is dead on about the engineering profession. Just about every engineer I know who continued their education did an MBA. One or two are working toward a PHD, but that is a bit rare it appears.

Yes you can get in Big 4 accounting, almost half of the Bryant grads work there way into that, but PwC requires all new associates to go off to Northeastern for their MSA, Deloitte requires all their associates to go off to school and most opt for Bentley MST's or MBAs. Also, to even sit for the CPA exam in most states now you need 150 education hours, which is a Bachelors and a Masters.

Also, the none-big4 competition is so fierce right now that if you are not already sitting for sections of the CPA or have an advanced degree you will not get a job. Big4 is a little different in that they have a system in place that works well and they pigeon-hole their associates and most leave after their tour of duty.

Working in a mid-sized accounting firm I go out with other associates for interviews and right now the only people with interviews are MST/MSA some MBA candidates and they all are on pace to pass all sections of the CPA exam before the 2011 switch. The sad thing is that students right out of Bryant who would normally be recruited are not even getting looked at and they are all going to small firms or struggling to work in none public accounting fields.

Again, as little as 3 years ago it was completely different, but it is much different now and it is exacerbated by the fact that you now have 2+ classes of undergrads applying for first year associates along with 2+ classes of advanced degree and/or CPA licenses grads applying for 3-4 positions.

The worst part has been our internship program, we would normally take on approximately 8-10 students per year, all paid (and well), and we are now down to 5 and only three are paid. Keep in mind we are a fairly large mid-sized firm with 25 partners/shareholders and over 80 associates in our office main office.

[Franks Tanks]

I know dozens of people who went to work for a Big 4 accounting firm with just a Bachelors. Ernst & Young, Deloitte, KPMG-- you know who they are. Some of these folks went on to earn MBA's and others did not. Most are senior auditors by this point and doing very well.

Gannon Fan is dead on about the engineering profession. Just about every engineer I know who continued their education did an MBA. One or two are working toward a PHD, but that is a bit rare it appears.

Yes you can get in Big 4 accounting, almost half of the Bryant grads work there way into that, but PwC requires all new associates to go off to Northeastern for their MSA, Deloitte requires all their associates to go off to school and most opt for Bentley MST's or MBAs. Also, to even sit for the CPA exam in most states now you need 150 education hours, which is a Bachelors and a Masters.

Also, the none-big4 competition is so fierce right now that if you are not already sitting for sections of the CPA or have an advanced degree you will not get a job. Big4 is a little different in that they have a system in place that works well and they pigeon-hole their associates and most leave after their tour of duty.

Working in a mid-sized accounting firm I go out with other associates for interviews and right now the only people with interviews are MST/MSA some MBA candidates and they all are on pace to pass all sections of the CPA exam before the 2011 switch. The sad thing is that students right out of Bryant who would normally be recruited are not even getting looked at and they are all going to small firms or struggling to work in none public accounting fields.

Again, as little as 3 years ago it was completely different, but it is much different now and it is exacerbated by the fact that you now have 2+ classes of undergrads applying for first year associates along with 2+ classes of advanced degree and/or CPA licenses grads applying for 3-4 positions.

The worst part has been our internship program, we would normally take on approximately 8-10 students per year, all paid (and well), and we are now down to 5 and only three are paid. Keep in mind we are a fairly large mid-sized firm with 25 partners/shareholders and over 80 associates in our office main office.

I am not going to challenge your knowledge of the subject as this is clearly your field. All I can say is that I knew many people who stared in Big 4 firms 7-10 years ago. Most have attended MBA programs, or masters programs, with the firm and most have moved on as you state.

It was a different time then, and it sad to see that even accounting majors are having trouble finding places.

[dgreco]

^Sad as it is if you made your comment to Spring 2008 students that would be true, unfortunately it has just gotten worse for 09, 10, and it looks to be horrible for 11 grads since recruiting is starting up in the fall.

I will agree with the engineering comments, from what I have heard you can still find decent work and 3 or so years ago if you went on to law school no matter where you were almost guaranteed a great 6 figure salary for doing IP. I have heard it has gotten harder, and even the hard science IP people are beginning to feel the pressure a little. Danefan (or some other lawyers who may be on the boards) would be better equipped to discuss that field though, because what I know is only from the perspectives of an upcoming first year law student (and almost everyone I talk to gives me the gloom and doom speech for me leaving my current career path) and not someone in the field.