Nice Timeline of Incompetence...

[GannonFan]

Haliburton and BP together...

Environmentalists and Big Government together...

Environmentalists Also To Blame For Exxon Valdez And Gulf Spills
Posted 06/01/2010 06:54 PM ET

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysi ... pills.aspx

...The original plan when oil was discovered at Prudhoe Bay on Alaska's North Slope was to build a pipeline directly to the northern border of the 48 contiguous states. Groups like the Sierra Club waged a major battle against both the Prudhoe Bay development and the pipeline.

They lost on the drilling but won a small victory in forcing the pipeline to not traverse the continent via a safer land route but to dead end at the port of Valdez, Alaska. The rest, as they say, is history.

Had the oil companies gotten their way, there would have been no tanker to be run aground by its captain on March 24, 1989, causing 10.8 million gallons of crude oil to be dumped into Alaskan waters.

On Sunday's "Meet The Press," NBC's David Gregory asked if environmental zeal might have also contributed to Deepwater Horizon. "Is the problem that we're drilling in water that's just too deep?" he asked Carol Browner, director of the White House Office of Energy and Climate Change Policy and former EPA administrator in the Clinton administration.

"Should you even rethink your own approach to the environment to say, 'Maybe in the Arctic Wildlife Reserve, we ought to be drilling there. We ought to be going into shallower waters so that this can be done more safely?'"

Browner tap-danced around the question by saying it was one of the things to think about while we shut down the domestic oil industry. Browner et al. should indeed think about the fact that if British Petroleum and others were not barred from drilling in ANWR or in the shallower water of the Outer Continental Shelf, we might not be having this conversation.

Out west we may have what could be called a "Persia on the Plains." A Rand Corp. study says the Green River Formation covering parts of Colorado, Utah and Wyoming has the largest known oil shale deposits in the world, holding from 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil. It's all on dry land, but it's all locked up by federal edict.

Environmentalists, aided and abetted by Democratic Sen. Bob Casey of Pennsylvania, now want to stop us from unlocking our vast reserves of natural gas locked up in shale using a technique called hydraulic fracturing or "fracking." The technique involves injecting liquids under pressure, 95% of which is water, into the shale rock to release the trapped gas.

Casey has introduced legislation to remove fracking's long-standing exemption in the Safe Drinking Water Act that allows energy companies to use the process. He claims the process endangers America's drinking water, though fracking is done thousands of feet below the groundwater table and there's never been a case of groundwater contamination caused by fracking.

"This 60-year-old technique has been responsible for 7 billion barrels of oil and 600 trillion cubic feet of natural gas," according to Sen. James Inhofe, ranking member of the Environment and Public Works Committee. "In hydraulic fracturing's 60-year-history, there has not been a single documented case of contamination."

Casey's Pennsylvania contains a major portion of the Marcellus Shale Formation covering 34 million acres in New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, West Virginia and Kentucky. SUNY-Fredonia geologist Gary Lash and colleague Terry Engelder of Penn State estimate that Marcellus holds 1,300 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Those who would ban fracking also need to consider that if oil companies rather than environmentalists were allowed to decide how to drill for and deliver oil, neither the Exxon Valdez nor the Deepwater Horizon spills need to have happened.

"Yeah, but if there wuz no more gasleen, we cans live off windmills. Yer so stupid, Tman."

Not a bad point - we are drilling in areas that are even less explored and we know less about than even outer space - one of the reasons why we seem to have so little know-how on how to fix a problem that deep in the ocean when it happens.

Of course, we also have to look at the systematic approach, over the past almost 40 years, to keep nuclear power out of America - makes you wonder how we would be set today for energy needs if we hadn't closed ourselves off to an already developed source of power for so long.

[dbackjon]

GannonFan hits a winner...

And quoting Carol Browner makes you lose ANY credibility on the post.

Big Oil has shown it can't drill/transport ANYWHERE without a tight leash - something that you have been unwilling to put on them.

[GannonFan]

GannonFan hits a winner...

And quoting Carol Browner makes you lose ANY credibility on the post.

Big Oil has shown it can't drill/transport ANYWHERE without a tight leash - something that you have been unwilling to put on them.

I'm confused, am I losing credibility? Have I said that Big Oil shouldn't be properly regulated?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Really? It has said bandwith exceeded for me for at least a couple of weeks. Must be on my end.

You said "avatar". It still works. His siggy is a no go.

btk, you are being an AZGrizfan. Stop it.

Hmmm. My signature shows up for me. But it's broken for y'all?

it's been down for at least a week and figured you would fix it if it was down so you must not know it.

[travelinman67]

Not a bad point - we are drilling in areas that are even less explored and we know less about than even outer space - one of the reasons why we seem to have so little know-how on how to fix a problem that deep in the ocean when it happens.

Of course, we also have to look at the systematic approach, over the past almost 40 years, to keep nuclear power out of America - makes you wonder how we would be set today for energy needs if we hadn't closed ourselves off to an already developed source of power for so long.

I think dback was responding to my citing the (uber dogmatic, dishonest, leftist) Energy Czar Browner interview by MSM...

On topic, one needs to look at WHO and WHY our nation has blocked nuclear. The WHO are the Dems (Bob Mulholland, DNC chair in CA, ran the campaign to close Rancho Seco and participated in the campaign to close OR's Trojan), and WHY was their mythical belief that nuclear power facilitated nuclear arms and created environmentally damaging waste: Both fallaciously derived from close-minded liberalism.

Jon, and the lib talking-heads, need to take ownership of these failed environmental/liberal policies, acknowledge they lead to worsening economic and environmental catastrophes, then move forward to develop less dogmatic, more enlightened, BALANCED industrial policies which allow America to survive, COMPETE, and provide a higher quality of life for every American.

[93henfan]

I'm all for safe, well-regulated nuclear power, but you have to admit that environmental concerns are absolutely valid. You can't just write off the concerns as "liberalism".

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD9FI7LJ80

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD9G1C1300

[Baldy]

Jon, and the lib talking-heads, need to take ownership of these failed environmental/liberal policies, acknowledge they lead to worsening economic and environmental catastrophes, then move forward to develop less dogmatic, more enlightened, BALANCED industrial policies which allow America to survive, COMPETE, and provide a higher quality of life for every American.

Don't hold your breath. Those type of policies are having the exact effect they want. Obama even said it himself. They want energy to be more expensive.

Hello Cap and Tax.

[GannonFan]

I'm all for safe, well-regulated nuclear power, but you have to admit that environmental concerns are absolutely valid. You can't just write off the concerns as "liberalism".

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD9FI7LJ80

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD9G1C1300

I agree, there are tremendously obvious perils of nuclear energy done poorly. However, there's also no denying that the stance to cut off any new nuclear plants for the past 30-40 years has gone a long way to stymiing (sp) the nuclear industry in this country and forcing us to try to nurse along old nuclear power plants (like the two you reference there - one is over 40 years old and another close to it) that were built well before the significant progress in nuclear safety that has developed over the past few decades. It's like we've chosen the worst of all options - we have a bunch of old nuclear power plants that are well past their useful life and ones that should've been upgraded replaced years ago, but because we've been so anti-nuclear for so long we don't have new improved ones to turn to and we hold onto the dinosaurs.

We know it works, we know we can do it many times safely than when most of these plants were built 30-40 years ago, we know with current technology that the amount of generated waste is lower than ever before (and the industry on remediation/reuse of the waste only gets better as more and more plants are built - look how mature that industry is in France), we know it can signficantly cut the US's greenhouse gas emissions (whether you believe in climate change or not, there's no denying the fact that lowering those emissions is a good idea), and if we went with knocking down the barriers that exist to even build a single new plant we could buy the time we need (maybe upwards to half a century) to really develop some of these other alternatives, like solar and wind, that currently are decades away at best at giving up anything worthwhile - heck, hopefully we'll find a real answer while looking.

There's plenty of oil out there to keep us going for another century or even further - but the problem is that it gets harder and harder to get at it. Unless we want to keep drilling at depths we haven't even really explored let alone fully understand (and as can be seen here, have plenty of trouble dealing with should something actually go wrong) then we need to be real about using other technologies we know how to use.

[GannonFan]

Jon, and the lib talking-heads, need to take ownership of these failed environmental/liberal policies, acknowledge they lead to worsening economic and environmental catastrophes, then move forward to develop less dogmatic, more enlightened, BALANCED industrial policies which allow America to survive, COMPETE, and provide a higher quality of life for every American.

Don't hold your breath. Those type of policies are having the exact effect they want. Obama even said it himself. They want energy to be more expensive.

Hello Cap and Tax.

And that's a real negative that could come out of this - we may feel it necessary to rid ourselves of this evil that is oil that we arbitrarily boost the price of oil-derived energy here in the US. Of course, that will lead us to use less oil, but in the meantime other countries around the world will now see the price of oil, already low enough that it still crowds out other sources of energy, drop even further. So we'll hamstring ourselves with high energy costs while other locales will not have those issues. It would be far better, rather than making our energy more expensive, looking to find ways to lower the energy costs of things that have not been used enough of recently - getting rid of the systematic obstacles to nuclear power, lowering the protectionist tarriff on imported ethanol (i.e. sugar based Brazilian ethanol), opening up more natural gas exploration, etc. If all we do is raise the price of oil here for the US, all that does is make the US even less attractive to site a business. If we're going to do that, we need to take steps to make other things to be real, viable alternatives.

[D1B]

Not a bad point - we are drilling in areas that are even less explored and we know less about than even outer space - one of the reasons why we seem to have so little know-how on how to fix a problem that deep in the ocean when it happens.

Of course, we also have to look at the systematic approach, over the past almost 40 years, to keep nuclear power out of America - makes you wonder how we would be set today for energy needs if we hadn't closed ourselves off to an already developed source of power for so long.

I think dback was responding to my citing the (uber dogmatic, dishonest, leftist) Energy Czar Browner interview by MSM...

On topic, one needs to look at WHO and WHY our nation has blocked nuclear. The WHO are the Dems (Bob Mulholland, DNC chair in CA, ran the campaign to close Rancho Seco and participated in the campaign to close OR's Trojan), and WHY was their mythical belief that nuclear power facilitated nuclear arms and created environmentally damaging waste: Both fallaciously derived from close-minded liberalism.

Jon, and the lib talking-heads, need to take ownership of these failed environmental/liberal policies, acknowledge they lead to worsening economic and environmental catastrophes, then move forward to develop less dogmatic, more enlightened, BALANCED industrial policies which allow America to survive, COMPETE, and provide a higher quality of life for every American.

It's only a higher quality of life in the short term, just ask the fucks near the gulf.

We're overpopulating the planet, when is enough, enough?

[AZGrizFan]

You said "avatar". It still works. His siggy is a no go.

btk, you are being an AZGrizfan. Stop it.

Hmmm. My signature shows up for me. But it's broken for y'all?

it's been down for at least a week and figured you would fix it if it was down so you must not know it.

WTF? Why you gotta be that way?

[dbackjon]

I have always supported nuclear power.

If we poured the subsidies into nuclear power and alternative energies that we did into petroleum, we would maybe be ahead of the game.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

I have always supported nuclear power.

If we poured the subsidies into nuclear power and alternative energies that we did into petroleum, we would maybe be ahead of the game.

The oil companies have too much money and power to allow that to happen. $.02

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I think dback was responding to my citing the (uber dogmatic, dishonest, leftist) Energy Czar Browner interview by MSM...

On topic, one needs to look at WHO and WHY our nation has blocked nuclear. The WHO are the Dems (Bob Mulholland, DNC chair in CA, ran the campaign to close Rancho Seco and participated in the campaign to close OR's Trojan), and WHY was their mythical belief that nuclear power facilitated nuclear arms and created environmentally damaging waste: Both fallaciously derived from close-minded liberalism.

Jon, and the lib talking-heads, need to take ownership of these failed environmental/liberal policies, acknowledge they lead to worsening economic and environmental catastrophes, then move forward to develop less dogmatic, more enlightened, BALANCED industrial policies which allow America to survive, COMPETE, and provide a higher quality of life for every American.

It's only a higher quality of life in the short term, just ask the fucks near the gulf.

We're overpopulating the planet, when is enough, enough?

If you mean "we" as in the US then we are not overpopulating the planet. In fact I think our birth rate is now under what it would need to be to sustain a culture. Same with the Europeans I believe so the overpopulation is coming from elsewhere.

[mrklean]

You keep leaving out Obama.

He was the one that got them the exemption from the EIS.

Lets be consistent here................

A Griz you have NEVR been consistent when it comes to President Obama If you could, you would blame Obama for the assassination of JFK and MLK.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

You keep leaving out Obama.

He was the one that got them the exemption from the EIS.

Lets be consistent here................

A Griz you have NEVR been consistent when it comes to President Obama If you could, you would blame Obama for the assassination of JFK and MLK.

He has been nothing but consistent klean.

[bobbythekidd]

btk, you are being an AZGrizfan. Stop it.


it's been down for at least a week and figured you would fix it if it was down so you must not know it.

WTF? Why you gotta be that way?

[mrklean]

A Griz you have NEVR been consistent when it comes to President Obama If you could, you would blame Obama for the assassination of JFK and MLK.

He has been nothing but consistent klean.

What the HELL could Obama Do? Hes not a Certified Deep Sea Diver!
he could get the U.S. Navy in it and do what. BP can Hire better Divers than the U.S. Navy. Everything is 20/20 after the fact. At least he cares. Look and what the Repuks have been saying for 4 year. Drill baby Drill. No ones saying this crap now!!!! Like I said before, NO matter what Obama does you will find something to bitch about.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

He has been nothing but consistent klean.

What the HELL could Obama Do? Hes not a Certified Deep Sea Diver!
he could get the U.S. Navy in it and do what. BP can Hire better Divers than the U.S. Navy. Everything is 20/20 after the fact. At least he cares. Look and what the Repuks have been saying for 4 year. Drill baby Drill. No ones saying this crap now!!!! Like I said before, NO matter what Obama does you will find something to bitch about.

will I

[travelinman67]

What the HELL could Obama Do? Hes not a Certified Deep Sea Diver!
he could get the U.S. Navy in it and do what. BP can Hire better Divers than the U.S. Navy. Everything is 20/20 after the fact. At least he cares. Look and what the Repuks have been saying for 4 year. Drill baby Drill. No ones saying this crap now!!!! Like I said before, NO matter what Obama does you will find something to bitch about.

will I

"Cough!! Cough!! Sestakagan!! Cough!! Romanoffrendell!! Cough!! Specialprosecutor!! Ahchoo!!"

[CID1990]

He has been nothing but consistent klean.

What the HELL could Obama Do? Hes not a Certified Deep Sea Diver!
he could get the U.S. Navy in it and do what. BP can Hire better Divers than the U.S. Navy. Everything is 20/20 after the fact. At least he cares. Look and what the Repuks have been saying for 4 year. Drill baby Drill. No ones saying this crap now!!!! Like I said before, NO matter what Obama does you will find something to bitch about.

Who the fvck gave Klean this URL?

BTW.... what the HELL could Bush do? He's not a certified levee builder/bus driver/rescue swimmer/FEMA manager! He could have gotten the National Guard in to do what? Louisiana could have hired better emergency workers than the National Guard! Everything is 20/20 after the fact!

[BDKJMU]

Haliburton and BP together...

Environmentalists and Big Government together...

Environmentalists Also To Blame For Exxon Valdez And Gulf Spills
Posted 06/01/2010 06:54 PM ET

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysi ... pills.aspx

...The original plan when oil was discovered at Prudhoe Bay on Alaska's North Slope was to build a pipeline directly to the northern border of the 48 contiguous states. Groups like the Sierra Club waged a major battle against both the Prudhoe Bay development and the pipeline.

They lost on the drilling but won a small victory in forcing the pipeline to not traverse the continent via a safer land route but to dead end at the port of Valdez, Alaska. The rest, as they say, is history.

Had the oil companies gotten their way, there would have been no tanker to be run aground by its captain on March 24, 1989, causing 10.8 million gallons of crude oil to be dumped into Alaskan waters.

On Sunday's "Meet The Press," NBC's David Gregory asked if environmental zeal might have also contributed to Deepwater Horizon. "Is the problem that we're drilling in water that's just too deep?" he asked Carol Browner, director of the White House Office of Energy and Climate Change Policy and former EPA administrator in the Clinton administration.

"Should you even rethink your own approach to the environment to say, 'Maybe in the Arctic Wildlife Reserve, we ought to be drilling there. We ought to be going into shallower waters so that this can be done more safely?'"

Browner tap-danced around the question by saying it was one of the things to think about while we shut down the domestic oil industry. Browner et al. should indeed think about the fact that if British Petroleum and others were not barred from drilling in ANWR or in the shallower water of the Outer Continental Shelf, we might not be having this conversation.

Out west we may have what could be called a "Persia on the Plains." A Rand Corp. study says the Green River Formation covering parts of Colorado, Utah and Wyoming has the largest known oil shale deposits in the world, holding from 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil. It's all on dry land, but it's all locked up by federal edict.

Environmentalists, aided and abetted by Democratic Sen. Bob Casey of Pennsylvania, now want to stop us from unlocking our vast reserves of natural gas locked up in shale using a technique called hydraulic fracturing or "fracking." The technique involves injecting liquids under pressure, 95% of which is water, into the shale rock to release the trapped gas.

Casey has introduced legislation to remove fracking's long-standing exemption in the Safe Drinking Water Act that allows energy companies to use the process. He claims the process endangers America's drinking water, though fracking is done thousands of feet below the groundwater table and there's never been a case of groundwater contamination caused by fracking.

"This 60-year-old technique has been responsible for 7 billion barrels of oil and 600 trillion cubic feet of natural gas," according to Sen. James Inhofe, ranking member of the Environment and Public Works Committee. "In hydraulic fracturing's 60-year-history, there has not been a single documented case of contamination."

Casey's Pennsylvania contains a major portion of the Marcellus Shale Formation covering 34 million acres in New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, West Virginia and Kentucky. SUNY-Fredonia geologist Gary Lash and colleague Terry Engelder of Penn State estimate that Marcellus holds 1,300 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Those who would ban fracking also need to consider that if oil companies rather than environmentalists were allowed to decide how to drill for and deliver oil, neither the Exxon Valdez nor the Deepwater Horizon spills need to have happened.

"Yeah, but if there wuz no more gasleen, we cans live off windmills. Yer so stupid, Tman."

As I said in the ""Fixing Oil Spill My Responsibility" Obama Says" Thread:
Lets see, we can be drilling in 5k feet of water, where a major spill, although rare, when it happens is very difficult to stop, and which can effect the livlihoods of tens of thousands of people for a # of years, or we can drill in a speck of ANWR in a part of it that is a barren, frozen, tundra of mud and rock, where if a spill occurs it will be relatively easy to stop and clean up and where no-one lives.