BREAKING: Appaholic Finally Agrees With W.....

[Appaholic]

...not that anyone gives a sh!t, but finally, a "W" decision I can agree with....

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/In ... -dead.aspx

...now, if they had only been smart with the lending institutions....

[AZGrizFan]

There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.

[dbackjon]

There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.

To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.

[Col Hogan]

If giving the auto industry taxpayer money with no strings is called help, then giving a heroin addict free heroin is help...doesn't cure the problem, and they'll be back for more when the free stuff runs out...

If the auto industry is to get a penny of help, the strings must be so bitter and strong that the necessary changes in management and labor occur...

Excessive management positions must be cut and executive salaries reviewed...labor costs reduced...in GM's case, the number of models needs to be reduced...just a few examples...

Otherwise, I agree...sink or swim in the marketplace...

[AZGrizFan]

There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.

To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.

I say let 'em die...just like I think they should have let the banks die...

[Appaholic]

There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.

To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.

I agree....but, I believe they are equally at fault......shitty union labor force and weak management with crappy ideas....let'em wither and die....

[HI54UNI]

Both the unions and management are at fault and I don't think the taxpayers need to bail them out. Let them declare bankruptcy. I cannot see GM going completely away. I cannot see parts of Chrysler going completely away either (like Jeep for example). Where are we going to stop? Now states and large cities are lining up for their turn at the trough. Enough is enough.

Have you seen this video GM supposedly made to try and scare everybody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfM4n1gdjM

[Appaholic]

Both the unions and management are at fault and I don't think the taxpayers need to bail them out. Let them declare bankruptcy. I cannot see GM going completely away. I cannot see parts of Chrysler going completely away either (like Jeep for example). Where are we going to stop? Now states and large cities are lining up for their turn at the trough. Enough is enough.

Have you seen this video GM supposedly made to try and scare everybody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfM4n1gdjM

Exactly.....BTW, where is it written in stone that this country must have a "Big 3" in automobile production? If they cannot compete on their own, declare bankruptcy, merge, whatever.....

[HI54UNI]

Both the unions and management are at fault and I don't think the taxpayers need to bail them out. Let them declare bankruptcy. I cannot see GM going completely away. I cannot see parts of Chrysler going completely away either (like Jeep for example). Where are we going to stop? Now states and large cities are lining up for their turn at the trough. Enough is enough.

Have you seen this video GM supposedly made to try and scare everybody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfM4n1gdjM

Exactly.....BTW, where is it written in stone that this country must have a "Big 3" in automobile production? If they cannot compete on their own, declare bankruptcy, merge, whatever.....

Very true. I read somewhere (I think it was the WSJ) when the GM-Chrysler merger talks were going on that GM's rumored plan was to stop making all Chrysler/Dodge vehicles except the minivans and Jeeps. Is there any reason to have something made by Chrysler other than those anyway (ok maybe the new Charger or the Viper)? Let em go bankrupt. Somebody will buy the desirable parts and make them work. The rest will follow Studebaker, Plymouth, Oldsmobile.

[AZGrizFan]

There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.

To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.

Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...

And WHY does it cost the same to build a high end auto and a low end auto? Unions, Jon.

God, am I glad I work in a right-to-work state.

[dbackjon]

To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.

Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...

And WHY does it cost the same to build a high end auto and a low end auto? Unions, Jon.

God, am I glad I work in a right-to-work state.

Not just the economy models, Tommie. They resisted making the big guys more fuel efficient, and then the public stopped buying them.

You union-hating has twisted your perception of reality. Sure, give the bigwigs a free pass and blame it all on the working man. Very Republican of you!

[D1B]

To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.

Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...

And WHY does it cost the same to build a high end auto and a low end auto? Unions, Jon.

God, am I glad I work in a right-to-work state.

True. However management negotiated those contracts. Management bought Washington and successfully lobbied to eliminate responsible fuel economy standards. Management made/makes shitty cars that no one wants to buy. No one put a gun to their heads. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai are doing great, in America. Detroit is a microcosm of America = Fat, Loud, Lazy and Stupid.

[D1B]

I got an idea. Rather than blow the 50 $illion, we should just send Teabagsmen69 in there to solve all their problems. That pompous ass will have them back on their feet in a few weeks.

[AZGrizFan]

Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...

And WHY does it cost the same to build a high end auto and a low end auto? Unions, Jon.

God, am I glad I work in a right-to-work state.

True. However management negotiated those contracts. Management bought Washington and successfully lobbied to eliminate responsible fuel economy standards. Management made/makes shitty cars that no one wants to buy. No one put a gun to their heads. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai are doing great, in America. Detroit is a microcosm of America = Fat, Loud, Lazy and Stupid.

I agree wholeheartedly. But management HAD to negotiate those contracts to keep the plants running. Detriot is a microcosm of Unions: Fat, Lound, Lazy and Stupid. They've ruined America. They served a purpose, they outlived their purpose, and now they've almost singlehandely brought down one of the biggest industries in the nation.

Unions suck.

[dbackjon]

The union-hating myopia on here is symptomatic of the real issues facing America.

[grizzaholic]

The union-hating myopia on here is symptomatic of the real issues facing America.

A playoff system for the BCS?

[AZGrizFan]

The union-hating myopia on here is symptomatic of the real issues facing America.

You mean the fact we just elected a communist president?

[HI54UNI]

Mitt Romney Op-Ed in the NY Times today about the bailout.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opini ... .html?_r=2

[citdog]

as of monday morning......I am closing half of my dealership and laying off 10 people.......thanks go to all of you who own a honda, kia, vw, hyuandi, bmw, mercedes benz, nissan..etc

[dbackjon]

as of monday morning......I am closing half of my dealership and laying off 10 people.......thanks go to all of you who own a honda, kia, vw, hyuandi, bmw, mercedes benz, nissan..etc

That sucks. When u say half, what do u mean?

[citdog]

as of monday morning......I am closing half of my dealership and laying off 10 people.......thanks go to all of you who own a honda, kia, vw, hyuandi, bmw, mercedes benz, nissan..etc

That sucks. When u say half, what do u mean?

saab and buick occupied one building.....pontiac ang gmc another.....now all in buick building....

[Col Hogan]

That sucks. When u say half, what do u mean?

saab and buick occupied one building.....pontiac ang gmc another.....now all in buick building....

citdog, do you agree or disagree with the contention that GM has too many product lines/name plates and should consolidate them into just a few?

[Appaholic]

as of monday morning......I am closing half of my dealership and laying off 10 people.......thanks go to all of you who own a honda, kia, vw, hyuandi, bmw, mercedes benz, nissan..etc

What about SAAB's? It sucks but the gravy train is over.....we are laying of 20% of our workforce and closing two facilities....join the club.....it sucks for all of us.....

Oh yeah, remember, if you hadn't screwed the American people producing POS's in the '70-'80's, Honda would have never been given a chance by the American people......sorry, but the American Auto Industry's problems are a fault of poor management practices, not the buying patterns of the American public......

[HI54UNI]

One issue with the proposed bailout or bankruptcy. They need to shit or get off the pot. I've been thinking about getting a GMC truck but I'm not buying until I know what is going to happen. I don't want to buy a new truck and get screwed out of a warranty when GM files for bankruptcy.

[Appaholic]

One issue with the proposed bailout or bankruptcy. They need to shit or get off the pot. I've been thinking about getting a GMC truck but I'm not buying until I know what is going to happen. I don't want to buy a new truck and get screwed out of a warranty when GM files for bankruptcy.

I'd wait as well....you better have a waranty if you buy a GM product......