Griffey decides to hang them up

[Gil Dobie]

The most direct comparison to Griffey is Mickey Mantle. Injuries curtailed their overall career numbers, but when you look carefully at the full resume, you conclude that each was the best player of his era.

cough, cough..........Willie Mays was the best player of his era, Mantle was the most popular.

[JoltinJoe]

The most direct comparison to Griffey is Mickey Mantle. Injuries curtailed their overall career numbers, but when you look carefully at the full resume, you conclude that each was the best player of his era.

cough, cough..........Willie Mays was the best player of his era, Mantle was the most popular.

If you compare Mantle and Mays at peak value, Mantle wins out. In fact, Bill James rates Mickey Mantle mid-career as the third greatest baseball player ever (behind Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner).

James rates Mantle as the best player in all of baseball for every season 1954 through 1964, except for 1963, when Mantle was injured and missed a significant portion of the season. It's rare that any player dominates as baseball's best player for that long.

Mantle's career was shortened due to seven intrusive knee surgies (in the days before arthroscopic surgey) which ripped apart his knee and rendered himself a shadow of his former self from 1965 through 1968, while Mays continued as a productive ball player into the early 70s.

When you look at Mantle's career, it effectively runs from 1951 through 1964. He was essentially done by the time he was 32. Mantle wanted to quit after the 1966 season, at 34, but he was talked into moving to first base by player representatives who wanted Mantle's support to start a player's union. They felt that Mantle's name and continued involvement in the game was essential to their success.

There is a great story about a young speedster just up from the minors who saw Mantle playing first. He decided to drop a bunt down on him, figuring he was too lame to be able to field it and throw him out. The kid laid down the bunt perfectly and Mantle had no chance. The kid was expecting to be congratulated for his intelligent play by his first base coach. Instead, the coach told him, "Son, you don't ever bunt on Mr. Mantle again."

[JMU DJ]

cough, cough..........Willie Mays was the best player of his era, Mantle was the most popular.

If you compare Mantle and Mays at peak value, Mantle wins out. In fact, Bill James rates Mickey Mantle mid-career as the third greatest baseball player ever (behind Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner).

So you're going off one guys opinion? Careful, your Yankee bias is showing.


TSN: Mantle - 17
Mays - 2

Quote from the site:

"I think I was the best baseball player I ever saw." - Willie Mays

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/lisn100.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


SABR - "The Society for American Baseball Research, or SABR for short, is the most widely recognized authority on baseball history." The Society Bill James got "Sabermetrics" from.

Mantle - 12
Mays - 8

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legenda ... b100.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JoltinJoe]

If you compare Mantle and Mays at peak value, Mantle wins out. In fact, Bill James rates Mickey Mantle mid-career as the third greatest baseball player ever (behind Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner).

So you're going off one guys opinion? Careful, your Yankee bias is showing.


TSN: Mantle - 17
Mays - 2

Quote from the site:

"I think I was the best baseball player I ever saw." - Willie Mays

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/lisn100.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


SABR - "The Society for American Baseball Research, or SABR for short, is the most widely recognized authority on baseball history." The Society Bill James got "Sabermetrics" from.

Mantle - 12
Mays - 8

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legenda ... b100.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those are overall career rankings. At the peak value mid-career, Mantle's numbers are better. It isn't just one man's opinion. I think if you compare Mantle and Mays from '54 to '64, Mantle's numbers are (slightly) better.

Here is a link to the 100 top season performances ever, measured by OPS. Now Mantle played in the '50s and '60s, an era of limited offense in comparison to the eras which preceded and followed his. Yet Mantle has four seasons which rank on this list. Mays has none.

In fact, Mantle is the only player -- other than Norm Cash who had a remarkable season in 1961 -- whose career started in the 1950s who appears on this list.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiops2.shtml

(I should note, in fairness to Mays, that he would appear on this list if you throw out some of the BS steroid seasons. Then again, Mantle would probably have a remarkable seven seasons on this list if you toss the steriod frauds off).

[JMU DJ]

So you're going off one guys opinion? Careful, your Yankee bias is showing.


TSN: Mantle - 17
Mays - 2

Quote from the site:

"I think I was the best baseball player I ever saw." - Willie Mays

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/lisn100.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


SABR - "The Society for American Baseball Research, or SABR for short, is the most widely recognized authority on baseball history." The Society Bill James got "Sabermetrics" from.

Mantle - 12
Mays - 8

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legenda ... b100.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those are overall career rankings. At the peak value mid-career, Mantle's numbers are better. It isn't just one man's opinion. I think if you compare Mantle and Mays from '54 to '64, Mantle's numbers are (slightly) better.

Oh, so we're just considering peak ... sure I agree there... but you can say that about a lot of players. At his peak, Eric Gagne may have been the best closer of all time... but he's not better than Dennis Eckersley and will never be considered so.

[JoltinJoe]

Those are overall career rankings. At the peak value mid-career, Mantle's numbers are better. It isn't just one man's opinion. I think if you compare Mantle and Mays from '54 to '64, Mantle's numbers are (slightly) better.

Oh, so we're just considering peak ... sure I agree there... but you can say that about a lot of players. At his peak, Eric Gagne may have been the best closer of all time... but he's not better than Dennis Eckersley and will never be considered so.

In Mantle's case, though, we're not talking about a mid-career blip. Mantle was baseball's best player for about a decade.

[SuperHornet]

Like, gag me with a spoon, Joe. I'll take Mays in any season of his career over Mantle. And when talking strictly Yankees, he couldn't hold Ruth's or Gehrig's jockstrap.

[bandl]

Like, gag me with a spoon, Joe.

[JoltinJoe]

Like, gag me with a spoon, Joe. I'll take Mays in any season of his career over Mantle. And when talking strictly Yankees, he couldn't hold Ruth's or Gehrig's jockstrap.

Who cares? You'd also take a sissy singles hitter with a career average slightly over .300; who isn't even in the Hall of Fame; and whose only genuine career achievement is that he managed, through sheer stubborness, to get over 14,000 At Bats by hanging on through about four dismal seasons in which he was, without a doubt, the worst first baseman in baseball. In any event, by managing to hang on to the bitter end, and long after anyone else with a modicum of pride would have hanged it up, his 14,000 At Bats translated into over 4,000 hits.



In any event, let's compare Mays v. Mantle, OPS+, 1954-1964 (bold italics indicates league leader). Mays' numbers are superlative, but Mantle's numbers are better. Three times, in fact, Mantle surpassed 200+, while Mays' best season was 175+. Mantle led the AL in OPS+ in eight of the 11 seasons between 1954 and 1964. In 9 of those 11 seasons, Mantle's OPS+ was higher than Mays' OPS+.

Mantle: Mays:

1954 158 175
1955 180 174
1956 210 146
1957 221 173
1958 188 165
1959 151 155
1960 164 159
1961 206 159
1962 196 165
1963 195 175
1964 178 172

[JMU DJ]

Like, gag me with a spoon, Joe.

What's so funny? I thought that's how everyone spoke in Cali?

[89Hen]

I have to admit that I'm not a big baseball buff, but Griffey is always an afterthought for me when thinking of the best players of all-time. This is somewhat case of genuine ECB, but actually more a combination NL/ECB. Yes, he played for the Reds, but he was in his decline and the real start of his injury bug. The fact that the Mariners made the playoffs only twice while he was there also contributes to that. I'm honestly not trying to take away from how good he was (like I could if I wanted) but he's just a player that I never though of much.

[SuperHornet]

You're limiting yourself to one stat, Joe. Mays was more than just a hitter. There's no way Mantle could have had the sort of control Mays had over that cavernous center field at the Polo Grounds, especially given the double doors that opened out on the bloody street.

[JoltinJoe]

You're limiting yourself to one stat, Joe. Mays was more than just a hitter. There's no way Mantle could have had the sort of control Mays had over that cavernous center field at the Polo Grounds, especially given the double doors that opened out on the bloody street.

Mays was the better overall outfielder and one of the most outstanding of all time. But Mantle was no slouch defensively and a near peer of Mays. Your comment that he could not have covered the "cavernous" CF at the Polo Grounds overlooks that Mantle, in his prime, was the fastest player in baseball -- even faster than Mays.

Mays had his amazing World Series over-the-shoulder catch. But don't forget that Mantle had his own World Series gem, his running, back-handed spear of a drive to deep left center at Yankee Stadium to preserve Don Larsen's perfect game. As was observed at the time, the only two CFs in baseball who could have made that play were Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle.

And I am not limiting myself to one stat. OPS and OPS+ are great stats for measuring a player's overall productivity precisely because they weigh a number of the most significant offensive stats.

PS -- Are you going to let my brutal assault on Pete Rose go completely unchallenged?. What kind of gal doesn't stand up for his man?

[SuperHornet]

I just did a comparison of Mays' and Mantle's stats. Some offensive stats (such as career BA) are a wash (Mays was .302, while Mantle was .298). Mantle has more MVP awards, but Mays has more All-Star Games. Mays had 12 Gold Gloves, while Mantle only had one. Both were first-ballot HOFers, though one could quibble about the percentage (Mays' was higher by a tad). Both made the All-Century Team, though Mays was ranked second on Sporting News' Top 100 list. Your pic sequence is probably akin to Mays' catch off of Vic Wertz' bat in the World Series.

The difference, I believe, comes in the "clubs" to which Mays belongs. He is only the second member of the 30-30 Club (HR/SB in one season), the 4th of only 7 (now) in the 20-20-20 Club (2B-3B-HR), 300-300 Club (HR/SB in a career -- only 6), 3000-500 Club (hits/HRs -- only 4), 50 HR Club TWICE. Mays was also batting champ once (runner-up twice), HR champ four times (runner-up twice), triples champ thrice, slugging and OPS champ 5x (both matched by Mantle, I believe), and SB champ 4x. Mays also has a record 7,095 outfield fielding putouts. And all of that given that he lost most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 season after being drafted into the Army.

That's not to say that Mantle sucks. Far from it. No member of the All-Century team could be said to suck. I just think that with all of this, Mays is better. And I hate the Giants almost as much as I hate the Yankees....

[SuperHornet]

I know you were smacking Pete. I've made my points about him before. No need to respond to your weak smack about one of the best all-around players in history.

[JoltinJoe]

I just did a comparison of Mays' and Mantle's stats. Some offensive stats (such as career BA) are a wash (Mays was .302, while Mantle was .298). Mantle has more MVP awards, but Mays has more All-Star Games. Mays had 12 Gold Gloves, while Mantle only had one. Both were first-ballot HOFers, though one could quibble about the percentage (Mays' was higher by a tad). Both made the All-Century Team, though Mays was ranked second on Sporting News' Top 100 list. Your pic sequence is probably akin to Mays' catch off of Vic Wertz' bat in the World Series.

The difference, I believe, comes in the "clubs" to which Mays belongs. He is only the second member of the 30-30 Club (HR/SB in one season), the 4th of only 7 (now) in the 20-20-20 Club (2B-3B-HR), 300-300 Club (HR/SB in a career -- only 6), 3000-500 Club (hits/HRs -- only 4), 50 HR Club TWICE. Mays was also batting champ once (runner-up twice), HR champ four times (runner-up twice), triples champ thrice, slugging and OPS champ 5x (both matched by Mantle, I believe), and SB champ 4x. Mays also has a record 7,095 outfield fielding putouts. And all of that given that he lost most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 season after being drafted into the Army.

That's not to say that Mantle sucks. Far from it. No member of the All-Century team could be said to suck. I just think that with all of this, Mays is better. And I hate the Giants almost as much as I hate the Yankees....

The "clubs" involving stolen bases didn't mean much in the 1950s. The stolen base was not the offensive weapon it has become today and Stengel's Yankees rarely stole bases. Mantle once joked, after the 30-30 club became so heavily discussed, that if he knew that someday people were going to make such a big deal about it, he would have done it every year.

Many of the things you focus on are the product of Mays' longevity. My point has been simply that, in the middle of their careers, Mantle was considered to be the better of the two. There is a reason for that, and that stats bear it out. Mantle was baseball's best player for most of an 11-season span between 1954 and 1964. He has four seasons ranked among the 100 most productive seasons of all times, even though he played during the 1950s and 1960s, an era of diminished offensive stats. Mays has none.

Mantle's home run per at bat ratio was better than Mays. He hit 536 homers while only having 8,102 major league at bats, or 6.7%. Mays hits 660 homers in 10,881 at bats, for a 6.1%. Give Mantle that many at bats, and he projects to 720 homers. For his part, Hank Aaron had 755 homers in 12,364 at bats, for the same 6.1% as Mays. Give Mantle as many at bats as Aaron, and Mantle projects to 818 homers. Three times Mantle managed the very rare feat of an OPS+ of 200 or more. Except for Mantle, Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby and Ted Williams, multiple seasons of OPS+ of 200 more more was virtually unheard of until the blown-up Barry Bonds arrived.

[clenz]

I have to admit that I'm not a big baseball buff, but Griffey is always an afterthought for me when thinking of the best players of all-time. This is somewhat case of genuine ECB, but actually more a combination NL/ECB. Yes, he played for the Reds, but he was in his decline and the real start of his injury bug. The fact that the Mariners made the playoffs only twice while he was there also contributes to that. I'm honestly not trying to take away from how good he was (like I could if I wanted) but he's just a player that I never though of much.

you're fucking joking about being an after thought right? Look at his numbers, watch the plays he made day in and day out so effortlessly that 99% of baseball players could only dream of making.

One of the purest swings on history.

You can't blame him for the Ms being, for the most part, a second level franchise. That is like the morons who say Marino wasn't any good because he never wins title.

[Grizalltheway]

I have to admit that I'm not a big baseball buff, but Griffey is always an afterthought for me when thinking of the best players of all-time. This is somewhat case of genuine ECB, but actually more a combination NL/ECB. Yes, he played for the Reds, but he was in his decline and the real start of his injury bug. The fact that the Mariners made the playoffs only twice while he was there also contributes to that. I'm honestly not trying to take away from how good he was (like I could if I wanted) but he's just a player that I never though of much.

you're fucking joking about being an after thought right? Look at his numbers, watch the plays he made day in and day out so effortlessly that 99% of baseball players could only dream of making.

One of the purest swings on history.

You can't blame him for the Ms being, for the most part, a second level franchise. That is like the morons who say Marino wasn't any good because he never wins title.

Hey now, that hurts...mostly because it's true.

[Willie]

cough, cough..........Willie is the best player of his era, and the most popular.

Why thank you Gil. Them's some kind words.

Spoiler: show

couldn't resist

[SuperHornet]

you're **** joking about being an after thought right? Look at his numbers, watch the plays he made day in and day out so effortlessly that 99% of baseball players could only dream of making.

One of the purest swings on history.

You can't blame him for the Ms being, for the most part, a second level franchise. That is like the morons who say Marino wasn't any good because he never wins title.

Hey now, that hurts...mostly because it's true.

Marino's not the first that pops in my mind, but that doesn't detract from the veracity of your statement, clenz. The first that I would think of would be Manning. Man, those 'Aints whomped, but he kept trying! Regardless of my comparison of Jr Griff to his dad, one could say much the same of Jr. Sr had an incredible group of teammates, particularly 74-77. Jr never had the benefit of that WHEREVER he was.

[JoltinJoe]

I have to admit that I'm not a big baseball buff, but Griffey is always an afterthought for me when thinking of the best players of all-time. This is somewhat case of genuine ECB, but actually more a combination NL/ECB. Yes, he played for the Reds, but he was in his decline and the real start of his injury bug. The fact that the Mariners made the playoffs only twice while he was there also contributes to that. I'm honestly not trying to take away from how good he was (like I could if I wanted) but he's just a player that I never though of much.

you're **** joking about being an after thought right? Look at his numbers, watch the plays he made day in and day out so effortlessly that 99% of baseball players could only dream of making.

One of the purest swings on history.

You can't blame him for the Ms being, for the most part, a second level franchise. That is like the morons who say Marino wasn't any good because he never wins title.

That's another thing. Many of Griffey's injuries resulted from plays in which he did not lie down, but instead was giving the type of effort you'd expect from a guy trying to make the team.

I made the comparison to Mantle because Griffey's numbers during his first 13 years as a Mariner were off-the-charts good. Some others in this era may have amassed more over a period of time, but at his best Griffey was for an extended period of time, the best player in baseball. He is, in my opinion, the best player of his era.

[Gil Dobie]

cough, cough..........Willie Mays was the best player of his era, Mantle was the most popular.

If you compare Mantle and Mays at peak value, Mantle wins out. In fact, Bill James rates Mickey Mantle mid-career as the third greatest baseball player ever (behind Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner).

James rates Mantle as the best player in all of baseball for every season 1954 through 1964, except for 1963, when Mantle was injured and missed a significant portion of the season. It's rare that any player dominates as baseball's best player for that long.

Mantle's career was shortened due to seven intrusive knee surgies (in the days before arthroscopic surgey) which ripped apart his knee and rendered himself a shadow of his former self from 1965 through 1968, while Mays continued as a productive ball player into the early 70s.

When you look at Mantle's career, it effectively runs from 1951 through 1964. He was essentially done by the time he was 32. Mantle wanted to quit after the 1966 season, at 34, but he was talked into moving to first base by player representatives who wanted Mantle's support to start a player's union. They felt that Mantle's name and continued involvement in the game was essential to their success.

There is a great story about a young speedster just up from the minors who saw Mantle playing first. He decided to drop a bunt down on him, figuring he was too lame to be able to field it and throw him out. The kid laid down the bunt perfectly and Mantle had no chance. The kid was expecting to be congratulated for his intelligent play by his first base coach. Instead, the coach told him, "Son, you don't ever bunt on Mr. Mantle again."

In the 1950's and 1960's Mays was batting against Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, Robin Roberts and a plethora of pitchers better than the American League. Take a look at all-star game results during their careers. The National League was a better League at the time of Mays and Mantle, but the Yankees were usually the best team. Much of that was due to the National League being more open to integrating their teams. Who were the best pitchers Mantle was hitting against Billy Pierce, Early Wynn, Bob Lemon, Bob Feller, most of which were in the twilight of their careers. The Yankees dominated a weak American League and Mantle was the Leagues best player.

[JoltinJoe]

If you compare Mantle and Mays at peak value, Mantle wins out. In fact, Bill James rates Mickey Mantle mid-career as the third greatest baseball player ever (behind Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner).

James rates Mantle as the best player in all of baseball for every season 1954 through 1964, except for 1963, when Mantle was injured and missed a significant portion of the season. It's rare that any player dominates as baseball's best player for that long.

Mantle's career was shortened due to seven intrusive knee surgies (in the days before arthroscopic surgey) which ripped apart his knee and rendered himself a shadow of his former self from 1965 through 1968, while Mays continued as a productive ball player into the early 70s.

When you look at Mantle's career, it effectively runs from 1951 through 1964. He was essentially done by the time he was 32. Mantle wanted to quit after the 1966 season, at 34, but he was talked into moving to first base by player representatives who wanted Mantle's support to start a player's union. They felt that Mantle's name and continued involvement in the game was essential to their success.

There is a great story about a young speedster just up from the minors who saw Mantle playing first. He decided to drop a bunt down on him, figuring he was too lame to be able to field it and throw him out. The kid laid down the bunt perfectly and Mantle had no chance. The kid was expecting to be congratulated for his intelligent play by his first base coach. Instead, the coach told him, "Son, you don't ever bunt on Mr. Mantle again."

In the 1950's and 1960's Mays was batting against Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, Robin Roberts and a plethora of pitchers better than the American League. Take a look at all-star game results during their careers. The National League was a better League at the time of Mays and Mantle, but the Yankees were usually the best team. Much of that was due to the National League being more open to integrating their teams. Who were the best pitchers Mantle was hitting against Billy Pierce, Early Wynn, Bob Lemon, Bob Feller, most of which were in the twilight of their careers. The Yankees dominated a weak American League and Mantle was the Leagues best player.

You really can't assess league strength based on the results of an exhibition game, but the AL went 5-9-1 against the NL during the period 1954 through 1964.


1964 Shea Stadium, New York National 7-4
1963 Municipal Stadium, Cleveland National 5-3
1962 Wrigley Field, Chicago American 9-4
1962 D.C. Stadium, Washington National 3-1
1961 Fenway Park, Boston Tie 1-1
1961 Candlestick Park, San Francisco National 5-4
1960 Yankee Stadium, New York National 6-0
1960 Municipal Stadium, Kansas City National 5-3
1959 Memorial Coliseum, Los Angeles American 5-3
1959 Forbes Field, Pittsburgh National 5-4
1958 Memorial Stadium, Baltimore American 4-3
1957 Sportsman's Park, St. Louis American 6-5
1956 Griffith Stadium, Washington National 7-3
1955 County Stadium, Milwaukee National 6-5
1954 Municipal Stadium, Cleveland American 11-9

So I gather you concede that head-to-head in the prime of their careers, Mantle's numbers were better than Mays. Your explanation is that Mays faced tougher pitching. A lot of those guys you are referencing (Drysdale, Koufax, Gibson) really came into their own in the 1960s, so that wouldn't explain why Mantle outperformed Mays in the 1954-1960 time period. Robin Roberts, for his part, had some pretty lean years between 1954-1959.

I don't think you can prove objectively that Mays consistently faced better pitching, but you're entitled to your opinion. Strictly speaking, on an objective basis, Mantle outperformed Mays during the peak of their careers.

[clenz]

you're **** joking about being an after thought right? Look at his numbers, watch the plays he made day in and day out so effortlessly that 99% of baseball players could only dream of making.

One of the purest swings on history.

You can't blame him for the Ms being, for the most part, a second level franchise. That is like the morons who say Marino wasn't any good because he never wins title.

That's another thing. Many of Griffey's injuries resulted from plays in which he did not lie down, but instead was giving the type of effort you'd expect from a guy trying to make the team.

I made the comparison to Mantle because Griffey's numbers during his first 13 years as a Mariner were off-the-charts good. Some others in this era may have amassed more over a period of time, but at his best Griffey was for an extended period of time, the best player in baseball. He is, in my opinion, the best player of his era.

Agreed. Go to Youtube and just watch The Kid's highlights, he wasn't just a hitter. He may be one of the top 3 or 4 defensive outfielders of all time. The injuries early in his career were because of him putting his body at risk to make catches that no other outfielder would have even tried to make.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Heck, prior to Big Mac and Sammy hitting the steroids up Griffey Jr was baseball. From 1989-1998 it was almost impossible to talk baseball and not have Griffey brought up because of a play he had made the day before, the stats he was putting up, etc...

I would even say that Griffey Jr meant more to the Mariner franchise than any player has meant to their franchise in a long long time. Without Griffey Jr baseball in Seattle dies a quick, but very painful death. Without Griffey Jr the Mariners are still in the Kingdome. Safeco is the field that Griffey built. If you don't believe me go back and look at the reaction to the Mariner fans after Griffey went to Cinci. Look at the way the welcomed him back after he came back to finish his career in Seattle. He was right there in terms of marketing ability with MJ during the 90's. Without Griffey Jr the best thing in Seattle was Jay Buhner. Nothing against Jay, Edgar Martinez, Joey Cora, and the rest of the M's during that time frame but with George Kenneth Griffey Junior no one, including those in Seattle, would remember their names.

Yes, Griffey had A-Rod at the very beginning of his career, but A-Rod bolted just as he was starting to his his best baseball. The only REAL help that Griffey had for an extended period in Seattle was Randy Johnson, but he could only help them M's every 5th day.


I went back and looked at the rosters of those M's teams, and there were some good names on them, but those names weren't who they turned out to be until after they left Seattle.

[Gil Dobie]

In the 1950's and 1960's Mays was batting against Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, Robin Roberts and a plethora of pitchers better than the American League. Take a look at all-star game results during their careers. The National League was a better League at the time of Mays and Mantle, but the Yankees were usually the best team. Much of that was due to the National League being more open to integrating their teams. Who were the best pitchers Mantle was hitting against Billy Pierce, Early Wynn, Bob Lemon, Bob Feller, most of which were in the twilight of their careers. The Yankees dominated a weak American League and Mantle was the Leagues best player.

You really can't assess league strength based on the results of an exhibition game, but the AL went 5-9-1 against the NL during the period 1954 through 1964.


1964 Shea Stadium, New York National 7-4
1963 Municipal Stadium, Cleveland National 5-3
1962 Wrigley Field, Chicago American 9-4
1962 D.C. Stadium, Washington National 3-1
1961 Fenway Park, Boston Tie 1-1
1961 Candlestick Park, San Francisco National 5-4
1960 Yankee Stadium, New York National 6-0
1960 Municipal Stadium, Kansas City National 5-3
1959 Memorial Coliseum, Los Angeles American 5-3
1959 Forbes Field, Pittsburgh National 5-4
1958 Memorial Stadium, Baltimore American 4-3
1957 Sportsman's Park, St. Louis American 6-5
1956 Griffith Stadium, Washington National 7-3
1955 County Stadium, Milwaukee National 6-5
1954 Municipal Stadium, Cleveland American 11-9

So I gather you concede that head-to-head in the prime of their careers, Mantle's numbers were better than Mays. Your explanation is that Mays faced tougher pitching. A lot of those guys you are referencing (Drysdale, Koufax, Gibson) really came into their own in the 1960s, so that wouldn't explain why Mantle outperformed Mays in the 1954-1960 time period. Robin Roberts, for his part, had some pretty lean years between 1954-1959.

I don't think you can prove objectively that Mays consistently faced better pitching, but you're entitled to your opinion. Strictly speaking, on an objective basis, Mantle outperformed Mays during the peak of their careers.

No I'm not basing it on an exhibition game that actually meant something from 1951-1968 when both players were active, as the 1964 cut-off date excludes Mays 52 Home Run season. You are saying I am with your Mickey-spin-Mantle logic. Yankees are one of my favorite teams, but given the choice during their prime, I'd take Mays any day of the week, weekends, Feb 29th on leap year, and holidays. Imagine the accolades Mays would have gotten had he been a Yankee. Mays had a very consistant career, you almost could post his stats before the season started. Mantle had an up and down career, 4 seasons with 100 RBI with a high of 130, Willie Mays 10 seasons of 100 RBI with a high of 141. Mantle had 4 seasons of over 40 HR's, 2 of 50+, Mays 6 times over 40, and 2 of 50+.