Jobs Report - Are We Screwed When the Census is Over?

[HI54UNI]

A partisan would've been blind to the fiscal misdeeds when his/her party did them and then lambaste the other party when they did the same. I'm sensing I can put you in that category, eh?

I'm not blind to the fiscal misdeeds of "my" party. I rarely ever defend congressional Democrats. I'm a big Obama supporter... and for some reason everyone on here assumes that makes me a huge Democrat. Not true.

If I didn't know better I'd think you're Barry himself the way you defend his every dumbass move.

[kalm]

Government spending on physical and intellectual infrastructure can provide long term growth in the private sector.

One example of the physical would be Grand Coulee Dam in my neck of the woods which was built in the 1930's. It turned a desert into a highly productive agricultural area with Grant County, Washington being the #1 potato producing county in the country. It has also provided cheap energy to countless manufacturing companies from Boeing to Kaiser Aluminum.

Other Bureau of Reclamation projects on the Columbia and Snake made the rivers navigable making it more affordable for farmers to barge their products to Portland where they would then be shipped around the world.

This economic stimulus continues to this day, some 70 years after most of these dams were built.

An example of the intellectual would be the G.I. bill. Money spent towards education creates a more productive, creative, and entreprenuerial workforce who's higher wages come back to the government over a lifetime in higher taxes.

It's not that Keynesian theory should be used all of the time, but this type of stimulus would be highly unlikely to come from the private sector, especially during an economic crisis.

We are a mixed economy, and the answer is probably in the middle.

[CID1990]

Government spending on physical and intellectual infrastructure can provide long term growth in the private sector.

One example of the physical would be Grand Coulee Dam in my neck of the woods which was built in the 1930's. It turned a desert into a highly productive agricultural area with Grant County, Washington being the #1 potato producing county in the country. It has also provided cheap energy to countless manufacturing companies from Boeing to Kaiser Aluminum.

Other Bureau of Reclamation projects on the Columbia and Snake made the rivers navigable making it more affordable for farmers to barge their products to Portland where they would then be shipped around the world.

This economic stimulus continues to this day, some 70 years after most of these dams were built.

An example of the intellectual would be the G.I. bill. Money spent towards education creates a more productive, creative, and entreprenuerial workforce who's higher wages come back to the government over a lifetime in higher taxes.

It's not that Keynesian theory should be used all of the time, but this type of stimulus would be highly unlikely to come from the private sector, especially during an economic crisis.

We are a mixed economy, and the answer is probably in the middle.

SO which specific, current stimulus programs today are on par with the GI Bill or the Grand Coulee Dam?

I have seen a couple modern 'stimulus' programs up close and they are just bureaucrat welfare, is all.

[AZGrizFan]

I'm not blind to the fiscal misdeeds of "my" party. I rarely ever defend congressional Democrats. I'm a big Obama supporter... and for some reason everyone on here assumes that makes me a huge Democrat. Not true.

If I didn't know better I'd think you're Barry himself the way you defend his every dumbass move.

KY is in some SERIOUS denial.

[AZGrizFan]

Oh, and the simple answer to the question is we were screwed as soon as they announced the election results in November of 2008.

[Skjellyfetti]

If I didn't know better I'd think you're Barry himself the way you defend his every dumbass move.

KY is in some SERIOUS denial.

Huh? I fully admit to being a big Obama homer. I don't deny that.

[OL FU]

And Government spending has not successfully lifted us out of a recession in this or the last two centurys with the exception of spending on world war II. And following WWII a combination of rebuilding the world, not competition and a relaxing of government work programs kept us alive.

You can't really make the argument that defense spending during WWII was stimulative in the sense that it was responsible for growing GDP. A couple of years ago an economist at Harvard by the name of Robert Barro did a study of defense spending from the beginning of 1942 through the end of 1944. He concluded that the spending produced an economic multiplier of about .8. Of course that money had to be spent, as we were fighting a war of national survival. The point is that government spending doesn't produce sustainable GDP growth.

Not going to argue with you because honestly I don't know. What it did was provide full employment Following the war, while tax rates remained high (they did drop some), the feds stopping the growth of the New deal and the lack of competition around the world provided the backdrop for American success. Shoot me (and I know some will, you won't though), the best thing that happened besides winning the war was that FDR didn't survive it. His plan was to increase the New Deal with force.

Also I wonder if the .8 multiplier was better than what we acheived with the public works programs of the 30s.?

[OL FU]

Government spending on physical and intellectual infrastructure can provide long term growth in the private sector.

One example of the physical would be Grand Coulee Dam in my neck of the woods which was built in the 1930's. It turned a desert into a highly productive agricultural area with Grant County, Washington being the #1 potato producing county in the country. It has also provided cheap energy to countless manufacturing companies from Boeing to Kaiser Aluminum.

Other Bureau of Reclamation projects on the Columbia and Snake made the rivers navigable making it more affordable for farmers to barge their products to Portland where they would then be shipped around the world.

This economic stimulus continues to this day, some 70 years after most of these dams were built.

An example of the intellectual would be the G.I. bill. Money spent towards education creates a more productive, creative, and entreprenuerial workforce who's higher wages come back to the government over a lifetime in higher taxes.

It's not that Keynesian theory should be used all of the time, but this type of stimulus would be highly unlikely to come from the private sector, especially during an economic crisis.

We are a mixed economy, and the answer is probably in the middle.

The conversations is not whether there are some good government programs or building projects. There certainly are. The question is does the overall policy of government spending lift the overall economy from the doldrums and so far there has been no proof that it does. And it is even less the case when you have a hodge podge of pent up liberal demand posing as stimulus. For the amount of money we recently spent it would be nice if we ended up with the equivent of an new interstate system or the Hoover Dam.

[89Hen]

Huh? I fully admit to being a big Obama homer. I don't deny that.

How could you?

[CitadelGrad]

Government spending on physical and intellectual infrastructure can provide long term growth in the private sector.

One example of the physical would be Grand Coulee Dam in my neck of the woods which was built in the 1930's. It turned a desert into a highly productive agricultural area with Grant County, Washington being the #1 potato producing county in the country. It has also provided cheap energy to countless manufacturing companies from Boeing to Kaiser Aluminum.

Other Bureau of Reclamation projects on the Columbia and Snake made the rivers navigable making it more affordable for farmers to barge their products to Portland where they would then be shipped around the world.

This economic stimulus continues to this day, some 70 years after most of these dams were built.

An example of the intellectual would be the G.I. bill. Money spent towards education creates a more productive, creative, and entreprenuerial workforce who's higher wages come back to the government over a lifetime in higher taxes.

It's not that Keynesian theory should be used all of the time, but this type of stimulus would be highly unlikely to come from the private sector, especially during an economic crisis.

We are a mixed economy, and the answer is probably in the middle.

The conversations is not whether there are some good government programs or building projects. There certainly are. The question is does the overall policy of government spending lift the overall economy from the doldrums and so far there has been no proof that it does. And it is even less the case when you have a hodge podge of pent up liberal demand posing as stimulus. For the amount of money we recently spent it would be nice if we ended up with the equivent of an new interstate system or the Hoover Dam.

You can't get a new interstate system or the Hoover Dam for only 8% of the stimulus bill's outlays, which was the amount allocated to infrastructure. The bill wasn't about economic stimulus. It was about rewarding constituent groups, expanding government and increasing dependence on the government.

But you already knew that.

[OL FU]

The conversations is not whether there are some good government programs or building projects. There certainly are. The question is does the overall policy of government spending lift the overall economy from the doldrums and so far there has been no proof that it does. And it is even less the case when you have a hodge podge of pent up liberal demand posing as stimulus. For the amount of money we recently spent it would be nice if we ended up with the equivent of an new interstate system or the Hoover Dam.

You can't get a new interstate system or the Hoover Dam for only 8% of the stimulus bill's outlays, which was the amount allocated to infrastructure. The bill wasn't about economic stimulus. It was about rewarding constituent groups, expanding government and increasing dependence on the government.

But you already knew that.

I did I did

and it was about assuming the economy would be making a rebound in 2010, being able to say we did something and then taking credit that doing something helped.

[GannonFan]

You can't get a new interstate system or the Hoover Dam for only 8% of the stimulus bill's outlays, which was the amount allocated to infrastructure. The bill wasn't about economic stimulus. It was about rewarding constituent groups, expanding government and increasing dependence on the government.

But you already knew that.

I did I did

and it was about assuming the economy would be making a rebound in 2010, being able to say we did something and then taking credit that doing something helped.

I agree with all of that. If we had spent money on actual things like the Hoover Dam or an interstate system, you could argue that the long term benefits would be out there so something would be coming back from the spending. But this latest round appeared to be spending for spending sake, with the idea that any spending, on anything, was good and stimulative. It's a bit scary realizing that we are currently getting great year on year profit numbers from most of the private sector since 2009 was so abysmal - what happens next year assuming that things don't take off? Will the poor year on year growth numbers cause even more apprehension and pullback? Could we still double dip at this point?

[OL FU]

I did I did

and it was about assuming the economy would be making a rebound in 2010, being able to say we did something and then taking credit that doing something helped.

I agree with all of that. If we had spent money on actual things like the Hoover Dam or an interstate system, you could argue that the long term benefits would be out there so something would be coming back from the spending. But this latest round appeared to be spending for spending sake, with the idea that any spending, on anything, was good and stimulative. It's a bit scary realizing that we are currently getting great year on year profit numbers from most of the private sector since 2009 was so abysmal - what happens next year assuming that things don't take off? Will the poor year on year growth numbers cause even more apprehension and pullback? Could we still double dip at this point?

It is amazing how often the term shovel ready was toss around when shovel ready wasn't even a major part of the programs

2011 has even more problems. A tax hike in the middle of what still feels like a recession even if technically it isn't one.


PS, it is still my opinion that the dems think this is their card up the sleeve on the mid terms. Can't be too much longer before the democrats propose extending the tax break for those making under a certain income while the republicans oppose it insisting that all the tax breaks should be extended.

[GannonFan]

I agree with all of that. If we had spent money on actual things like the Hoover Dam or an interstate system, you could argue that the long term benefits would be out there so something would be coming back from the spending. But this latest round appeared to be spending for spending sake, with the idea that any spending, on anything, was good and stimulative. It's a bit scary realizing that we are currently getting great year on year profit numbers from most of the private sector since 2009 was so abysmal - what happens next year assuming that things don't take off? Will the poor year on year growth numbers cause even more apprehension and pullback? Could we still double dip at this point?

It is amazing how often the term shovel ready was toss around when shovel ready wasn't even a major part of the programs

2011 has even more problems. A tax hike in the middle of what still feels like a recession even if technically it isn't one.


PS, it is still my opinion that the dems think this is their card up the sleeve on the mid terms. Can't be too much longer before the democrats propose extending the tax break for those making under a certain income while the republicans oppose it insisting that all the tax breaks should be extended.

But that just stems the tide - even extending those breaks now wouldn't help much - longterm, we need job creation and there's way too much uncertainty about prospects in America for that to happen in any earnest. We've spent so much money that rightfully so, people and businesses are just expecting US austerity measures to come along pretty soon. Government spending can't continue like this, but that is precisely what we are doing - doggedly moving ahead with signicant govt outlays while ignoring the peril that such a course is taking us towards.

[OL FU]

It is amazing how often the term shovel ready was toss around when shovel ready wasn't even a major part of the programs

2011 has even more problems. A tax hike in the middle of what still feels like a recession even if technically it isn't one.


PS, it is still my opinion that the dems think this is their card up the sleeve on the mid terms. Can't be too much longer before the democrats propose extending the tax break for those making under a certain income while the republicans oppose it insisting that all the tax breaks should be extended.

But that just stems the tide - even extending those breaks now wouldn't help much - longterm, we need job creation and there's way too much uncertainty about prospects in America for that to happen in any earnest. We've spent so much money that rightfully so, people and businesses are just expecting US austerity measures to come along pretty soon. Government spending can't continue like this, but that is precisely what we are doing - doggedly moving ahead with signicant govt outlays while ignoring the peril that such a course is taking us towards.

My last comment was about political maneuvering for election day.

[kalm]

Government spending on physical and intellectual infrastructure can provide long term growth in the private sector.

One example of the physical would be Grand Coulee Dam in my neck of the woods which was built in the 1930's. It turned a desert into a highly productive agricultural area with Grant County, Washington being the #1 potato producing county in the country. It has also provided cheap energy to countless manufacturing companies from Boeing to Kaiser Aluminum.

Other Bureau of Reclamation projects on the Columbia and Snake made the rivers navigable making it more affordable for farmers to barge their products to Portland where they would then be shipped around the world.

This economic stimulus continues to this day, some 70 years after most of these dams were built.

An example of the intellectual would be the G.I. bill. Money spent towards education creates a more productive, creative, and entreprenuerial workforce who's higher wages come back to the government over a lifetime in higher taxes.

It's not that Keynesian theory should be used all of the time, but this type of stimulus would be highly unlikely to come from the private sector, especially during an economic crisis.

We are a mixed economy, and the answer is probably in the middle.

SO which specific, current stimulus programs today are on par with the GI Bill or the Grand Coulee Dam?

I have seen a couple modern 'stimulus' programs up close and they are just bureaucrat welfare, is all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the GI bill is still around.

But this is certainly an area Obama should be criticized for. Large infrastructure projects that employ people while laying the ground work for private sector success are what we need.

More than anything, I was countering the brush stroke point in the thread that government spending never leads to positive economic stimulus... goddddammm keyensian...free market....blah, blah, blah.