Illegals' Exodus from AZ has begun!!!

[kalm]

A few Catholic bishops, most notably LA Cardinal Mahony, would throw open the borders to everyone...but that is not Catholic teaching...

And where did Jesus advocate disobeying civil law???

Now, Jesus would most likely agree that everyone should be welcomed by first following the civil laws...

And while you're on this "What would the church advocate" kick...are you willing to take up the Church position on abortion....or do you simply pick the topics you like and ignore the rest???

Hogan, nice Joltinian deflection. This aint about me. I aint catholic. I have options.

The question was put to you. I'm surprised at your stance on certain issues - especially those surrounding the poor (immigration, welfare, etc.) According to your Jesus myth, he got his "rebel" ass in a sling for defying the authorities. MOF, your entire religion is based on his crucifixian and bullshit resurrection. Here we go again, the atheist teaching the christians about their religion.

Jesus would not approve of many civil laws Hogan. He was guided by pure principles of compassion for others, period. He would welcome the mexican horde with open arms, so don't give me your bullshit.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

I'm still trying to figure out why all this matters...
If there was no jobs here and no opportunity they'd stop coming right..?

1) Why are there jobs for them..?
2) What are these jobs..?
3) can't most Americans make themselves more valuable than an immigrant if they need to.?

Seriously.. this whole thing is beyond me

I agree with Arizona's right to do whatever they want - I just don't really see the advantage I guess

It all starts with the ILLEGAL part everything after that doesnt matter, because a crime was committed and therefore everything after the fact is in itself illegal. Who cares about jobs anyway?

[AZGrizFan]

A few Catholic bishops, most notably LA Cardinal Mahony, would throw open the borders to everyone...but that is not Catholic teaching...

And where did Jesus advocate disobeying civil law???

Now, Jesus would most likely agree that everyone should be welcomed by first following the civil laws...

And while you're on this "What would the church advocate" kick...are you willing to take up the Church position on abortion....or do you simply pick the topics you like and ignore the rest???

Hogan, nice Joltinian deflection. This aint about me. I aint catholic. I have options.

The question was put to you. I'm surprised at your stance on certain issues - especially those surrounding the poor (immigration, welfare, etc.) According to your Jesus myth, he got his "rebel" ass in a sling for defying the authorities. MOF, your entire religion is based on his crucifixian and bullshit resurrection. Here we go again, the atheist teaching the christians about their religion.

Jesus would not approve of many civil laws Hogan. He was guided by pure principles of compassion for others, period. He would welcome the mexican horde with open arms, so don't give me your bullshit.

And, all the while, while you two attempt to hijack yet another thread with your senseless relious drivel, the exodus continues unabated.

[89Hen]

I'm still trying to figure out why all this matters...
If there was no jobs here and no opportunity they'd stop coming right..?

1) Why are there jobs for them..?
2) What are these jobs..?
3) can't most Americans make themselves more valuable than an immigrant if they need to.?

Seriously.. this whole thing is beyond me

MANY of the jobs are under the table, but the opportunity to get these jobs, along with free education, a safer place to live, etc... It truly is the opportunity that brings many people in.

[native]

I'd like to see them come here and have the opportunities to better themselves and better our country so I hope that they do it in the legal manner.

The concept couldn't be any simpler could it? Knock on the door. Identify yourself. And come on in. There is work and a better life for all.

Exactly!

[native]

They are criminals and should be dealt with appropriately....even if it's simple deportation with no chance to become legal...EVER...

Barely. I'm not a lawyer... and I could be wrong... but, I believe immigrating illegally is a minor misdemeanor.

It's a felony to hire them though... so, who's the criminal?

All concerned parties are criminal and should be harshly treated as such, including idiots who aid and abet illegal immigration.

[BDKJMU]

They are criminals and should be dealt with appropriately....even if it's simple deportation with no chance to become legal...EVER...

Barely. I'm not a lawyer... and I could be wrong... but, I believe immigrating illegally is a minor misdemeanor.

It's a felony to hire them though... so, who's the criminal?

They are:
Entering illegally is a violation of 8 USC 1325:

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/usc ... -000-.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-So if they have entered the US illegally they have committed a crime (vs a visa overstay, which is a civil penalty)
-They are working illegally
-In which case they have often committed identity theft which is a felony (using a stolen or fraudulent fica #, etc)

So its pretty clear here who the criminal is- Those who hire the illegals AND the illegal aliens. I say go after them ALL!

[Skjellyfetti]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

[AZGrizFan]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

I suggest we start by asking them for their papers during ever interaction.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

I laid out a way to get it started a couple of months ago and I really can't remember the deets.

Thing is though, we don't need to round up 20 million we need to get on a handle on what we can at the present time. Sort of the ol' "you eat an elephant one bite at a time" type of thing.

[AZGrizFan]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

I laid out a way to get it started a couple of months ago and I really can't remember the deets.

Thing is though, we don't need to round up 20 million we need to get on a handle on what we can at the present time. Sort of the ol' "you eat an elephant one bite at a time" type of thing.

UUUUURRRRSSSSSUUUUUUSSSSSSSSS......it's just to HAAAAAARRRRRRDDDDDD......

That's what she said.

[AZGrizFan]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

It's not feasible to WILL people out of poverty either, but your party has been trying that and throwing tens of billions of dollars at THAT problem for 50 years.

[native]

Then if they really want to succeed and make a better life for their family...come here legally. The benefits are much more as a legal American citizen.

This is the right answer...... but, our immigration system means it's not a legitimate option for those that are coming here illegally. Do you really think they would walk across the Arizona desert if they could do it legally?

Yes, the system sucks and canbe improved, but between a million and a half million make it in LEGALLY every year.

If the asshat employers did their homework, even more could come in legally. The other result of enforcement would be a return of decent hourly wages to laborers in industries such as meatpacking.

[native]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

Plenty feasible:
Sanctions against employers including criminal penalties
Sanctions against local sanctuary governments including criminal penalties
Increased criminal penalties for all aspects of aiding and abeting illegal immigration
Border enforcement including criminal enalties
Denial of public benefits to illegal aliens
Citizenship tests on an equal footing with means tests
Universal 287g law enforcement program enrollment

[Col Hogan]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

Multi-pronged approach that does not involve rounding up anybody...

1. Come down like a ton of bricks on the employers...when jobs dry up, a bunch will head home...
2. Arizona-like enforcement nation-wide...they will not have the documents, so, to avoid arrest, a bunch of them will head home...
3. There will always be some who think they can avoid 1 & 2...when they get picked up, use the law that is already in effect instead of simply letting them go...

Just three ways to get illegals out...

Then, make legal immigration easier...show those here illegally that if they go home before being caught, there is a chance for them...because anyone caught here illegally should be prevented from using the legal method for a long time...

Won't get everyone...but that 20m number will be reduced substantially...

[Skjellyfetti]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

Plenty feasible:
Sanctions against employers including criminal penalties
Sanctions against local sanctuary governments including criminal penalties
Increased criminal penalties for all aspects of aiding and abeting illegal immigration
Border enforcement including criminal enalties
Denial of public benefits to illegal aliens
Citizenship tests on an equal footing with means tests
Universal 287g law enforcement program enrollment

Not one point on your list addresses what to do with the ~20 million illegal aliens already here which is what my question asked.

[Skjellyfetti]

It's not feasible to round up ~20 million people. At least not in a free society. I'd like to know what strategy you'd suggest to carry that out. Go around to hispanic neighborhoods and start knocking on doors?

Multi-pronged approach that does not involve rounding up anybody...

1. Come down like a ton of bricks on the employers...when jobs dry up, a bunch will head home...
2. Arizona-like enforcement nation-wide...they will not have the documents, so, to avoid arrest, a bunch of them will head home...
3. There will always be some who think they can avoid 1 & 2...when they get picked up, use the law that is already in effect instead of simply letting them go...

Just three ways to get illegals out...

Then, make legal immigration easier...show those here illegally that if they go home before being caught, there is a chance for them...because anyone caught here illegally should be prevented from using the legal method for a long time...

Won't get everyone...but that 20m number will be reduced substantially...

This is a much better answer. But, do you think our law enforcement can handle that? We have ~2.3 million behind bars right now. Resources are already thin and we'd need police rounding up that number every year for the next 10 years to eliminate the problem (#3). Ain't gonna happen.

But, as I was typing this out I came up with a compromise I could get behind. Legalize pot, free up law enforcment resources, reduce the drug traffic across the border, etc. Win win.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Multi-pronged approach that does not involve rounding up anybody...

1. Come down like a ton of bricks on the employers...when jobs dry up, a bunch will head home...
2. Arizona-like enforcement nation-wide...they will not have the documents, so, to avoid arrest, a bunch of them will head home...
3. There will always be some who think they can avoid 1 & 2...when they get picked up, use the law that is already in effect instead of simply letting them go...

Just three ways to get illegals out...

Then, make legal immigration easier...show those here illegally that if they go home before being caught, there is a chance for them...because anyone caught here illegally should be prevented from using the legal method for a long time...

Won't get everyone...but that 20m number will be reduced substantially...

This is a much better answer. But, do you think our law enforcement can handle that? We have ~2.3 million behind bars right now. Resources are already thin and we'd need police rounding up that number every year for the next 10 years to eliminate the problem (#3). Ain't gonna happen.

But, as I was typing this out I came up with a compromise I could get behind. Legalize pot, free up law enforcment resources, reduce the drug traffic across the border, etc. Win win.

Agree with the legalize pot part. Actually agree with all the Col. says as well but the one thing you are overlooking is that there is plenty of enforcement going to waste by just letting people go to come back and eat up more policing resources.

We could also take the Sheriff Joe route to housing criminals.

[Skjellyfetti]

Denial of public benefits to illegal aliens

What public benefits?

Only I'm aware of is emergency medical care and school for their kids.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Denial of public benefits to illegal aliens

What public benefits?

Only I'm aware of is emergency medical care and school for their kids.

Well there's two decent ones and I'm pretty sure that there are a few other public services cons that are not being thought of individually but in the aggregate are fairly large.

Taking the incentives away no matter what form they come in is one of the keys wouldn't you say?

[native]

...Not one point on your list addresses what to do with the ~20 million illegal aliens already here which is what my question asked.

Virtually the same answer as the Colonel's, with more detail, you ignoramus.

The only difference is that I left out the Colonel's point about increasing legal immigration, with which I agree. I would add that we need to improve the process.

[Skjellyfetti]

...Not one point on your list addresses what to do with the ~20 million illegal aliens already here which is what my question asked.

Virtually the same answer as the Colonel's, with more detail, you ignoramus.

The only difference is that I left out the Colonel's point about increasing legal immigration, with which I agree. I would add that we need to improve the process.

And he included rounding them up by enforcing existing law. Maybe you agree with that... I dunno you didn't say so. I'm not convinced law enforcement can handle it... but, at least I know that's what y'all want to see happen.


As for increasing legal immigration. Would you be against lowering the standards so that those without a college degree can come here as well (the type of person that is coming here illegally)? That met with pretty stiff opposition when I proposed it earlier in this thread (might have been a different thread, I don't remember).

[Skjellyfetti]

Well there's two decent ones and I'm pretty sure that there are a few other public services cons that are not being thought of individually but in the aggregate are fairly large.

Just seems like Conks like to say that illegals are eligible for welfare and social security... which isn't true... but, it helps scare up support. I'm curious what benefits he was talking about.

Taking the incentives away no matter what form they come in is one of the keys wouldn't you say?

If you're talking about the incentives as the jobs... then, yeah... I definitely agree with you that it would be key for stopping new illegals from coming... If you're talking about incentives as government benefits... then, I'd disagree because that's not why they're coming.

[native]

Denial of public benefits to illegal aliens

What public benefits?

Only I'm aware of is emergency medical care and school for their kids.

Those two public assistance benefits alone account for about $9 BILLION paid by California taxpayers. Throw in a another billion or more for incarcerating illegal alien criminals. The costs do not include the costs of identity theft and fraud.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/02/local/me-cap2/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrati ... legals.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://morganwrites.wordpress.com/2008/ ... on-a-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[native]

From the previously cited LA Times article:

... Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to welfare, called CalWORKs. But their citizen children are. Roughly 190,000 kids are receiving welfare checks that pass through their parents. The cost: about $500 million, according to the nonpartisan Legislative Analyst's Office.

Schwarzenegger has proposed removing these children from the welfare rolls after five years. It's part of a broader proposal to also boot off, after five years, the children of U.S. citizens who aren't meeting federal work requirements. There'd be a combined savings of $522 million.

The state is spending $775 million on Medi-Cal healthcare for illegal immigrants, according to the legislative analyst. Of that, $642 million goes into direct benefits. Practically all the rest is paid to counties to administer the program. The feds generally match the state dollar-for-dollar on mandatory programs.

So-called emergency services are the biggest state cost: $536 million. Prenatal care is $59 million. Not counted in the overall total is the cost of baby delivery -- $108 million -- because the newborns aren't illegal immigrants. ...