Walk Away?

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Walk Away?

Post by kalm »

Perhaps it's amoral to walk away from an upside down mortgage?

(que Z in 3...2...1) :D

They Keep Stealing - Why Keep Paying?
By Dylan Ratigan

The dire straits of the middle class of America has made it near impossible for our politicians to keep up the pretense that our current government truly works for the "people." Between the multiple overt and secretive bailouts, the massive bonuses and the circular use of our tax money to lobby for these continued handouts, you can no longer hide from the evidence.

When Senator Durbin said "The banks... frankly own this place," you realize it was not in jest.

Couple this with recent protections handed by the Supreme Court to corporations to directly influence elections and it can make things seem hopeless for those not on Wall Street or their chosen politicians. Favored CEOs and now even foreign countries get all the printed money they need, leaving us paying both our bills and theirs.

And now nearly a quarter of all Americans are currently underwater in their mortgage because of that steadfast honor.

If you are one of them, chances are you didn't do anything wrong. Almost all of you were not subprime borrowers or speculators, but merely people buying a house that they thought they could afford at the time. You were just unlucky in that you bought a house during a time when an outdated Wall Street and their complicit politicians decided to use housing to regain the income they lost due to the Schwabs and Etrades of the internet age.

You didn't cause this mess. They did.

Now you are struggling to make the same payments on this mortgage on your now overpriced home even in light of a crashing economy and massive deflation, all while the government does everything in its power to help Wall St. keep the bonuses coming.

Well, it is becoming time to take matters into your own hands... I suggest that you call your lender and tell them if they don't lower you mortgage by at least 20%, you are walking away. And if they don't agree, you need to consider walking away.

It probably doesn't feel right to you.

That is because you probably are a good person. But your mortgage is a business deal, and it is not immoral to walk away from a business deal unless you went in to the deal with the intention of defaulting.

But somehow, even though the corporations are pumped to exercise their new rights, former bankers like Henry Paulson, current ones like Jamie Dimon and -- get this -- now even Fannie Mae execs want to keep you from exercising your rights.

But before you let them (or anyone commenting below) force you into paying that $500k mortgage on a $300k house, ask them if they'll push Jerry Speyer into "honoring his obligation" by breaking into his $2 billion personal piggy-bank to keep paying for Stuyvesant Town?

Or how about asking Hank and Jamie to lecture fellow bailed-out CEO John Mack about how "you're supposed to meet your obligations, not run from them"? Maybe make him use some of his $50+ million for those buildings he bought in San Francisco?

And before shaming and punishing American homeowners, did they nag Steve Feinberg about helping "teach the American people...not to run away" by writing a check out of his billion-dollar pocket to cover all the stiffed landlords and vendors at Mervyn's? After all, at least you aren't single-handedly putting 1,100 employees out of work when you walk on your mortgage.

As part of the deal for your house, your mortgage holder gets interest payments from you and they also use the note to your house for their capital reserves. In return, they take the risk of a foreclosure. In many states, you paid extra to have a non-recourse loan where the lender just gets the house back if you stop paying -- your interest rate would've been much lower if you were held personally liable like a student loan. But if you still feel bad, then donate the money saved to charity instead of to their bonuses. And when someone tries telling you why it is so wrong, here are some answers:

- Yes, it might seem selfish, but you are actually going to help fix our country the right way, through the use of pure capitalism. There are 3 parties involved in your mortgage -- the mortgage holders, the servicing bank and you. You probably want to stay in your house. Most of the people who actually own your mortgage also want you to stay in your house, preferring a mortgage reduction that you keep paying instead of the total loss of a foreclosure. But the major banks (BofA, Wells Fargo, JP Morgan, Citi, etc.) that underwrite and service the loans don't care about either of you. They (with the aid of their government) just care about hiding their true financial condition for long as possible so they can continue to bonus themselves outrageously. The credible threat of you walking away from your mortgage en masse is the only market-based solution that will force these banks to work with the mortgage holders on your behalf.

- No, you will not "hurt" your neighbors -- certainly not near the scale of the banksters. Chances are someone just as nice will you will move in and (unlike you) pay a fair, non-inflated price for the house. Encourage your neighbors to fight back against the banks and ask for their own mortgage reductions as well.

- Yes, it might make getting a loan harder for everyone. Considering the spate 0% down NINJA loans over the past decade, that probably isn't a bad thing.

- Yes, it might hurt your credit. But with time, people bounce back from having foreclosures on their record. Search online and then talk to a lawyer about the repercussions, which vary by state.

- No, the banks won't necessarily pass the losses on to customers. They already make a lot of money. If costs are passed on to every consumer without banks competing on price, that's a sign of illegal collusion or a monopoly. Let's fix that instead of just letting banks ruin our lives. They might, however, not all make $145 billion in bonuses next year doing something fundamentally so easy that it is an unpaid job in Monopoly.

Meanwhile, our captured government has made it clear that they want to further reward these banksters because there are clearly better ways to "save" the economy without rewarding those most responsible for the damage.

Instead of claw backs for the past theft and strong financial reform for the future, they choose to cover-up the gross misuse of our tax money, making our country worse by helping the criminals on the backs of the most honest.

But thankfully, in this country we still have the tools to fight back and regain our country. Our vote, our voice, our laws and what we choose to do with every penny we have that doesn't go to taxes are the benefits of our hard-fought freedom, and in this battle we must use them all to fight back. It's time for the citizens to once again own this place.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by Chizzang »

It's simple... In a purely capitalist system your choices are easy

1) What's best financially for corporation called "YOU" (walk away - or - stay)
2) All other considerations are secondary

That's how capitalism works - you either get that or you don't get that...
but it's no more complicated than that

The concepts of morality or principals or honor have nothing to do with "Capitalist Business 101" it's ONLY about the bottom line - every time... if you are confused about this you are crappy capitalist





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Re: Walk Away?

Post by blueballs »

The only way a person is truly "upside down" on a house is if they are trying to sell it or borrow against it...

...otherwise it is a long term fixed asset subject to market fluctuations like any other asset which in no way alters or excuses a mortgagor from honoring the contract they entered into in good faith with the mortgagee.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by Chizzang »

blueballs wrote:The only way a person is truly "upside down" on a house is if they are trying to sell it or borrow against it...

...otherwise it is a long term fixed asset subject to market fluctuations like any other asset which in no way alters or excuses a mortgagor from honoring the contract they entered into in good faith with the mortgagee.
If each individual were a corporation (and they are)
They should act in accordance with sound business practices...

Just like AIG does or Goldman does
Good faith is code language for "cover me" I made a bad business decision
The Mortgagor and Mortgagee should do whatever makes the most sense for them regardless

That's the way this system works (period)

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Re: Walk Away?

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:Perhaps it's amoral to walk away from an upside down mortgage?

(que Z in 3...2...1) :D

They Keep Stealing - Why Keep Paying?
By Dylan Ratigan

The dire straits of the middle class of America has made it near impossible for our politicians to keep up the pretense that our current government truly works for the "people." Between the multiple overt and secretive bailouts, the massive bonuses and the circular use of our tax money to lobby for these continued handouts, you can no longer hide from the evidence.

When Senator Durbin said "The banks... frankly own this place," you realize it was not in jest.

Couple this with recent protections handed by the Supreme Court to corporations to directly influence elections and it can make things seem hopeless for those not on Wall Street or their chosen politicians. Favored CEOs and now even foreign countries get all the printed money they need, leaving us paying both our bills and theirs.

And now nearly a quarter of all Americans are currently underwater in their mortgage because of that steadfast honor.

If you are one of them, chances are you didn't do anything wrong. Almost all of you were not subprime borrowers or speculators, but merely people buying a house that they thought they could afford at the time. You were just unlucky in that you bought a house during a time when an outdated Wall Street and their complicit politicians decided to use housing to regain the income they lost due to the Schwabs and Etrades of the internet age.

You didn't cause this mess. They did.

Now you are struggling to make the same payments on this mortgage on your now overpriced home even in light of a crashing economy and massive deflation, all while the government does everything in its power to help Wall St. keep the bonuses coming.

Well, it is becoming time to take matters into your own hands... I suggest that you call your lender and tell them if they don't lower you mortgage by at least 20%, you are walking away. And if they don't agree, you need to consider walking away.

It probably doesn't feel right to you.

That is because you probably are a good person. But your mortgage is a business deal, and it is not immoral to walk away from a business deal unless you went in to the deal with the intention of defaulting.

But somehow, even though the corporations are pumped to exercise their new rights, former bankers like Henry Paulson, current ones like Jamie Dimon and -- get this -- now even Fannie Mae execs want to keep you from exercising your rights.

But before you let them (or anyone commenting below) force you into paying that $500k mortgage on a $300k house, ask them if they'll push Jerry Speyer into "honoring his obligation" by breaking into his $2 billion personal piggy-bank to keep paying for Stuyvesant Town?

Or how about asking Hank and Jamie to lecture fellow bailed-out CEO John Mack about how "you're supposed to meet your obligations, not run from them"? Maybe make him use some of his $50+ million for those buildings he bought in San Francisco?

And before shaming and punishing American homeowners, did they nag Steve Feinberg about helping "teach the American people...not to run away" by writing a check out of his billion-dollar pocket to cover all the stiffed landlords and vendors at Mervyn's? After all, at least you aren't single-handedly putting 1,100 employees out of work when you walk on your mortgage.

As part of the deal for your house, your mortgage holder gets interest payments from you and they also use the note to your house for their capital reserves. In return, they take the risk of a foreclosure. In many states, you paid extra to have a non-recourse loan where the lender just gets the house back if you stop paying -- your interest rate would've been much lower if you were held personally liable like a student loan. But if you still feel bad, then donate the money saved to charity instead of to their bonuses. And when someone tries telling you why it is so wrong, here are some answers:

- Yes, it might seem selfish, but you are actually going to help fix our country the right way, through the use of pure capitalism. There are 3 parties involved in your mortgage -- the mortgage holders, the servicing bank and you. You probably want to stay in your house. Most of the people who actually own your mortgage also want you to stay in your house, preferring a mortgage reduction that you keep paying instead of the total loss of a foreclosure. But the major banks (BofA, Wells Fargo, JP Morgan, Citi, etc.) that underwrite and service the loans don't care about either of you. They (with the aid of their government) just care about hiding their true financial condition for long as possible so they can continue to bonus themselves outrageously. The credible threat of you walking away from your mortgage en masse is the only market-based solution that will force these banks to work with the mortgage holders on your behalf.

- No, you will not "hurt" your neighbors -- certainly not near the scale of the banksters. Chances are someone just as nice will you will move in and (unlike you) pay a fair, non-inflated price for the house. Encourage your neighbors to fight back against the banks and ask for their own mortgage reductions as well.

- Yes, it might make getting a loan harder for everyone. Considering the spate 0% down NINJA loans over the past decade, that probably isn't a bad thing.

- Yes, it might hurt your credit. But with time, people bounce back from having foreclosures on their record. Search online and then talk to a lawyer about the repercussions, which vary by state.

- No, the banks won't necessarily pass the losses on to customers. They already make a lot of money. If costs are passed on to every consumer without banks competing on price, that's a sign of illegal collusion or a monopoly. Let's fix that instead of just letting banks ruin our lives. They might, however, not all make $145 billion in bonuses next year doing something fundamentally so easy that it is an unpaid job in Monopoly.

Meanwhile, our captured government has made it clear that they want to further reward these banksters because there are clearly better ways to "save" the economy without rewarding those most responsible for the damage.

Instead of claw backs for the past theft and strong financial reform for the future, they choose to cover-up the gross misuse of our tax money, making our country worse by helping the criminals on the backs of the most honest.

But thankfully, in this country we still have the tools to fight back and regain our country. Our vote, our voice, our laws and what we choose to do with every penny we have that doesn't go to taxes are the benefits of our hard-fought freedom, and in this battle we must use them all to fight back. It's time for the citizens to once again own this place.
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Yeah, cue Z. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This guy is fucking dangerous. Period. You do the math, Kalm: If every mortgage holder in America called their "bank" (and I use that term loosely, because hundreds of billions of dollars in mortgages are held by credit unions and savings and loans and community banks who are in no way, shape or form affiliated with the evil that is B of A, Chase, Wells Fargo, etc) and demanded a "20% reduction in their mortgage", where do you (or this moronic author) think that money goes? Those losses don't just vanish into thin air. If he truly thinks those losses aren't passed on to the consumer he's fucking living in la-la land. Here's a very real life example: Bank A is a $500 million bank, and has $400 million in loans, $200 million of which is mortgages. Typically that bank would have about $30-$40 million in capital (reserves). If they are forced to write off 20% of that $200 million, this bank is GONE. Kaput. Now, multiply THAT scenario by about 5,000 because that's about how many banks and credit unions would be obliterated if people take this fuckstick's advice. And those financial insitutions WON'T be bailed out by our benevolent government because they are NOT too big to fail.

If you lost your job and can't pay your mortgage, fine. Walk away with your head held high. But if you CAN pay but just CHOOSE not to because it (the house) isn't turning out to be the ATM you thought it would then shame on you and I hope you burn in hell....because while you may not "singlehandedly be putting 1100 people out of work", you ARE contributing to a growing problem and mindset that threatens to take down our entire system.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote: Yeah, cue Z. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This guy is fucking dangerous. Period. You do the math, Kalm: If every mortgage holder in America called their "bank" (and I use that term loosely, because hundreds of billions of dollars in mortgages are held by credit unions and savings and loans and community banks who are in no way, shape or form affiliated with the evil that is B of A, Chase, Wells Fargo, etc) and demanded a "20% reduction in their mortgage", where do you (or this moronic author) think that money goes? Those losses don't just vanish into thin air. If he truly thinks those losses aren't passed on to the consumer he's fucking living in la-la land. Here's a very real life example: Bank A is a $500 million bank, and has $400 million in loans, $200 million of which is mortgages. Typically that bank would have about $30-$40 million in capital (reserves). If they are forced to write off 20% of that $200 million, this bank is GONE. Kaput. Now, multiply THAT scenario by about 5,000 because that's about how many banks and credit unions would be obliterated if people take this fuckstick's advice. And those financial insitutions WON'T be bailed out by our benevolent government because they are NOT too big to fail.

If you lost your job and can't pay your mortgage, fine. Walk away with your head held high. But if you CAN pay but just CHOOSE not to because it (the house) isn't turning out to be the ATM you thought it would then shame on you and I hope you burn in hell....because while you may not "singlehandedly be putting 1100 people out of work", you ARE contributing to a growing problem and mindset that threatens to take down our entire system.

AZ,
Eventually isn't there only going to be 3 or 4 banks anyway..?
So what if we expedite that process by a decade

Wal-Mart / Best Buy / Costco
McDonalds / Subway / Pizza Hut
Coco-Cola / Pepsi
Bank of America / Citigroup / JP Morgan Chase

Let it go buddy, don't fight it... it's destiny


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Re: Walk Away?

Post by blueballs »

Chizzang wrote: Good faith is code language for "cover me" I made a bad business decision

:nod:
To me good faith means without coercion but I see your point.

Regardless, if somebody strategically defaults they choose to pay the piper which is damaged credit and the very real possiblity of a default judgment and perhaps a 1099 for the banks losses.

FNMA is pushing to have the window for qualifying for a new mortgage after a strategic default pushed out to seven years... I don't know if it will come to fruition but it is under consideration.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by blueballs »

Upon further review the main thing the article didn't address is the millions of people who bought when the market was in balance, had affordable mortgages, but chose to cash out the equity when values were inflated by either refinancing or taking out second mortgages/equity lines and are now walking away because the value is tanked.

You'd be amazed at the number distressed properties out there where this is exacty the case. In this case the mortgagor is stealing from the lender, there's no other way to put it, and should be subject to either a default judgment (which would need to paid and a satisfaction issued and recorded in order to purchase another home) or 1099's issued by the mortgagee and enforced by the IRS.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by Chizzang »

blueballs wrote:Upon further review the main thing the article didn't address is the millions of people who bought when the market was in balance, had affordable mortgages, but chose to cash out the equity when values were inflated by either refinancing or taking out second mortgages/equity lines and are now walking away because the value is tanked.

You'd be amazed at the number distressed properties out there where this is exacty the case. In this case the mortgagor is stealing from the lender, there's no other way to put it, and should be subject to either a default judgment (which would need to paid and a satisfaction issued and recorded in order to purchase another home) or 1099's issued by the mortgagee and enforced by the IRS.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by mainejeff »

Chizzang wrote:It's simple... In a purely capitalist system your choices are easy

1) What's best financially for corporation called "YOU" (walk away - or - stay)
2) All other considerations are secondary

That's how capitalism works - you either get that or you don't get that...
but it's no more complicated than that

The concepts of morality or principals or honor have nothing to do with "Capitalist Business 101" it's ONLY about the bottom line - every time... if you are confused about this you are crappy capitalist





:coffee:
Agreed!

I take my cues from Corporate America and their CEOs.........take everything you can get while you can and f everyone else. :thumb:

:coffee:
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by death dealer »

mainejeff wrote:
Chizzang wrote:It's simple... In a purely capitalist system your choices are easy

1) What's best financially for corporation called "YOU" (walk away - or - stay)
2) All other considerations are secondary

That's how capitalism works - you either get that or you don't get that...
but it's no more complicated than that

The concepts of morality or principals or honor have nothing to do with "Capitalist Business 101" it's ONLY about the bottom line - every time... if you are confused about this you are crappy capitalist





:coffee:
Agreed!

I take my cues from Corporate America and their CEOs.........take everything you can get while you can and f everyone else. :thumb:

:coffee:
So, you're a fucking douche just like them. :ohno: But, we already know this, don't we? :nod:
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by AZGrizFan »

And you fucking libtard douches wonder why I'm 100% correct when I say this country is fucked.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote:And you fucking libtard douches wonder why I'm 100% correct when I say this country is fucked.

Please explain anything I've said that isn't "old news" and "standard operating procedure"
I'm all ears...



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Re: Walk Away?

Post by dbackjon »

What about the people like my buddy Rich - bought his house in 2004. Is currently upside down, but making payments with no problems. Needs to refinance to get ex-wife's name off of loan. Bank of America refuses to refinance, because he is upside down. He will have no choice but to walk away from the loan, even though he is willing and able to keep paying the mortgage for the full amount owed.
:thumb:
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by Chizzang »

dbackjon wrote:What about the people like my buddy Rich - bought his house in 2004. Is currently upside down, but making payments with no problems. Needs to refinance to get ex-wife's name off of loan. Bank of America refuses to refinance, because he is upside down. He will have no choice but to walk away from the loan, even though he is willing and able to keep paying the mortgage for the full amount owed.
Here I'll explain how this works...

Business 101
Only citizens are accountable for their actions, not corporations
Corporations are only accountable to the bottom line

All other data regarding this argument is superfluous...period



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Re: Walk Away?

Post by mainejeff »

death dealer wrote:
mainejeff wrote:
Agreed!

I take my cues from Corporate America and their CEOs.........take everything you can get while you can and f everyone else. :thumb:

:coffee:
So, you're a **** douche just like them. :ohno: But, we already know this, don't we? :nod:
Sure......yeah......whatever....... :roll:

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Re: Walk Away?

Post by mainejeff »

dbackjon wrote:What about the people like my buddy Rich - bought his house in 2004. Is currently upside down, but making payments with no problems. Needs to refinance to get ex-wife's name off of loan. Bank of America refuses to refinance, because he is upside down. He will have no choice but to walk away from the loan, even though he is willing and able to keep paying the mortgage for the full amount owed.
B of A only sees the bottom line. Your friend needs to look at his bottom line too and do what is best for HIM.

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Re: Walk Away?

Post by CID1990 »

I think there's a lot of blame to go around, and obviously the large underwriters are motivated by the bottom line.

I agreed with some of the points in the article, but one comment really stuck out, and then when I saw it I scrolled to the bottom for the source and was unsurprised to see that the article came from HuffPo (which would be like quoting National Review to make a conservative point).

The comment was where the author mentioned that dropping into these mortgages was no fault of the buyers because they 'thought' they could afford the homes.

I call BS on this. Anyone who bought into an interest only mortgage or one of those adjustable rate mortgages was a total fool. Period. I was buying a condominium in Charleston back ion 2005 and literally laughed at the agent when I was offered everything EXCEPT a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. I told her that I wasn't interested in any mortgage mathematics that required an expert to understand. Give me the 30 year fixed and let's just move on. In the long run if I had nothing else at least I would always be able to count on my payment being the same, and that is the easiest way to avoid getting into trouble.

If you need creative financing to afford a house, then you cannot afford the house. If you lower payments on one end, then you are going to have to make them up somewhere else. In fact, that is what made the adjustable rate mortgages possible in the first place... the lenders were COUNTING on the rates moving up. If you could only afford the payments by using an adjustable rate note, then you were bound to be upside down after a few years.

Obviously the adjustable rate notes are not the only problem here, but show me how many buyers are in trouble with their 30 year fixed notes. Yes, their houses might have devalued, but then houses have been way overpriced for 35 years anyway. If they have the fixed rate mortgage, then I guarantee they are still making the payments. (Unless they are taking advantage of their newfound 'victimhood')

I'm no economic expert, but this is not advanced accounting. It is common sense.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by travelinman67 »

AZGrizFan wrote: This guy is fucking dangerous. Period. You do the math, Kalm: If every mortgage holder in America called their "bank" (and I use that term loosely, because hundreds of billions of dollars in mortgages are held by credit unions and savings and loans and community banks who are in no way, shape or form affiliated with the evil that is B of A, Chase, Wells Fargo, etc) and demanded a "20% reduction in their mortgage", where do you (or this moronic author) think that money goes? Those losses don't just vanish into thin air. If he truly thinks those losses aren't passed on to the consumer he's fucking living in la-la land. Here's a very real life example: Bank A is a $500 million bank, and has $400 million in loans, $200 million of which is mortgages. Typically that bank would have about $30-$40 million in capital (reserves). If they are forced to write off 20% of that $200 million, this bank is GONE. Kaput. Now, multiply THAT scenario by about 5,000 because that's about how many banks and credit unions would be obliterated if people take this fuckstick's advice. And those financial insitutions WON'T be bailed out by our benevolent government because they are NOT too big to fail.

If you lost your job and can't pay your mortgage, fine. Walk away with your head held high. But if you CAN pay but just CHOOSE not to because it (the house) isn't turning out to be the ATM you thought it would then shame on you and I hope you burn in hell....because while you may not "singlehandedly be putting 1100 people out of work", you ARE contributing to a growing problem and mindset that threatens to take down our entire system.
In any other scenario, I would be in agreement...

...the mortgagor receives the benefit of market value equity...

...and accepts the risk of market value decline.

Yet, in this current recession, it could be argued the market collapse was precipitated solely by banking mismanagement...

...so, using your argument that the banks should not bear the burden of debt from strategic foreclosure...

...isn't it also true the mortgagor shouldn't have to bear the burden of debt from bank-induced market collapse?

:coffee:
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by AZGrizFan »

travelinman67 wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote: This guy is fucking dangerous. Period. You do the math, Kalm: If every mortgage holder in America called their "bank" (and I use that term loosely, because hundreds of billions of dollars in mortgages are held by credit unions and savings and loans and community banks who are in no way, shape or form affiliated with the evil that is B of A, Chase, Wells Fargo, etc) and demanded a "20% reduction in their mortgage", where do you (or this moronic author) think that money goes? Those losses don't just vanish into thin air. If he truly thinks those losses aren't passed on to the consumer he's fucking living in la-la land. Here's a very real life example: Bank A is a $500 million bank, and has $400 million in loans, $200 million of which is mortgages. Typically that bank would have about $30-$40 million in capital (reserves). If they are forced to write off 20% of that $200 million, this bank is GONE. Kaput. Now, multiply THAT scenario by about 5,000 because that's about how many banks and credit unions would be obliterated if people take this fuckstick's advice. And those financial insitutions WON'T be bailed out by our benevolent government because they are NOT too big to fail.

If you lost your job and can't pay your mortgage, fine. Walk away with your head held high. But if you CAN pay but just CHOOSE not to because it (the house) isn't turning out to be the ATM you thought it would then shame on you and I hope you burn in hell....because while you may not "singlehandedly be putting 1100 people out of work", you ARE contributing to a growing problem and mindset that threatens to take down our entire system.
In any other scenario, I would be in agreement...

...the mortgagor receives the benefit of market value equity...

...and accepts the risk of market value decline.

Yet, in this current recession, it could be argued the market collapse was precipitated solely by banking mismanagement...

...so, using your argument that the banks should not bear the burden of debt from strategic foreclosure...

...isn't it also true the mortgagor shouldn't have to bear the burden of debt from bank-induced market collapse?

:coffee:
You're not listening. In your blind hatred of "banks", you're lumping all "banks" into one group. I'm telling you there are 5,000-6,000 banks, credit unions and S&L's that had NOTHING to do with this "bank induced market collapse" and for the most part didn't offer the slick, funky screwy deals that were out there to be had but are going to end up being collateral damage. Because when idiotic Americans read something like this article, they don't (much like you aren't) differentiate between the behemoth mortgage producers and the little guy on the corner that they have THEIR mortgage with....so when THEY walk away en-masse, it's not B of A, Wells Fargo and Chase you're hurting because THOSE guys are going to get bailed out again and again and again. But don't let facts get in the way of your blind hatred of "banks".
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:And you fucking libtard douches wonder why I'm 100% correct when I say this country is fucked.

Please explain anything I've said that isn't "old news" and "standard operating procedure"
I'm all ears...



:coffee:
Why? Are you a fucking libtard douche? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by AZGrizFan »

dbackjon wrote:What about the people like my buddy Rich - bought his house in 2004. Is currently upside down, but making payments with no problems. Needs to refinance to get ex-wife's name off of loan. Bank of America refuses to refinance, because he is upside down. He will have no choice but to walk away from the loan, even though he is willing and able to keep paying the mortgage for the full amount owed.
Well, I can say with a fair amount of confidence that if he'd originally gotten that loan through a credit union he'd have much less hassle when trying to refi simply to remove a name from the deed.

Perhaps he should attempt to get the ex to quit-claim the house to him.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by dbackjon »

AZGrizFan wrote:
dbackjon wrote:What about the people like my buddy Rich - bought his house in 2004. Is currently upside down, but making payments with no problems. Needs to refinance to get ex-wife's name off of loan. Bank of America refuses to refinance, because he is upside down. He will have no choice but to walk away from the loan, even though he is willing and able to keep paying the mortgage for the full amount owed.
Well, I can say with a fair amount of confidence that if he'd originally gotten that loan through a credit union he'd have much less hassle when trying to refi simply to remove a name from the deed.

Perhaps he should attempt to get the ex to quit-claim the house to him.

I will suggest that to him
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by OL FU »

I am going with Chizzang but still waiting to see what cleets2 says :nod:

I generally agree the moral issue is irrelevant. I don't know why we would attach morality to individual actions but not business actions. One of the reasons every commercial real estate owner I know fights hard for non-recourse loans. Not that they always get, but they sure try.

Certainly the individual should take into consideration every angle, credit score, forgiveness of debt income (as blueballs mentioned) etc. but in the end you need to do the analysis and decide what works just like a business.
Last edited by OL FU on Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Walk Away?

Post by kalm »

For those questioning the source or Dylan Ratigan's credentials in reporting on financials and the economy:
Early life
Ratigan was born in the village of Saranac Lake in upstate New York. He earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in political economics from Union College in Schenectady, where he was a member of the crew team.[citation needed]

[edit] Journalism career
Ratigan worked at Bloomberg Television as a business correspondent and at the Bloomberg News Service as Global Managing Editor for Corporate Finance,[2] and before that had covered IPOs. At Bloomberg, he co-created and hosted Morning Call for Bloomberg's cable network and the USA Network.[3] He has served as a contributor to ABC News and his articles have appeared in The New York Times, Washington Post, Miami Herald and Chicago Tribune.[3]

Ratigan was the first anchor of CNBC's On the Money. Also on CNBC, he anchored the TV program Bullseye for about a year and a half. In addition to his former duties on Closing Bell and Fast Money, Ratigan was a rotating co-anchor on the 11 A.M.—noon hour of The Call.

Ratigan also co-anchored Closing Bell, and hosted the nightly program Fast Money.[2] Ratigan co-created Fast Money with Susan Krakower[3] and launched the show as its host on June 21, 2006.

Ratigan left CNBC on March 27, 2009 when his contract ended. The New York Times reported he was considering all options but quoted him as saying he was dedicated to covering the economy, “the story that is affecting every American in every setting.”[4]

Morning Meeting launched June 29, 2009.[5] Ratigan also contributes to other NBC News programs. Ratigan described the show's imperative as "to discuss any and all political issues with no directive other than to provide compelling content."[6] The show was the second ever on the network to air in HD, as the network launched their programming in that format.[7]

MSNBC announced in December 2009 that, beginning in January 2010, Ratigan would no longer host Morning Meeting and would instead host a new program, The Dylan Ratigan Show which debuted on January 11 and airs weekday afternoons.[1]

On May 27th, 2010, Ratigan appeared as a guest host on the daily internet news and opinion show, The Young Turks. Cenk Uygur, regular host of The Young Turks is a regular guest on The Dylan Ratigan show.

[edit] Reportage
Ratigan reported on NASCAR for the program NASCAR Gold and about Las Vegas for Las Vegas, Inc on CNBC on Assignment.

Ratigan won the Gerald Loeb Award for 2004 coverage of the Enron scandal.[3]

In Ratigan's final CNBC broadcast from the floor of the NYSE he reported on what he called "an important story developing" that Goldman Sachs and "a variety of European banks", in his assessment and that of his guests, essentially "perpetrated securities fraud" and an "insurance fraud scam" against AIG — and, by extension, the government and taxpayers funding that insurance company's "bailout" — by insuring their questionable investment vehicles and, upon their devaluation, making claims on them to be paid by AIG "at 100 cents on the dollar" despite all of the markdowns "being forced upon every other" entity including the government, banks, shareholders, bond holders, taxpayers and homeowners.[8]

"I think that it should be a bigger political issue than whether somebody bought an airplane... Forget the private jets, forget who got a million dollar bonus. Fifty billion dollars", he said, minimizing what he saw as populist side issues to "the real question" of how "government policy makers" are to deal with the "problems of contract law" inherent in the agreements of businesses receiving government assistance during the financial crisis.[8]

"The banks are being asked to take 'haircuts' on their toxic assets, why are the Goldmans and the Deutsche Banks of the world not being asked to take haircuts on their toxic credit default swaps? It's a real question. I will continue to pursue it for sure, I hope others will as well." Ratigan praised New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo's subpoena of AIG to determine the bank payouts as "legitimate inquiry" and looked forward to "a body of lawmakers in Washington D.C. who are going to ask, it appears, some of the same questions that I'm asking." [8
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