Angle:No Abortions For Rape/Incest Victims...God Has A Plan

[CID1990]

I have a problem with abortion as elective surgery.

Surgery to save the life or preserve the good health of the patient is not elective. Incest/rape would be a mental health issue for the patient, so I'll rank that in there, as well.

Everything else is elective.

[Appaholic]

I have a problem with abortion as elective surgery.

Surgery to save the life or preserve the good health of the patient is not elective. Incest/rape would be a mental health issue for the patient, so I'll rank that in there, as well.

Everything else is elective.

[ATrain]

Ok, on the issue of innocent lives and the Iraqi war, how many innocent people did Saddam Hussein kill? When evil dictators are involved, innocent lives are going to be lost whether a more powerful country does or does not intervene. The only difference is instead of the you, your neighbor on your left or your neighbor on your right being killed by the secret one of you may be killed by an errant bomb or a stray bullet after getting caught in the crossfire. One is blatant murder, the other is more wrong place/wrong time than anything else.

[Chizzang]

Ok, on the issue of innocent lives and the Iraqi war, how many innocent people did Saddam Hussein kill? When evil dictators are involved, innocent lives are going to be lost whether a more powerful country does or does not intervene. The only difference is instead of the you, your neighbor on your left or your neighbor on your right being killed by the secret one of you may be killed by an errant bomb or a stray bullet after getting caught in the crossfire. One is blatant murder, the other is more wrong place/wrong time than anything else.

So are you familiar with all of the South American puppets we've installed over the past 100 years and how many they've killed... It's what we do - it's what Industrialized National Powers do globally... but that's not the point

You're completely missing my point - completely 100% missing it...

Secondly I really don't actually care - I was simply making a point

3rd and frankly elemental to my point was that Pro-lifers don't understand that point, That's actually Key to my argument, so thank you for that as well...

[89Hen]

Wow. Even though I often disagree with you, you're usually on point. This stat is silly. In my church, where 95% of people are probably pro-life, it's a pretty even split between Dems and Reps and those that oppose and support the war.

I believe that now, but I wonder what that split was circa 2002-2003?

Same. Catholics have always been split. You remember JFK, don't you?

[89Hen]

Agree. I don't dispute it's "life" at conception either, but I'm honest enough to acknowledge that it's value is less to me than other lifeforms ie; I'm no more disturbed by the extinguishing of that lifeform than other people are of dogs being euthanized at the shelter. Because, even though it's life, it's no more a person than any other lifeform flying around in my backyard on a summer night. Therefore, there is no emotional attachment.

You don't think a baby a 8.9 months is "no more a person than any other lifeform flying around in my backyard on a summer night"?

[Appaholic]

Agree. I don't dispute it's "life" at conception either, but I'm honest enough to acknowledge that it's value is less to me than other lifeforms ie; I'm no more disturbed by the extinguishing of that lifeform than other people are of dogs being euthanized at the shelter. Because, even though it's life, it's no more a person than any other lifeform flying around in my backyard on a summer night. Therefore, there is no emotional attachment.

You don't think a baby a 8.9 months is "no more a person than any other lifeform flying around in my backyard on a summer night"?

With regards to the requisite rights & protections afforded to them by law, basically, a baby at 8.9 months is a person if born at 8mos, 29 days IMO.

[89Hen]

You don't think a baby a 8.9 months is "no more a person than any other lifeform flying around in my backyard on a summer night"?

With regards to the requisite rights & protections afforded to them by law, basically, a baby at 8.9 months is a person if born at 8mos, 29 days IMO.

dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge

[Appaholic]

With regards to the requisite rights & protections afforded to them by law, basically, a baby at 8.9 months is a person if born at 8mos, 29 days IMO.

dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge

Whatever '89. It's my opinion. I'm not "dodging or ducking". In fact, I'm being a heluva lot more honest & consistent about this than most posters. I'm completely comfortable saying that, although a fetus is pretty much a person, it's afforded no protections until it's born. Period. It's why I don't have a problem with legal abortion & do have a problem with charging a someone with double-manslaughter if they happen to cause the death of a pregnant woman. I'm sorry if I don't worship an unborn life, at the expense of all else, in the same manner as yourself.

[89Hen]

dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge

Whatever '89. It's my opinion. I'm not "dodging or ducking". In fact, I'm being a heluva lot more honest & consistent about this than most posters. I'm completely comfortable saying that, although a fetus is pretty much a person, it's afforded no protections until it's born. Period. It's why I don't have a problem with legal abortion & do have a problem with charging a someone with double-manslaughter if they happen to cause the death of a pregnant woman. I'm sorry if I don't worship an unborn life, at the expense of all else, in the same manner as yourself.

IMO you're hiding behind the law. When I ask if you think it's murder, I'm really asking do you think it's wrong, not whether it's legal. I just don't see how somebody can think that a baby being removed from the mother is the act that makes it a person.

[Appaholic]

Whatever '89. It's my opinion. I'm not "dodging or ducking". In fact, I'm being a heluva lot more honest & consistent about this than most posters. I'm completely comfortable saying that, although a fetus is pretty much a person, it's afforded no protections until it's born. Period. It's why I don't have a problem with legal abortion & do have a problem with charging a someone with double-manslaughter if they happen to cause the death of a pregnant woman. I'm sorry if I don't worship an unborn life, at the expense of all else, in the same manner as yourself.

IMO you're hiding behind the law. When I ask if you think it's murder, I'm really asking do you think it's wrong, not whether it's legal. I just don't see how somebody can think that a baby being removed from the mother is the act that makes it a person.

I'm not "hiding" behind the law as one of my examples (pregnant woman) is inconsistent with my beliefs. Like I stated, I'm comfortable not considering a fetus / baby a person until they are born This is regardless of law (although law supports my belief now, but didn't prior to 1973). The difference is I can understand your view, I just don't support it. What I don't understand is this....it's been my experience over the years that those who seem to support the pro-life agenda the strongest, typically are some of the biggest obstructionists to any social welfare to minimally improve the quality of life for children already on this planet. Maybe their arguments would sway me a little more if I saw them applying this same effort to improving the lives of the children we already have...empty the orphanges, no hungry children, etc....until that day comes, I'm comfortable supporting any measure that affords a woman the opportunity legally to not add to the misery inherent in this life. In other words, I've only got so much "give a damn" in me & I'd rather reserve it for use for life already born & living amongst us. Fair enough?

[89Hen]

I'm comfortable not considering a fetus / baby a person until they are born This is regardless of law

I can see the IRS saying you can't claim a dependent until the day of birth, but from purely a human standpiont, what happens on the day of birth that changes the baby to make it a person?

[89Hen]

What I don't understand is this....it's been my experience over the years that those who seem to support the pro-life agenda the strongest, typically are some of the biggest obstructionists to any social welfare to minimally improve the quality of life for children already on this planet. Maybe their arguments would sway me a little more if I saw them applying this same effort to improving the lives of the children we already have...empty the orphanges, no hungry children, etc....until that day comes, I'm comfortable supporting any measure that affords a woman the opportunity legally to not add to the misery inherent in this life. In other words, I've only got so much "give a damn" in me & I'd rather reserve it for use for life already born & living amongst us. Fair enough?

BTW, the rest of your post is meaningless, similar to all the stuff that Chizz kept trying to creep into the discussion.

[Appaholic]

I'm comfortable not considering a fetus / baby a person until they are born This is regardless of law

I can see the IRS saying you can't claim a dependent until the day of birth, but from purely a human standpiont, what happens on the day of birth that changes the baby to make it a person?

It's removed from the womb? It breathes air? It communicates?

[Appaholic]

What I don't understand is this....it's been my experience over the years that those who seem to support the pro-life agenda the strongest, typically are some of the biggest obstructionists to any social welfare to minimally improve the quality of life for children already on this planet. Maybe their arguments would sway me a little more if I saw them applying this same effort to improving the lives of the children we already have...empty the orphanges, no hungry children, etc....until that day comes, I'm comfortable supporting any measure that affords a woman the opportunity legally to not add to the misery inherent in this life. In other words, I've only got so much "give a damn" in me & I'd rather reserve it for use for life already born & living amongst us. Fair enough?

BTW, the rest of your post is meaningless, similar to all the stuff that Chizz kept trying to creep into the discussion.

Fok off '89. As far as a debate, your view is meaningless. It's supported with nothing more than emotion. Come back with facts or go back to the kiddie pool....

[89Hen]

It's removed from the womb? It breathes air? It communicates?

So somebody on a respirator is not a person and the fact that my dog communicates...

[89Hen]

Fok off '89. As far as a debate, your view is meaningless. It's supported with nothing more than emotion. Come back with facts or go back to the kiddie pool....

No need to get testy. My stating that the rest of your post was meaningless was intended to say there's no reason to bring other factors into this discussion. Quality of life, no hungry children, innocents killed in war, capital punishment, etc... have nothing to do with the abortion debate.

IMO, not protecting a child at 8.9 months simply because it hasn't been removed from it's mother or because there are too many hungry children already in the world are barbaric reasons.

[YoUDeeMan]

Saweeeeeeeeet. Another abortion thread. I predict no one wins but everyone claims victory.

This guy is the smartest guy in the room.

[89Hen]

Saweeeeeeeeet. Another abortion thread. I predict no one wins but everyone claims victory.

This guy is the smartest guy in the room.

I'm always up for this debate. I don't think I'll ever change anyone's opinion, but I'm always happy to try.