Education Debacle of the Decade

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Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Got this off CAAzone's political board-
http://dailycaller.com/2010/07/06/the-e ... cade/print:
The Department of Education commissioned Wolf to conduct a series of detailed studies on the results of the Washington DC Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP). Established in 2004 as a five-year pilot program, OSP is among the most heavily researched federal education programs in history.

OSP targeted about 2,000 of the poorest kids in DC who were stuck in some of the worst schools in the country. It gave their parents a $7,500 scholarship to attend a private school of their choice.

The response was immediate. Four applications were filled out for every slot available. Parents loved the program, considering it a lifeline for their children, a way to escape failing schools and enter safe, functional schools...

...Simply put, OSP has a profoundly positive effect not just on students, but on the city and the country as a whole.

So when it came time for Congress to reauthorize OSP, it would seem to be a no-brainer: Expand the program.

Instead, they killed it...

...And so OSP will end. Thankfully, the students currently enrolled will be able to continue through to graduation. But with no new students allowed in the program, it will die through attrition.

I’ve had the pleasure of working with the OSP parents and kids for the last four years. And I’ve come to know many of them personally, and experience firsthand their reaction to the heartbreaking news.

Latasha Bennett’s son, for example, attends an excellent school on a scholarship and he’s doing great. Her daughter was going to attend kindergarten at the same school, thanks to OSP. And then Latasha got the letter from Arne Duncan stating that her daughter was being forced to leave the program. Her son was safe, but her daughter was one of the 216. Latasha cannot afford the school’s tuition and the charter schools were all filled up by the time Duncan’s rejection letter showed up. So her daughter had no option but to attend the local public school, which has two-thirds of its students failing to meet basic benchmarks in math and reading.

In fact, 90 percent of the 216 kids shut out of OSP were reassigned to failing public schools...
Such a sad sad story about the future of our education system thanks to politics. Not only would did the study find we'd save potentially hundreds of thousands with the program, but it'd also provide a better life for the students which should in turn provide an economic boost to our country.

And so of course they kill it. :ohno:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by CitadelGrad »

Why is there a Department of Education?
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by ∞∞∞ »

CitadelGrad wrote:Why is there a Department of Education?
I assume it partly has something to do with this part of the story:
As it turns out, the teachers unions are the single largest contributor to federally elected politicians, with the vast majority of their funds going to Democrats. The teachers unions don’t like programs like OSP because when parents have the freedom to choose, they may choose schools that don’t have unionized teachers.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Baldy »

Thank you, President Obama. :ohno:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by blueballs »

∞∞∞ wrote:
CitadelGrad wrote:Why is there a Department of Education?
I assume it partly has something to do with this part of the story:
As it turns out, the teachers unions are the single largest contributor to federally elected politicians, with the vast majority of their funds going to Democrats. The teachers unions don’t like programs like OSP because when parents have the freedom to choose, they may choose schools that don’t have unionized teachers.
Case closed.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Skjellyfetti »

CitadelGrad wrote:Why is there a Department of Education?
Because the states fucked up their responsibility. :nod:

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If we let states run things... schools would still be segregated. :(

Well, actually the schools in the South probably wouldn't be segregated... because they'd still be enslaved and educating them would be illegal... but, you get my point. :kisswink:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by HI54UNI »

Baldy wrote:Thank you, President Obama. :ohno:
+1

Yet how many of the people impacted by this decision voted for him? :ohno:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by CitadelGrad »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
CitadelGrad wrote:Why is there a Department of Education?
Because the states fucked up their responsibility. :nod:

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If we let states run things... schools would still be segregated. :(

Well, actually the schools in the South probably wouldn't be segregated... because they'd still be enslaved and educating them would be illegal... but, you get my point. :kisswink:
Um, so it was the Dept. of Education that ended segregation in schools in the South? That must have been the department's most astonishing success as it wasn't founded until 1980, long after segregation was ruled to be unconstitutional.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by citdog »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
CitadelGrad wrote:Why is there a Department of Education?
Because the states fucked up their responsibility. :nod:

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If we let states run things... schools would still be segregated. :(

Well, actually the schools in the South probably wouldn't be segregated... because they'd still be enslaved and educating them would be illegal... but, you get my point. :kisswink:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by CID1990 »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
CitadelGrad wrote:Why is there a Department of Education?
Because the states **** up their responsibility. :nod:

Image

If we let states run things... schools would still be segregated. :(

Well, actually the schools in the South probably wouldn't be segregated... because they'd still be enslaved and educating them would be illegal... but, you get my point. :kisswink:
It seems like every funny impediment to actually teaching in class comes from a Federal edict.

The whole mainstream - special education fiasco is a direct cause of the majority of the mayhem in classrooms, and it is entirely federally sanctioned. The state governments spend gobs of money beating their heads against the federal rules in courts just to expel some of these kids who have been deemed to have ODD (that's oppositional defiant disorder- for those of you who may still be un-annointed).

So Mississippi would flounder. Big deal, they are already 50th, anyway. (Or 52nd by Obamamath).
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

:rofl: Classic conk prescriptions - ban the unions, close the Department of Education...

And tell me, where does the $ come from to send the OSP kids to charter schools? I though you guys were against redistributing wealth and stealing. :ohno:

The public schools in our district our absolutely terrific! The teachers and administrators are extremely professional, and the community support is amazing. It's standing room only with overflow parking for the night of the math fair. :shock: And the Washington State has an extremely powerful teacher's union. :coffee:

The problem with education is clearly socio-economics/parenting.
Published on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 by Rethinking Schools
What’s Up with All the Teacher Bashing?
by Rethinking Schools Editors

It's hard not to take it personally: A few months ago, the cover of Newsweek consisted of 11 sentences in chalk on a blackboard. They all said the same thing: "We must fire bad teachers." Big yellow text in the center called it "The Key to Saving American Education."
Teachers have always been devalued in the United States, but in the past months the pace and intensity of the attacks have escalated sharply. Spurred by the June 2 deadline for the second round of Race to the Top, states have raced to fire more teachers, tie pay and evaluation to student test scores, close or reconstitute more schools, and disempower teachers' unions and teaching as a profession-trampling teachers, students, and communities in the process.

What lies behind this unprecedented assault on teachers? And, even more important, what can we do about it? We believe that these attacks are part of an effort to dismantle public education and that we need an effective, collaborative strategy to combat it.

But let's start with what isn't going on. In virtually the same words used to sell No Child Left Behind in the early years of Bush II, the attacks on teachers are phrased in terms of "closing the achievement gap." In fact, the first paragraph of Newsweek's "Why We Can't Get Rid of Failing Teachers" story concludes: "Within the United States, the achievement gap between white students and poor and minority students stubbornly persists-and as the population of disadvantaged students grows, overall scores continue to sag." It would be nice if Newsweek were suddenly worried about how race and class affect student success. But these diatribes against teachers are not based in a commitment to equity.

No, if closing the achievement gap were the goal, we would see demands for adequate, equitable resources and funding for every student in every school-demands, for example, for quality early childhood education programs, full-time librarians, robust arts and physical education programs, mandated caps on class size, and enough time for teachers to prepare and collaborate. We would also see a renewed commitment to affirmative action in university admissions; a drive to recruit and nurture teachers of color; a commitment to ensure that students come to school ready to learn because their families have housing, food, medical care, and jobs; and an end to zero tolerance discipline policies that criminalize youth.

But if these attacks on teachers aren't about ending the systemic racism that continues to undermine our education system, what is the goal? With forces as seemingly disparate as the Obama administration, the Walton Foundation, the late Milton Friedman, and the New York Times all pushing the same ideas, this is a complicated question, but there are at least two major goals: destroy the power of the teachers' unions, and turn the public school system from a public trust into a new market for corporate development. From the time of Reagan, who used his "welfare queen" stories to scapegoat the poor as a basis on which to destroy the welfare system, this has been a tried-and-true approach to privatization: use visceral anecdotes to whip up hysteria that a system is "broken," argue that only market competition can fix the situation, and then sell off pieces of the public sector to private corporations. This time, teachers are the scapegoats.

So it's no accident that a major thrust of the media and political campaign has been the elimination of teacher tenure, which is blamed for making it hard to fire "bad" teachers. Everyone-as student, parent, or colleague-has felt the impact of teachers who should not be in the classroom. But don't blame tenure. Tenure is not a guaranteed job for life; it's the right, which all employees deserve, not to be fired without due process and without just cause. If the goal were really better teaching, Race to the Top would be promoting union/district peer review and mentoring programs that are effective in helping struggling teachers and removing those who can't make the grade. Instead, President Obama and Secretary of Education Duncan have made linking retention and salaries to test scores a precondition for Race to the Top funds, and encouraged states to break the power of teachers' unions.

The attacks on tenure are, in fact, essentially attacks on the teachers' unions. Despite their problems, teachers' unions are one of the few remaining bulwarks of organized labor. They are the only protection for teachers' rights and, at their best, facilitate teachers joining forces with parents and students to fight for equitable, forward-thinking schools that meet the needs of communities and the future.

Teacher tenure-at both the K-12 and university level-is enormously important, not just to individual teachers, but also to society as a whole. Tenure is protection against shortsighted or vindictive administrators. Tenure is what enables teachers to collaborate with each other instead of competing, to speak up for the rights of students, and to fight for justice in the classroom, the school community, and the larger community that the school serves.

"Bad teachers" are being used as the excuse to turn schools into one more arena for corporate development. First Hurricane Katrina provided the context in New Orleans for firing all unionized teachers and replacing most of the public education system with market-driven charter schools. Now this phony "crisis of bad teachers," piled atop the economic crisis, is supposedly the reason to dismantle much of the country's commitment to public education. Just in the past few months, both Obama and Duncan publicly applauded the firing of every teacher at a Rhode Island high school; Detroit Public Schools Emergency Financial Manager Robert Bobb announced plans to close another 44 schools in that city and replace them with non-union private and semiprivate charters; and the Florida legislature voted to eliminate teacher tenure entirely and revoke credentials based on standardized test scores.

Teachers, teachers' unions, and public education itself are under serious threat. It's vital that we build alliances with everyone who stands to lose from these assaults on public education.

And obviously teachers aren't the only ones under attack. The most vulnerable to the impact of privatization are students, whose education has become progressively more circumscribed and rigid. Increased reliance on exit exams and zero tolerance discipline policies have led to increasing rates of suspension, expulsion, and dropouts.

Also under attack are parents and communities. African American, Latino, and immigrant communities have always been distinguished by their commitment to education as central to the democratic process and to the success of their children. When mayoral or gubernatorial control of schools eliminates local school boards, parents and community members lose their ability to hold schools accountable.

Teachers can defend themselves from this hailstorm of criticism only if they make common cause with everyone who has a stake in defending-and transforming-public schools. In this struggle, teachers and parents need each other. But building successful coalitions and strategies takes hard work. Many parents, particularly parents of color, are angry and frustrated by long-term dysfunctions in schools that make it difficult for their children to learn and succeed. Anything that brings more accountability-from standardized tests to mayoral control-can seem better than the status quo. Teachers too often see the families and communities from which their students come as obstacles to overcome. But successful teaching and successful organizing are based on recognizing the strengths inherent in families and communities.

The survival of public education depends on our ability to grasp these larger truths. For all their faults, public schools are at the center of building democracy, community by community, from the ground up. It's going to take all of us working together to save them and turn them into institutions that promote democracy and empower youth-all our youth.

When parents, students, and teachers have worked together, we have been able to protect our schools and begin to transform them. Deluged with "Stop this bill" messages, demonstrations, and walkouts, Florida's Republican governor vetoed the anti-teacher, anti-education bill passed by the Florida legislature. Student-led community demonstrations for immigrant rights, the successful campaign to fend off mayoral control in Milwaukee, and the grassroots efforts to save teacher jobs and control the charter process in Los Angeles are other recent examples. If there were ever a time to overcome divisions and fight together for strong, equitable schools, this is it.

© 2010 Rethinking Schools
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by andy7171 »

CitadelGrad wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Because the states fucked up their responsibility. :nod:

Image

If we let states run things... schools would still be segregated. :(

Well, actually the schools in the South probably wouldn't be segregated... because they'd still be enslaved and educating them would be illegal... but, you get my point. :kisswink:
Um, so it was the Dept. of Education that ended segregation in schools in the South? That must have been the department's most astonishing success as it wasn't founded until 1980, long after segregation was ruled to be unconstitutional.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by CitadelGrad »

kalm wrote:The problem with education is clearly socio-economics/parenting.
Did it occur to you that the vast majority of those bad parents who don't emphasize eduction were also educated in public schools? Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system. Most of the teachers were a joke and the curriculum was watered down to the level of the lowest common denominator.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Pwns »

kalm wrote::rofl: Classic conk prescriptions - ban the unions, close the Department of Education...

And tell me, where does the $ come from to send the OSP kids to charter schools? I though you guys were against redistributing wealth and stealing. :ohno:
The amount of money spent to send one kid to a private or charter school for a year is almost always less than the per-pupil spending in the public schools. If anything it could save a lot of money if we could send kids off to schools.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by GannonFan »

CitadelGrad wrote:
kalm wrote:The problem with education is clearly socio-economics/parenting.
Did it occur to you that the vast majority of those bad parents who don't emphasize eduction were also educated in public schools? Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system. Most of the teachers were a joke and the curriculum was watered down to the level of the lowest common denominator.
By what barometer have we now decided, as you say, that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education? That's a pretty broad, and completely unsubstantiated position to take, especially considering that the whole notion of socio-economic problems is pretty deep and complex. While it would be great to just find one aspect that has caused those problems (it's the public schools and the public schools only!!!), that just makes for good headlines but little solutions.

Schools, even the best funded and best staffed and best run, cannot by themselves overcome any and all environmental factors that go into forming and developing young minds. I agree that many public schools can improve and they should, but there's a lot more going on than just the quality of education in public schools.

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system too. Most of my teachers were pretty good, and the cirriculum was pretty varied and specialized to give each student a level of education they could handle (with a minimum requirement, of course). Does my experience negate your's now? :coffee:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote::rofl: Classic conk prescriptions - ban the unions, close the Department of Education...

And tell me, where does the $ come from to send the OSP kids to charter schools? I though you guys were against redistributing wealth and stealing. :ohno:

The public schools in our district our absolutely terrific! The teachers and administrators are extremely professional, and the community support is amazing. It's standing room only with overflow parking for the night of the math fair. :shock: And the Washington State has an extremely powerful teacher's union. :coffee:

The problem with education is clearly socio-economics/parenting.
Published on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 by Rethinking Schools
What’s Up with All the Teacher Bashing?
by Rethinking Schools Editors

It's hard not to take it personally: A few months ago, the cover of Newsweek consisted of 11 sentences in chalk on a blackboard. They all said the same thing: "We must fire bad teachers." Big yellow text in the center called it "The Key to Saving American Education."
Teachers have always been devalued in the United States, but in the past months the pace and intensity of the attacks have escalated sharply. Spurred by the June 2 deadline for the second round of Race to the Top, states have raced to fire more teachers, tie pay and evaluation to student test scores, close or reconstitute more schools, and disempower teachers' unions and teaching as a profession-trampling teachers, students, and communities in the process.

What lies behind this unprecedented assault on teachers? And, even more important, what can we do about it? We believe that these attacks are part of an effort to dismantle public education and that we need an effective, collaborative strategy to combat it.

But let's start with what isn't going on. In virtually the same words used to sell No Child Left Behind in the early years of Bush II, the attacks on teachers are phrased in terms of "closing the achievement gap." In fact, the first paragraph of Newsweek's "Why We Can't Get Rid of Failing Teachers" story concludes: "Within the United States, the achievement gap between white students and poor and minority students stubbornly persists-and as the population of disadvantaged students grows, overall scores continue to sag." It would be nice if Newsweek were suddenly worried about how race and class affect student success. But these diatribes against teachers are not based in a commitment to equity.

No, if closing the achievement gap were the goal, we would see demands for adequate, equitable resources and funding for every student in every school-demands, for example, for quality early childhood education programs, full-time librarians, robust arts and physical education programs, mandated caps on class size, and enough time for teachers to prepare and collaborate. We would also see a renewed commitment to affirmative action in university admissions; a drive to recruit and nurture teachers of color; a commitment to ensure that students come to school ready to learn because their families have housing, food, medical care, and jobs; and an end to zero tolerance discipline policies that criminalize youth.

But if these attacks on teachers aren't about ending the systemic racism that continues to undermine our education system, what is the goal? With forces as seemingly disparate as the Obama administration, the Walton Foundation, the late Milton Friedman, and the New York Times all pushing the same ideas, this is a complicated question, but there are at least two major goals: destroy the power of the teachers' unions, and turn the public school system from a public trust into a new market for corporate development. From the time of Reagan, who used his "welfare queen" stories to scapegoat the poor as a basis on which to destroy the welfare system, this has been a tried-and-true approach to privatization: use visceral anecdotes to whip up hysteria that a system is "broken," argue that only market competition can fix the situation, and then sell off pieces of the public sector to private corporations. This time, teachers are the scapegoats.

So it's no accident that a major thrust of the media and political campaign has been the elimination of teacher tenure, which is blamed for making it hard to fire "bad" teachers. Everyone-as student, parent, or colleague-has felt the impact of teachers who should not be in the classroom. But don't blame tenure. Tenure is not a guaranteed job for life; it's the right, which all employees deserve, not to be fired without due process and without just cause. If the goal were really better teaching, Race to the Top would be promoting union/district peer review and mentoring programs that are effective in helping struggling teachers and removing those who can't make the grade. Instead, President Obama and Secretary of Education Duncan have made linking retention and salaries to test scores a precondition for Race to the Top funds, and encouraged states to break the power of teachers' unions.

The attacks on tenure are, in fact, essentially attacks on the teachers' unions. Despite their problems, teachers' unions are one of the few remaining bulwarks of organized labor. They are the only protection for teachers' rights and, at their best, facilitate teachers joining forces with parents and students to fight for equitable, forward-thinking schools that meet the needs of communities and the future.

Teacher tenure-at both the K-12 and university level-is enormously important, not just to individual teachers, but also to society as a whole. Tenure is protection against shortsighted or vindictive administrators. Tenure is what enables teachers to collaborate with each other instead of competing, to speak up for the rights of students, and to fight for justice in the classroom, the school community, and the larger community that the school serves.

"Bad teachers" are being used as the excuse to turn schools into one more arena for corporate development. First Hurricane Katrina provided the context in New Orleans for firing all unionized teachers and replacing most of the public education system with market-driven charter schools. Now this phony "crisis of bad teachers," piled atop the economic crisis, is supposedly the reason to dismantle much of the country's commitment to public education. Just in the past few months, both Obama and Duncan publicly applauded the firing of every teacher at a Rhode Island high school; Detroit Public Schools Emergency Financial Manager Robert Bobb announced plans to close another 44 schools in that city and replace them with non-union private and semiprivate charters; and the Florida legislature voted to eliminate teacher tenure entirely and revoke credentials based on standardized test scores.

Teachers, teachers' unions, and public education itself are under serious threat. It's vital that we build alliances with everyone who stands to lose from these assaults on public education.

And obviously teachers aren't the only ones under attack. The most vulnerable to the impact of privatization are students, whose education has become progressively more circumscribed and rigid. Increased reliance on exit exams and zero tolerance discipline policies have led to increasing rates of suspension, expulsion, and dropouts.

Also under attack are parents and communities. African American, Latino, and immigrant communities have always been distinguished by their commitment to education as central to the democratic process and to the success of their children. When mayoral or gubernatorial control of schools eliminates local school boards, parents and community members lose their ability to hold schools accountable.

Teachers can defend themselves from this hailstorm of criticism only if they make common cause with everyone who has a stake in defending-and transforming-public schools. In this struggle, teachers and parents need each other. But building successful coalitions and strategies takes hard work. Many parents, particularly parents of color, are angry and frustrated by long-term dysfunctions in schools that make it difficult for their children to learn and succeed. Anything that brings more accountability-from standardized tests to mayoral control-can seem better than the status quo. Teachers too often see the families and communities from which their students come as obstacles to overcome. But successful teaching and successful organizing are based on recognizing the strengths inherent in families and communities.

The survival of public education depends on our ability to grasp these larger truths. For all their faults, public schools are at the center of building democracy, community by community, from the ground up. It's going to take all of us working together to save them and turn them into institutions that promote democracy and empower youth-all our youth.

When parents, students, and teachers have worked together, we have been able to protect our schools and begin to transform them. Deluged with "Stop this bill" messages, demonstrations, and walkouts, Florida's Republican governor vetoed the anti-teacher, anti-education bill passed by the Florida legislature. Student-led community demonstrations for immigrant rights, the successful campaign to fend off mayoral control in Milwaukee, and the grassroots efforts to save teacher jobs and control the charter process in Los Angeles are other recent examples. If there were ever a time to overcome divisions and fight together for strong, equitable schools, this is it.

© 2010 Rethinking Schools
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rethinking Schools? Why not quote directly from Mao's Little Red Book? :roll:
Who would have thought you and Bill Ayers would be so much alike? :lol:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote:
CitadelGrad wrote:
Did it occur to you that the vast majority of those bad parents who don't emphasize eduction were also educated in public schools? Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system. Most of the teachers were a joke and the curriculum was watered down to the level of the lowest common denominator.
By what barometer have we now decided, as you say, that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education? That's a pretty broad, and completely unsubstantiated position to take, especially considering that the whole notion of socio-economic problems is pretty deep and complex. While it would be great to just find one aspect that has caused those problems (it's the public schools and the public schools only!!!), that just makes for good headlines but little solutions.

Schools, even the best funded and best staffed and best run, cannot by themselves overcome any and all environmental factors that go into forming and developing young minds. I agree that many public schools can improve and they should, but there's a lot more going on than just the quality of education in public schools.

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system too. Most of my teachers were pretty good, and the cirriculum was pretty varied and specialized to give each student a level of education they could handle (with a minimum requirement, of course). Does my experience negate your's now? :coffee:
nailed it. :thumb:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote::rofl: Classic conk prescriptions - ban the unions, close the Department of Education...

And tell me, where does the $ come from to send the OSP kids to charter schools? I though you guys were against redistributing wealth and stealing. :ohno:

The public schools in our district our absolutely terrific! The teachers and administrators are extremely professional, and the community support is amazing. It's standing room only with overflow parking for the night of the math fair. :shock: And the Washington State has an extremely powerful teacher's union. :coffee:

The problem with education is clearly socio-economics/parenting.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rethinking Schools? Why not quote directly from Mao's Little Red Book? :roll:
Who would have thought you and Bill Ayers would be so much alike? :lol:
Whoa!!!! That was a zinger and hilllllllarious. :ohno:

On que and classic Baldy. Define the source as communistic, throw in a Ayers or Alinsky jab, and contribute nothing to the debate.

I see you brought your a-game today. :thumb:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Chizzang »

Baldy wrote:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rethinking Schools? Why not quote directly from Mao's Little Red Book? :roll:
Who would have thought you and Bill Ayers would be so much alike? :lol:
As the dumbest industrialized nation on Earth - yes - we need to rethink our entire education system...

But "protecting" teachers from the rigors of a competitive environment and not exposing them to the same business climate everybody else is exposed to in corporate America is ridiculous.

Don't believe me: Look how that worked for the U.S. Auto Makers
This is one example where the bible is not the answer - union is not the answer - money is not the answer

A simple understandable competitive environment is the answer...
Start by firing the entire school board management in place at every under achieving high school in America, then let the teachers know - the competition to keep you job starts NOW..!!!




:nod:
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A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by GannonFan »

Chizzang wrote:
Baldy wrote:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rethinking Schools? Why not quote directly from Mao's Little Red Book? :roll:
Who would have thought you and Bill Ayers would be so much alike? :lol:
As the dumbest industrialized nation on Earth - yes - we need to rethink our entire education system...

But "protecting" teachers from the rigors of a competitive environment and not exposing them to the same business climate everybody else is exposed to in corporate America is ridiculous.

Don't believe me: Look how that worked for the U.S. Auto Makers
This is one example where the bible is not the answer - union is not the answer - money is not the answer

A simple understandable competitive environment is the answer...
Start by firing the entire school board management in place at every under achieving high school in America, then let the teachers know - the competition to keep you job starts NOW..!!!




:nod:
Everybody else in corporate America is not exposed to the potential of vindictive/upset/overinvolved parents who, if they have the ear of the principal, could singlehandidly, in the absence of tenure, cause a teacher to be fired.

I'm no fan of across the board tenure like many places have now, and I'm no fan of teacher's unions in general, but there does have to be some protection for teachers to be able to teach and, if need be, criticize students (in the form of pointing out flaws or weaknesses) and not fear for the backlash from parents who don't agree and feel it is the teacher who is letting down their child. Like I said, as an engineer I don't have to worry about the parents of another engineer calling my boss to complain about the work I do.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by CitadelGrad »

GannonFan wrote:
CitadelGrad wrote:
Did it occur to you that the vast majority of those bad parents who don't emphasize eduction were also educated in public schools? Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system. Most of the teachers were a joke and the curriculum was watered down to the level of the lowest common denominator.
By what barometer have we now decided, as you say, that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education? That's a pretty broad, and completely unsubstantiated position to take, especially considering that the whole notion of socio-economic problems is pretty deep and complex. While it would be great to just find one aspect that has caused those problems (it's the public schools and the public schools only!!!), that just makes for good headlines but little solutions.

Schools, even the best funded and best staffed and best run, cannot by themselves overcome any and all environmental factors that go into forming and developing young minds. I agree that many public schools can improve and they should, but there's a lot more going on than just the quality of education in public schools.

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system too. Most of my teachers were pretty good, and the cirriculum was pretty varied and specialized to give each student a level of education they could handle (with a minimum requirement, of course). Does my experience negate your's now? :coffee:
I knew someone would make an idiotic response like this, but I expected it to be kalm. I did not say that socio-economic issues are cause by public schools only. If you can't find anything truly objectionable about what I wrote, then you need only attribute to me statements that I didn't write, right?

There are certain things we should be able to acknowledge. First, there is not enough emphasis on education in too many households. Most of those households are run by parents who were educated in public schools in the last 20-25 years. That probably isn't just a coincidence. Second, the quality of education in public schools has declined in the last 30 years. The Dept. of Education was established 30 years ago. That probably isn't a coincidence either. The decline may have started before then, but as someone who graduated from high school in 1980, I'm pretty sure the decline has accelerated since I left high school. Third, it isn't possible to point to even one initiative from the Dept. of Education that has come close to reversing the decline in the quality of public school education on a large scale.

The litmus test for measuring the effectiveness of the Dept. of Education is this: Has public education improved in the 30 years since the Dept. of Education was established? If the answer is "no", then what possible reason is there for maintaining it? I don't know anyone who would say that there has been an improvement in the last 30 years. Even the department's own statistics show no improvement.

The Dept. of Education currently employs 4,800 and will have a 2011 budget of $77.8 billions. In 1980 the budget was $13.1 billion and there were 450 employees. During those years test scores in English, math and science have flat-lined even though there is evidence that those tests have been dumbed down. Exactly where is that money going and what are these employees doing? I would think that at $16.2 million per employee, they might be just a little more productive than they are.

Is the answer to the problem even more money? If so, can you tell me why several states that spend among the least per pupil rank among the top ten in test scores while D.C. has the highest per student expenditures but ranks dead last among the states in test scores?

The question remains. Why is there a Dept. of Education?
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by GannonFan »

CitadelGrad wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
By what barometer have we now decided, as you say, that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education? That's a pretty broad, and completely unsubstantiated position to take, especially considering that the whole notion of socio-economic problems is pretty deep and complex. While it would be great to just find one aspect that has caused those problems (it's the public schools and the public schools only!!!), that just makes for good headlines but little solutions.

Schools, even the best funded and best staffed and best run, cannot by themselves overcome any and all environmental factors that go into forming and developing young minds. I agree that many public schools can improve and they should, but there's a lot more going on than just the quality of education in public schools.

I was educated in what was considered to be a better than average public school system too. Most of my teachers were pretty good, and the cirriculum was pretty varied and specialized to give each student a level of education they could handle (with a minimum requirement, of course). Does my experience negate your's now? :coffee:
I knew someone would make an idiotic response like this, but I expected it to be kalm. I did not say that socio-economic issues are cause by public schools only. If you can't find anything truly objectionable about what I wrote, then you need only attribute to me statements that I didn't write, right?
CitadelGrad wrote:Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education
To help you out, I bolded the part you wrote and then bolded the part I wrote. Heck, I even quoted you.
CitadelGrad wrote:
There are certain things we should be able to acknowledge. First, there is not enough emphasis on education in too many households. Most of those households are run by parents who were educated in public schools in the last 20-25 years. That probably isn't just a coincidence. Second, the quality of education in public schools has declined in the last 30 years. The Dept. of Education was established 30 years ago. That probably isn't a coincidence either. The decline may have started before then, but as someone who graduated from high school in 1980, I'm pretty sure the decline has accelerated since I left high school. Third, it isn't possible to point to even one initiative from the Dept. of Education that has come close to reversing the decline in the quality of public school education on a large scale.

The litmus test for measuring the effectiveness of the Dept. of Education is this: Has public education improved in the 30 years since the Dept. of Education was established? If the answer is "no", then what possible reason is there for maintaining it? I don't know anyone who would say that there has been an improvement in the last 30 years. Even the department's own statistics show no improvement.

The Dept. of Education currently employs 4,800 and will have a 2011 budget of $77.8 billions. In 1980 the budget was $13.1 billion and there were 450 employees. During those years test scores in English, math and science have flat-lined even though there is evidence that those tests have been dumbed down. Exactly where is that money going and what are these employees doing? I would think that at $16.2 million per employee, they might be just a little more productive than they are.

Is the answer to the problem even more money? If so, can you tell me why several states that spend among the least per pupil rank among the top ten in test scores while D.C. has the highest per student expenditures but ranks dead last among the states in test scores?

The question remains. Why is there a Dept. of Education?
Hey, I agree, the Federal Dept of Education is not really all that useful in the grand scheme of things. They aren't really responsible for much as education is and has been largely a local affair. But that's the thing, then, I don't see how the federal Dept of Education, which most people will agree has very little to do in terms of cirriculum or teacher work policies, is all of a sudden to blame for the supposed decline of education in America. How can a department that has so little power be so responsible for something like this? I think you can certainly argue that the federal Dept of Education is relatively useless, especially, oddly, where it pertains to education. But I then don't see how that Dept can be seen as the albatross that has dragged down the public education system (if that's actually happened). Get rid of the Dept of Education today and it changes little to nothing in terms of the educational situation in America.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by blueballs »

Chizzang wrote:
Baldy wrote:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rethinking Schools? Why not quote directly from Mao's Little Red Book? :roll:
Who would have thought you and Bill Ayers would be so much alike? :lol:
As the dumbest industrialized nation on Earth - yes - we need to rethink our entire education system...

But "protecting" teachers from the rigors of a competitive environment and not exposing them to the same business climate everybody else is exposed to in corporate America is ridiculous.

Don't believe me: Look how that worked for the U.S. Auto Makers
This is one example where the bible is not the answer - union is not the answer - money is not the answer

A simple understandable competitive environment is the answer...
Start by firing the entire school board management in place at every under achieving high school in America, then let the teachers know - the competition to keep you job starts NOW..!!!




:nod:
... and do away with tenure while they're at it.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
Baldy wrote:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rethinking Schools? Why not quote directly from Mao's Little Red Book? :roll:
Who would have thought you and Bill Ayers would be so much alike? :lol:
As the dumbest industrialized nation on Earth - yes - we need to rethink our entire education system...

But "protecting" teachers from the rigors of a competitive environment and not exposing them to the same business climate everybody else is exposed to in corporate America is ridiculous.

Don't believe me: Look how that worked for the U.S. Auto Makers
This is one example where the bible is not the answer - union is not the answer - money is not the answer

A simple understandable competitive environment is the answer...
Start by firing the entire school board management in place at every under achieving high school in America, then let the teachers know - the competition to keep you job starts NOW..!!!




:nod:
1) The problem occurrs long before high school.

2) Teachers are not the main source of the problem, although I do agree that competition is not a bad thing. Right now the competition lies in even getting a teaching job with cut backs and school closures. At least in the Northwest you have be well qualified and typically carry a Masters in Ed to even get a sniff and there are many applicants. The days of Mr. Brown taking hits off the bottle of J.B. between classes and coasting into retirement are over.

3) I stole your format. :thumb:

:coffee:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

CitadelGrad wrote:
I knew someone would make an idiotic response like this, but I expected it to be kalm. I did not say that socio-economic issues are cause by public schools only. If you can't find anything truly objectionable about what I wrote, then you need only attribute to me statements that I didn't write, right?
You're right. From now on I will lob volley's back over the net easy enough for you to catch up to. :thumb:
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