Sustainable

[Gil Dobie]

Maybe we could learn something from cultures that predated our venture here in North America

Like the Amish

[Gil Dobie]

Well the Native populations did manage NOT to kill each other off after 10,000 years living around each other..
We did it in about 200

The Mayan civilization was famous for conquering and killing off or enslaving other cultures.

[Skjellyfetti]

Well the Native populations did manage NOT to kill each other off after 10,000 years living around each other..
We did it in about 200

The Mayan civilization was famous for conquering and killing off or enslaving other cultures.

Mayans didn't kill any cultures off. And they were conquering and enslaving each other for the most part.

[native]

...Well the Native populations did manage NOT to kill each other off after 10,000 years living around each other..
We did it in about 200 ...

The Europeans had better tools.

Sure we can always learn from others, but most of the tribes hated each other and fought constantly just as every other tribe and clan of every ethnicity has done since before recorded history. From Day One the Europeans were able to recruit native allies due to this fact.

[Chizzang]

All I'm hearing is advanced apologetics...

[YoUDeeMan]

Well the Native populations did manage NOT to kill each other off after 10,000 years living around each other..
We did it in about 200

And BTW: nobody is "romanticizing" anything... the topic is sustainability - which is something we don't know ****-all about...

Maybe we could learn something from cultures that predated our venture here in North America

No apologies necessary. C'mon Cleets...how many cultures have been truly sustainable? The answer is zero. Read that again....ZERO.

You crap on Europeans and say they need to learn from the Native AMericans? That is just your personal whacked out version of revisionist history. White, black, brown..doesn't matter...if the population grows, you need more food, water, etc. Do you honestly think the Native American population was kept in check by their love of nature?

Early Man were nomads that just followed the food supply. But, their groups grew in numbers and they continued to use more resources...it just wasn't as noticible when populations were low. And when Man first settled into an agrarian lyfstyle, they just moved whenever they out grew or polluted their surroundings. But populations grew...and that means they eventually become unsustainable in their particular environment.

Face it, Man came out of Africa and has expanded ever since, killing/conquering everything in our path in order to get "more". North Americans were no different...they just had a bit more land in the early days.

[Chizzang]

Well the Native populations did manage NOT to kill each other off after 10,000 years living around each other..
We did it in about 200

And BTW: nobody is "romanticizing" anything... the topic is sustainability - which is something we don't know ****-all about...

Maybe we could learn something from cultures that predated our venture here in North America

No apologies necessary. C'mon Cleets...how many cultures have been truly sustainable? The answer is zero. Read that again....ZERO.

You crap on Europeans and say they need to learn from the Native AMericans? That is just your personal whacked out version of revisionist history. White, black, brown..doesn't matter...if the population grows, you need more food, water, etc. Do you honestly think the Native American population was kept in check by their love of nature?

Early Man were nomads that just followed the food supply. But, their groups grew in numbers and they continued to use more resources...it just wasn't as noticible when populations were low. And when Man first settled into an agrarian lyfstyle, they just moved whenever they out grew or polluted their surroundings. But populations grew...and that means they eventually become unsustainable in their particular environment.

Face it, Man came out of Africa and has expanded ever since, killing/conquering everything in our path in order to get "more". North Americans were no different...they just had a bit more land in the early days.

You make a HUGE number of presumptions about what you think I'm saying....

[Gil Dobie]

The Mayan civilization was famous for conquering and killing off or enslaving other cultures.

Mayans didn't kill any cultures off. And they were conquering and enslaving each other for the most part.

Just the act of conquering and enslaving another Mayan tribe or village, is killing that specific culture off.

[Skjellyfetti]

Just the act of conquering and enslaving another Mayan tribe or village, is killing that specific culture off.

They're part of the same culture.......

It's like Athens vs. Sparta (Peloponnesian War).

When Calakmul sacked Tikal they didn't destroy Tikal's civilization or culture. They cut out some hearts, chopped off some genitalia, and such... but, they didn't kill off any culture or civilization.

[Gil Dobie]

Just the act of conquering and enslaving another Mayan tribe or village, is killing that specific culture off.

They're part of the same culture.......

It's like Athens vs. Sparta (Peloponnesian War).

When Calakmul sacked Tikal they didn't destroy Tikal's civilization or culture. They cut out some hearts, chopped off some genitalia, and such... but, they didn't kill off any culture or civilization.

You are giving and example of a larger culture group, they killed off may village's and area units that had unique cultures, and I didn't say they killed off a civilization you are implying did. The Mayan's sacrificed their enemies, enslaved them and sold them off, limiting their ability to expand the defeated cultural activities and beliefs again.

[Skjellyfetti]

You are giving and example of a larger culture group, they killed off may village's and area units that had unique cultures, and I didn't say they killed off a civilization you are implying did. The Mayan's sacrificed their enemies, enslaved them and sold them off, limiting their ability to expand the defeated cultural activities and beliefs again.

Please cite some examples of specific "villages and area units" with "unique cultures" that Mayan city-states "killed off."

[Gil Dobie]

You are giving and example of a larger culture group, they killed off may village's and area units that had unique cultures, and I didn't say they killed off a civilization you are implying did. The Mayan's sacrificed their enemies, enslaved them and sold them off, limiting their ability to expand the defeated cultural activities and beliefs again.

Please cite some examples of specific "villages and area units" with "unique cultures" that Mayan city-states "killed off."

How can you destroy a village and not destroy the culture that existed in the village (not even an entire city state). Any village destroyed is a unique culture destroyed. Some of the Mayan cultures with a desire to build larger temples, etc, needed to expand to get more labor for these efforts, therefore conquering others whose culture did not involve the larger temples, killed their leaders and enslaving it's residence, and expanding it's territory, assimilating that culture. If I had time I could go back to my college history books and give you names.

[AshevilleApp]

I fuckin love where these things go!

[CID1990]

This whole thread should ultimately be titled "white guilt discussion".

[ASUG8]

This whole thread should ultimately be titled "white guilt discussion".

Hey now - I've never killed or enslaved anyone, much less removed a still beating heart from anyone. Just mindin' my own business here.

[mebison]

This whole thread should ultimately be titled "white guilt discussion".

Hey now - I've never killed or enslaved anyone, much less removed a still beating heart from anyone. Just mindin' my own business here.

You've been a victim of that, though, right?

[youtube][/youtube]

[AshevilleApp]

Hey now - I've never killed or enslaved anyone, much less removed a still beating heart from anyone. Just mindin' my own business here.

You've been a victim of that, though, right?

[youtube][/youtube]

You gotta make that catch.

[mebison]

You've been a victim of that, though, right?

[youtube][/youtube]

You gotta make that catch.

Sorry, that was probably uncalled for, even in the poli lounge.

[AshevilleApp]

You gotta make that catch.

Sorry, that was probably uncalled for, even in the poli lounge.

No permanent damage done. That's actually the first time I've let myself watch the replay. I'm looking forward to September 1, 2012.

[Chizzang]

Sorry, that was probably uncalled for, even in the poli lounge.

No permanent damage done. That's actually the first time I've let myself watch the replay. I'm looking forward to September 1, 2012.

And that was a fumble on the 3 yard line by App.
plain as day - there should have never been a "final pass"

but it all went the way it was supposed to

[Skjellyfetti]

How can you destroy a village and not destroy the culture that existed in the village (not even an entire city state). Any village destroyed is a unique culture destroyed. Some of the Mayan cultures with a desire to build larger temples, etc, needed to expand to get more labor for these efforts, therefore conquering others whose culture did not involve the larger temples, killed their leaders and enslaving it's residence, and expanding it's territory, assimilating that culture. If I had time I could go back to my college history books and give you names.

Your college history books won't tell you shit about Mayan villages... much less when they were destroyed, how they were destroyed, etc... because there are only a few that have been discovered. Mayan villages were made of wood and didn't last like the stone cities. Trying to find post holes underground in the fucking jungle isn't easy. We don't know jack shit about how Mayans lived in villages. So, your knowledge is either confused, based off the shitty Mel Gibson movie Apocolypto, or just straight made up.

What we know about Mayan warfare is the fighting between city states, most notably Tikal and Calakmul. They didn't destroy each other. The loser just had to pay tribute and the captured soldiers were enslaved or sacrificed. They sacked each other several times throughout history... neither culture was destroyed until classical Mayan culture as a whole died out.

[Skjellyfetti]

You've been a victim of that, though, right?

[youtube][/youtube]

I'd take a heartbreaking loss in the semifinals of the playoffs any day over a 3-8 season.

[Chizzang]

How can you destroy a village and not destroy the culture that existed in the village (not even an entire city state). Any village destroyed is a unique culture destroyed. Some of the Mayan cultures with a desire to build larger temples, etc, needed to expand to get more labor for these efforts, therefore conquering others whose culture did not involve the larger temples, killed their leaders and enslaving it's residence, and expanding it's territory, assimilating that culture. If I had time I could go back to my college history books and give you names.

Your college history books won't tell you shit about Mayan villages... much less when they were destroyed, how they were destroyed, etc... because there are only a few that have been discovered. Mayan villages were made of wood and didn't last like the stone cities. Trying to find post holes underground in the fucking jungle isn't easy. We don't know jack shit about how Mayans lived in villages. So, your knowledge is either confused, based off the shitty Mel Gibson movie Apocolypto, or just straight made up.

What we know about Mayan warfare is the fighting between city states, most notably Tikal and Calakmul. They didn't destroy each other. The loser just had to pay tribute and the captured soldiers were enslaved or sacrificed. They sacked each other several times throughout history... neither culture was destroyed until classical Mayan culture as a whole died out.

I've noticed that if any credit is ever given to the balance or simplicity of Native cultures - just a simple nod of acknowledgment - it is responded to with all kinds of venomous defenses of our culture and some lashing out at how these native cultures weren't all that great etc...

Even when nobody was talking about our culture or doing anything more than observing...

The only acceptable comment about native cultures is: We killed them all, they were stupid and they deserved it

[mebison]

You've been a victim of that, though, right?

[youtube][/youtube]

I'd take a heartbreaking loss in the semifinals of the playoffs any day over a 3-8 season.

Yes, but we were talking about someone having their still-beating heart ripped out of their chest.

Our last season was more like ripping a hang-nail off and then bleeding to death...not nearly as dramatic, but still painful and either way you're dead by Christmas.

[YoUDeeMan]

I've noticed that if any credit is ever given to the balance or simplicity of Native cultures - just a simple nod of acknowledgment - it is responded to with all kinds of venomous defenses of our culture and some lashing out at how these native cultures weren't all that great etc...

Even when nobody was talking about our culture or doing anything more than observing...

The only acceptable comment about native cultures is: We killed them all, they were stupid and they deserved it

Yes...funny how some people always seem to insert slams of cultures into conversations. For instance, let's review this "Sustainablity" thread:

Post #:

1) It's the new green! You heard it here first. AshvilleApp

And so it began....

2) Aboriginal American culture practiced it 10,000 years ago. - kalm

kalm's coffee smilie indicates he isn't very impressed with today's sustainability and decides to inject a factiod, and quite a mistaken one, that another culture has already acheived sustainability.

3) They also wiped their asses with sticks. Any volunteers? – Benne

Benne inserts a zinger, but a funny one. kalm compared today to the past, so Benne had a chuckle. Hard to imagine this was a serious, venomous, defensive retort to defend any specific "culture".

4) And couldn’t come up with the wheel – Andy7171

Andy fires off another light hearted funny quip.

5) Wiped their sticks with asses and yet still able to figure out that sustainability is not a dirty word. - kalm

kalm seems a bit defensive and apparently didn't admire Benne's humor.

6) Yeah, well **** them! Who said they could use the land that god created for us, anyway? – Grizalltheway

Grizalltheway throws what has to be a whacked out funny from left field. If he is serious, then yup, he went straight for the main artery. If not serious, then he knew what was coming.

7) That's because they were still grunting and pointing. – Benne

A funny reply about kalm's use of dirty "word". Again, hard to take it seriously.

8) Didn't the founders get some of their ideas from the Iroquois Confederacy? – kalm

kalm is the FIRST person to bring in politics and get defensive about the Natives of the past while forcing a comparison to the foundation of today's culture.

9) You'd be hard pressed to find evidence that the Iroquois Confederacy existed 10,000 years ago. Besides I've seen documentaries.(with a pretty damned funny picture) - Benne

Benne again lobs a funny bomb that challenges kalm's reasoning for suddenly bringing up the Iroquis Confederacy and a link to our culture's founding father's into a conversation about sustainability. A good question. Then Benne even fires off a funny comment and picture to ensure that his humor is noticed.

10) The only thing that is presently "sustainable" in this Nation is the level of our insanity....Cleets

Pretty funny, but an attack on a culture. Taken with the same grain of salt as Benne, it is harmless.

11) And the major of choice for all hippies at App State. (with a link) - jellybelly

jellybelly's contribution...

12) Until white christians and Spanish Catholics murdered em and destroyed their civilizations. DB1

Still, perhaps a counterpoint to Grizalltheway's humor. Although DB1's relentless attacks on our culture and religions take the humor out of it.

13) have a Nat Geo pic of a bunch of Aborigines on their hands and knees drinking water from a mud puddle. That was just 30 years ago. – CID1990

CID1990 provides a history lesson...but was it an attack on someone else's culture or just an observation of what he saw in a respected magazine? Hardly a "lashing out".

14) Practiced by many American's into the early 1900's. – Gil Dobie

Gil's history lesson. No venom or lashing there.

15) Did you read the article or just look at the pretty pictures? Do you know why they have problems accessing water? You think they've always chosen to live in the parts of Australia with the least amounts of water? – jellybelly

jelly gets a bit defensive towards CID and walks the border of making it a political issue.

16) Australia and America have similar Native population stories... sad
Story's of deceit after deceit - lie after lie... it's a good thing white guys write the history books because if the Native peoples got a chance to write one for our school kids it would have a slightly different focus - Cleets

Hmmmmm...I think this qualifies as lashing out. And venomous. "Lie after lie...deceit after deceit"...by the "white guys".

Yup, funny how kalm brings up politics and direct comparisons to today's culture and then Cleets rips into white guys...even when, supposedly, "nobody was talking about our culture or doing anything more than observing."



Thanks....I had a lot of time on my hands.