Big East Football discusses Nova Option

[Dane96]

Now here comes the big question. If 'Nova did depart, what would that due to the Northern schools (UMASS, UNH and Maine) as the pot is further emptied.

I would have to think that Stony Brook and Albany would be given strong...strong longs even with the influx of the Southern teams (G. State and ODU last year). They give local games to those teams...and Stony Brook has the current facility (and I believe they are expanding by 3,000 - 4,000 seats).

Albany's funding to start Phase 1 is secure, as the other thread indicates, so we will be getting a 6,000 seat facility. The plan (per discussions months ago with some very high up university officials) is to Phase the facility in to have 24,000 seats. In truth, we probably will get through Phases 1 and 2 by 2014)...bringing the facility just over 11,000. While both those stadiums pale in size to anyone other than UNH, Maine and Towson, they will will be brand new. In addition, it gives more headway into the underrated NY football market for recruits. Upstate has always been a hotbed (UNH, Maine, UMASS, etc...and Boston College, Syracuse, Penn State, Rutgers...etc...always recruit upstate)...but the NYC-LI region is gaining traction over the past few years.

Not to hijack the thread...just a legit possibility that they may offer a "northern solution."

[State Line Liquors]

Now here comes the big question. If 'Nova did depart, what would that due to the Northern schools (UMASS, UNH and Maine) as the pot is further emptied.

I would have to think that Stony Brook and Albany would be given strong...strong longs even with the influx of the Southern teams (G. State and ODU last year). They give local games to those teams...and Stony Brook has the current facility (and I believe they are expanding by 3,000 - 4,000 seats).

Albany's funding to start Phase 1 is secure, as the other thread indicates, so we will be getting a 6,000 seat facility. The plan (per discussions months ago with some very high up university officials) is to Phase the facility in to have 24,000 seats. In truth, we probably will get through Phases 1 and 2 by 2014)...bringing the facility just over 11,000. While both those stadiums pale in size to anyone other than UNH, Maine and Towson, they will will be brand new. In addition, it gives more headway into the underrated NY football market for recruits. Upstate has always been a hotbed (UNH, Maine, UMASS, etc...and Boston College, Syracuse, Penn State, Rutgers...etc...always recruit upstate)...but the NYC-LI region is gaining traction over the past few years.

Not to hijack the thread...just a legit possibility that they may offer a "northern solution."

Ha! No worries....I like the direction this is heading.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not Tom Yeager or anything, but you both present what I think are very viable options. Nice sized state schools that can give access to a TV market, with reasonably nice sized wallets. You all have lax and care about investing in football programs.

You're in. The tribe (and I don't mean W&M) has spoken.

Not to mention, I might be able to catch G-men training camp up there!

[Observer2]

If State Line Liquors gives his "okay", then I consider this done. Welcome aboard!

[Seawolf97]

It is interesting how the CAA may change over the next couple of years. Hofstra, Northeastern drop football, URI may go to the NEC and maybe Villanova goes up to FBS. Room at the Inn now for SBU and Albany in the Northeast. By the way the pictures of Albany's new stadium are impressive. Also designed with expansion in mind similar to SBU -smart move for future seasons.

[BDKJMU]

How does a team that ranked about 50th in attendance averaging a little over 7k fans a game with no prospect of an on campus I-A stadium even contemplate moving up? Nuts

[Fact]

How does a team that ranked about 50th in attendance averaging a little over 7k fans a game with no prospect of an on campus I-A stadium even contemplate moving up? Nuts

A few ways

-Most Villanova fans have no connection with/natural opinion toward most of the CAA teams, so the attendance point is moot. The Big East on the other hand, has teams (and schools) that our fanbase genuinely dislike and would root against in badminton.

-Our blue chip sport will always be basketball, but football is more popular among the casual observer. If we can get 20,000 people to go to a game that starts at noon on a sunday at the CoreStates/First Union/Wachovia/Wells Fargo Center (facility limited,) then why wouldn't we be able to get the same number (or more) to see Villanova play against Big East foes like Pitt, WVU, Cuse, Rutgers and Louisville along with other games against schools where even the casual fan can recite the mascot.

-I would surmise that the on campus stadium situation has changed, especially with the tenuous financial/political climate in Radnor. If Radnor could make money off of it, they would allow Villanova to do it, especially if they were persuaded by the huge economic impact.

I guarantee that Villanova to the big east would work, even if we were an average fbs team.

[BDKJMU]

How does a team that ranked about 50th in attendance averaging a little over 7k fans a game with no prospect of an on campus I-A stadium even contemplate moving up? Nuts

A few ways

-Most Villanova fans have no connection with/natural opinion toward most of the CAA teams, so the attendance point is moot. The Big East on the other hand, has teams (and schools) that our fanbase genuinely dislike and would root against in badminton.

-Our blue chip sport will always be basketball, but football is more popular among the casual observer. If we can get 20,000 people to go to a game that starts at noon on a sunday at the CoreStates/First Union/Wachovia/Wells Fargo Center (facility limited,) then why wouldn't we be able to get the same number (or more) to see Villanova play against Big East foes like Pitt, WVU, Cuse, Rutgers and Louisville along with other games against schools where even the casual fan can recite the mascot.

Come on. Temple can't even avg 20k fans in an NFL stadium when they've got about 36k students and 250k alumni in the Philly area.

Nova would have 4 Big East home games a yr, and 2 OOC, usually a I-AA and a non BCS or non BCS power, as the BCS powers usually aren't going to come to a stadium that holds under 40k. The only way Nova would even avg 20k fans would be if the crowds avg at least half away fans. And 20k fans ISN'T acceptable for BCS. 66 BCS schools last season. You know how many avg less than 24k fans: ZERO. And only 3 avg less than 30k (Duke at 26,314; Wash St at 25,909,; and Northwestern at 24,190). And were only 6 in the 30s.
http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/fo ... e/2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Fact]

A few ways

-Most Villanova fans have no connection with/natural opinion toward most of the CAA teams, so the attendance point is moot. The Big East on the other hand, has teams (and schools) that our fanbase genuinely dislike and would root against in badminton.

-Our blue chip sport will always be basketball, but football is more popular among the casual observer. If we can get 20,000 people to go to a game that starts at noon on a sunday at the CoreStates/First Union/Wachovia/Wells Fargo Center (facility limited,) then why wouldn't we be able to get the same number (or more) to see Villanova play against Big East foes like Pitt, WVU, Cuse, Rutgers and Louisville along with other games against schools where even the casual fan can recite the mascot.

Come on. Temple can't even avg 20k fans in an NFL stadium when they've got about 36k students and 250k alumni in the Philly area.

Nova would have 4 Big East home games a yr, and 2 OOC, usually a I-AA and a non BCS or non BCS power, as the BCS powers usually aren't going to come to a stadium that holds under 40k. The only way Nova would even avg 20k fans would be if the crowds avg at least half away fans.

Temple is completely different, they can't draw fans to any sport...

[BDKJMU]

Come on. Temple can't even avg 20k fans in an NFL stadium when they've got about 36k students and 250k alumni in the Philly area.

Nova would have 4 Big East home games a yr, and 2 OOC, usually a I-AA and a non BCS or non BCS power, as the BCS powers usually aren't going to come to a stadium that holds under 40k. The only way Nova would even avg 20k fans would be if the crowds avg at least half away fans.

Temple is completely different, they can't draw fans to any sport...

See where I edited about avg 20k fans not being acceptable for BCS.

[Fact]

Temple is completely different, they can't draw fans to any sport...

See where I edited about avg 20k fans not being acceptable for BCS.

the rule is a 20,000 average over three seasons.. if you put a couple games where you're gonna get blown out (penn state) you have your issue solved, but believe me.. attendance is not the issue, we'd get plenty of people.

[BDKJMU]

How does a team that ranked about 50th in attendance averaging a little over 7k fans a game with no prospect of an on campus I-A stadium even contemplate moving up? Nuts

-I would surmise that the on campus stadium situation has changed, especially with the tenuous financial/political climate in Radnor. If Radnor could make money off of it, they would allow Villanova to do it, especially if they were persuaded by the huge economic impact.

I guarantee that Villanova to the big east would work, even if we were an average fbs team.

-Villanova's stadium seats 12.5k, and they have little room to expand. They are totally hemmed in on one side by Lancaster Pike/Route 30, which runs practically right up against the stadium.
http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/adm ... neast.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Even if Nova could expand it to the requisit for BCS 30k ish stadium, I just don't see very wealthy Radnor allowing it. Radnor won't even allow them to add seats for their basketball arena or expand their parking lots. You say if Radnor could make $ off of it? Well, how in the heck could Radnor do that?

3rd, even IF Nova could expand the stadium to 30k AND Radnor allowed it, where is a PRIVATE school like Nova (about 8k students) going to get the 80-100 million to do it? Nova's endowment of about 270 million isn't going to be able to pay for it.

As has already been discussed, the Linc ain't happening.

Playing in the hood in Chester isn't an option, as 18.5k PPL is too small for a BCS stadium. 66 BCS schools. Guess how many have a stadium that seats under 30k? ZERO.

Which again leaves Franklin Field, a relic which would still require Nova to pay 10s of millions to upgrade it to BCS standards in exchange for a long term lease.

Despite all this blather, I don't see any chance of Nova moving up to the Big East.

[BDKJMU]

See where I edited about avg 20k fans not being acceptable for BCS.

the rule is a 20,000 average over three seasons.. if you put a couple games where you're gonna get blown out (penn state) you have your issue solved, but believe me.. attendance is not the issue, we'd get plenty of people.

No, the rule for I-A is avg only 15k once every 3 seasons, which the NCAA doesn't even enforce. But avg 20k still isn't acceptable for BCS.

Penn State isn't going to come play in a 20 or 30k stadium.

[Big McLargehuge]

The thought of 20k in a crowd for a BCS team is downright hilarious. The Big East will go for a Memphis or ECU long before they'll accept those sorts of numbers, especially since Memphis would make the basketball (zzz) even stronger in the conference.


Nova isn't getting its stadium through public money, Pennsylvania was broke before Philadelphia and Pittsburgh got all of their new stadiums, now there's nothing in the coffers and I can't really imagine any private parties being willing to fund an entire stadium...and even if they did...the 20k number being thrown around here is just pathetic. We're not talking about a school trying to move into the MAC, we're talking about the Big East...it may be a weakling in in the BCS conferences but its still a BCS conference.


Louisville was the lowest attended school in the conference with an average of 32,450...by far their lowest number since joining the conference. That's far better than Villanova could even hope for in that market. Hell, for as little interested in the city of Pittsburgh as there is for Pitt football (its news, but they're behind the Steelers, Penguins, Pirates, Penn State football, and Pitt basketball there) they still average over 53k a game.



Aside from solidarity there is no reason for the Big East to realistically persue Villanova...but considering this is nothing but a matter of money a school like Memphis, who plays in a 60k+ football stadium and has a top level basketball program, instantly becomes insanely more intriguing...not to mention it expands the Big East's market.

[BlueHen86]

We can all sit here and prognosticate about what Nova will do, but it's really up to them.

So, Nova fans, all three of you (I think) on here, what is your plan for a venue?

Does it really matter where we beat Delaware??? The Main Line, The Tub, The Linc, Franklin Field, Chester. I would think where Delaware loses to VU would be less important to the Blue Hen way of thinking than how can the Blue Hens stay competitive in a game with Nova for more than a half.

Should Nova go FBS, you would have to assume the games would no longer be at the Tub, and the Blue Hen faithful would go anywhere they had to in order to cheer their favorite team on, if only for a half. One silver lining would be the game would no longer be held in the cold of Nov, but be around Labor Day weekend, where the weather plus the score would not be an excuse to leave at halftime.

If this were the smack board that might be a clever response.

[bluehenbillk]

Theoretically, 'Nova could move up. There are 2 major issues IMO.

One is the stadium, or lack thereof. There are really 2 options: 1 - You play at Franklin Field. 2- You wait until 2019 & hope that the Eagles & TU don't continue their lease agreement that ends in 2018 to play at the Linc.

The second issue is ticket sales & the perceived value of VU FB tickets. VU's announced attendance is poor by FCS standards, their PAID attendance is even worse. If you would count the # of students at games combined with families from the local communities that get papered with comps (Radnor, Lower Merion, Conestoga, surrounding Main Line areas) there aren't that many people paying in the upper teens as an average ticket price for FCS games. At least double that to an average ticket price of $40 or higher and how many more people in the Philly area are going to ante up to watch that??

One counter argument you'll hear some 'Nova fans throw out there is "we put 20,000 in the Wachovia Center multiple times a year for hoops", which is true. Philly-area sports fans are pretty saavy though. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize the Big East brand of hoops is at or near the tops in the country year after year. For football however, the Big East is consistently at the bottom of BCS leagues. Plus, VU has a rich hoops tradition, no arguments there. They do have a 1-A (FBS) football tradition too, how'd that work out the 1st time????

[rowdy]

IF both the big east and nova have plans on such a move the big east would more than likely add a couple incentives to make it work for both sides

[Fact]

I love how the only issue that ever comes up is attendance.. Total apples and oranges situation. Talking about Villanova Football attendance at it's current level is like talking about Delaware basketball attendance. I guarantee that if Delaware basketball was in the big east, they would sell out every game, but they aren't and they don't.

[GannonFan]

I love how the only issue that ever comes up is attendance.. Total apples and oranges situation. Talking about Villanova Football attendance at it's current level is like talking about Delaware basketball attendance. I guarantee that if Delaware basketball was in the big east, they would sell out every game, but they aren't and they don't.

Only issue? Seriously, read the whole thread - there are more issues than just attendance (and even then it's not even just looking at nova's attendance now - it's looking at the marketplace they would intend to play in). There's still the stadium issue (it's fine for Texas Southern to play in an MLS stadium, but it makes less sense for a proposed BCS team to play in one, especially one so far from campus). There's the money issue (nova is losing about $3M per year right now in a less costly level, and the Big East payout to conference teams is pretty small on the order of $2M per year - hard to see how nova's going to make a lot of money moving up and that was one reason why they killed the program before). And then there's the whole issue of whether or not even adding nova will save the Big East from descending into irrelavancy - they could add nova and still see 'Cuse and Rutgers and others leave the next time the superconference idea comes up. So that would put nova in the weird spot of going through the whole process of stepping up, only to be left at the altar.

Plenty more than just attendance to think about, although that still is a big deal.

[mcveyrl]

I love how the only issue that ever comes up is attendance.. Total apples and oranges situation. Talking about Villanova Football attendance at it's current level is like talking about Delaware basketball attendance. I guarantee that if Delaware basketball was in the big east, they would sell out every game, but they aren't and they don't.

So Georgetown wouldn't have a problem moving up either? Frankly, if I were the Big East, I'd love to get football in that market just as much as Philly.

[kemajic]

no fanbase,

No fanbase for FCS (aka small college) football; could be different for Big East football.

[Fact]

no fanbase,

No fanbase for FCS (aka small college) football; could be different for Big East football.

Finally someone who actually gets it..

[GannonFan]

No fanbase for FCS (aka small college) football; could be different for Big East football.

Finally someone who actually gets it..

Of course, it's someone from Montana so that puts it into a questionable light. nova's basketball crowds in Philly are not just "nova" crowds - it's a college basketball town and plenty of non-nova people make up those crowds. And they typically come when nova is very good, as they didn't sell out the Pavillion and had plenty of empty seats in the Wachovia when they weren't good. And when Big East football was being played in Philly before (under Temple) no one showed up, except for when Penn St played. So they aren't just going to show up because the names of Delaware, JMU, and Richmond are replaced with Syracuse, Rutgers, and Cincinnati. So, for it to succeed, nova needs to be a national football power, year in and year out. Do you think that's going to happen in a crumbling Big East and in a soccer stadium in Chester? That's not the typical recipe for becoming a football power.

[BDKJMU]

Finally someone who actually gets it..

Of course, it's someone from Montana so that puts it into a questionable light. nova's basketball crowds in Philly are not just "nova" crowds - it's a college basketball town and plenty of non-nova people make up those crowds. And they typically come when nova is very good, as they didn't sell out the Pavillion and had plenty of empty seats in the Wachovia when they weren't good. And when Big East football was being played in Philly before (under Temple) no one showed up, except for when Penn St played. So they aren't just going to show up because the names of Delaware, JMU, and Richmond are replaced with Syracuse, Rutgers, and Cincinnati. So, for it to succeed, nova needs to be a national football power, year in and year out. Do you think that's going to happen in a crumbling Big East and in a soccer stadium in Chester? That's not the typical recipe for becoming a football power.

But like I said before, all BCS stadiums seat at least 30k. Overwhelming majority are over 40k. Big East won't accept anything less than 30k. So playing in the hood in an 18k soccer stadium isn't going to happen. Again that just leaves the relic Franklin Field which would 1st require 10s of millions on renovations, which even if Nova could and would pay for, they'd never fill more than a fraction of even with the majority of the fans being from other schools.

Not a snow balls chance in hell the Big East offers Nova a spot, despite the delusionment of Fact or any other Nova fans who think it could happen.

[BlueHen86]

Of course, it's someone from Montana so that puts it into a questionable light. nova's basketball crowds in Philly are not just "nova" crowds - it's a college basketball town and plenty of non-nova people make up those crowds. And they typically come when nova is very good, as they didn't sell out the Pavillion and had plenty of empty seats in the Wachovia when they weren't good. And when Big East football was being played in Philly before (under Temple) no one showed up, except for when Penn St played. So they aren't just going to show up because the names of Delaware, JMU, and Richmond are replaced with Syracuse, Rutgers, and Cincinnati. So, for it to succeed, nova needs to be a national football power, year in and year out. Do you think that's going to happen in a crumbling Big East and in a soccer stadium in Chester? That's not the typical recipe for becoming a football power.

But like I said before, all BCS stadiums seat at least 30k. Overwhelming majority are over 40k. Big East won't accept anything less than 30k. So playing in the hood in an 18k soccer stadium isn't going to happen. Again that just leaves the relic Franklin Field which would 1st require 10s of millions on renovations, which even if Nova could and would pay for, they'd never fill more than a fraction of even with the majority of the fans being from other schools.

Not a snow balls chance in hell the Big East offers Nova a spot, despite the delusionment of Fact or any other Nova fans who think it could happen.

The soccer stadium isn't in "the hood", it's on the waterfront. The area was industrial, but it's being revitalized, there is a Harrah's casino just up the road.

[bluehenbillk]

86, Harrah's is on the North end of Chester, by Eddystone. The soccer stadium is on the South end by the bridge. They're both on the "wrong side" of 95.

You can say what you want about VU's attendance or lack thereof, but where they goin to play?? Unless it's built, they ain't coming.