Intelligent Design/Creationism/Religion

[native]

This is what it comes down to for me.

I don't care what anyone believes, or why they do, or how, but intelligent design has no place in the public schools. If you want to pay for your kid to go to a private Christian school where they're taught that bullshit, by all means go ahead.

+2

Christians are quite correct to worry about and oppose the overbearing and unjustified influence of virulent anti-religionists in the mainstream academia, but "intelligent design" may not be the best place tactically to take a stand.

[SeattleGriz]

Believing a power that we don't understand had a role in the creation of the universe isn't that wacky.

Believing the earth is 6,000 years old and that Genesis is literal Truth... is pretty fucking wacky.

The 6,000 year old belief is pretty far from mainstream Christian thought. It has it's basis is in trying to work the math backward from the Bible.

[death dealer]

Again, my original post doesn't even deny the existence of a god necessarily. All I'm saying is that if he does exist, he's a mean motherfucker, with a sadistic sense of humor.

If you had a child, and kept the child in a hermetically sealed chamber free from all disease and physical dangers, and fed the child perfect organic food and stimulated the child with nothing but wondefull pleasant sights and sounds, free from the attentions of bullies and evil people, would you then be a great and benevolent father, DD?

Since you do have children and you did let them burn their fingers and stub their toes, does that make you a mean mf with a sadistic sense of humor?

Not really an adequate analogy Native. Knowing that the world is an inhospitable place, of course I want my children to be able to deal with the challenges of living in it. The difference is i didn't create the world they live in. I have no control over it. This supposed God did. Not the same.

[SeattleGriz]

+2

Christians are quite correct to worry about and oppose the overbearing and unjustified influence of virulent anti-religionists in the mainstream academia, but "intelligent design" may not be the best place tactically to take a stand.

The sad part Native, is that if you were to propose that the Intelligent Designer was actually aliens that "seeded" the Earth, all of a sudden, it would be all okay by many that despise Christianity.

[kalm]

Believing a power that we don't understand had a role in the creation of the universe isn't that wacky.

Believing the earth is 6,000 years old and that Genesis is literal Truth... is pretty **** wacky.

The 6,000 year old belief is pretty far from mainstream Christian thought. It has it's basis is in trying to work the math backward from the Bible.

One was president a couple of years ago, and one was a VP candidate during the last election.

Don't even get started about what the next Conk presidential nominee believes.

[Grizalltheway]

+2

Christians are quite correct to worry about and oppose the overbearing and unjustified influence of virulent anti-religionists in the mainstream academia, but "intelligent design" may not be the best place tactically to take a stand.

Yeah, those poor, persecuted white Christians. You guys have had it really rough in our country's history.

[SeattleGriz]

The 6,000 year old belief is pretty far from mainstream Christian thought. It has it's basis is in trying to work the math backward from the Bible.

One was president a couple of years ago, and one was a VP candidate during the last election.

Don't even get started about what the next Conk presidential nominee believes.

Can you provide me names so I may look that up? That sounds an awful lot like the "all Republican Presidents are idiots and Democrats are geniuses" line.

[kalm]

One was president a couple of years ago, and one was a VP candidate during the last election.

Don't even get started about what the next Conk presidential nominee believes.

Can you provide me names so I may look that up? That sounds an awful lot like the "all Republican Presidents are idiots and Democrats are geniuses" line.

Bush, Palin, and Romney of course.

But don't get me wrong, the Democratic Presidents and nominees are idiots in their own right.

[UNHWildCats]

So what is your explanation for how the universe began? The Big Bang? So, there was nothing then all of a sudden there was a Big Bang? Are you going to resort to that singularity "timeless dimensionless point" thing?

I think I've seen variations of your statement on engineering. But please elaborate. Let me know when humankind is capable of designing and building something like our solar system much less an entire universe. Let me know when human beings are able to design and consruct something like a human being.

They can't. If it's so easy and so "bad," why can't we do it?

The evidence suggesting that there is some intelligence behind what we see around us is all around you. Take your blinders off.

Yes, the big bang is my explanation. I don't know if God is responsible for the Big Bang or not, but I think the universe was started by the big bang.

What is your explanation? God talking to himself in the dark?

you're one funny mother fucker!

[native]

Christians are quite correct to worry about and oppose the overbearing and unjustified influence of virulent anti-religionists in the mainstream academia, but "intelligent design" may not be the best place tactically to take a stand.

The sad part Native, is that if you were to propose that the Intelligent Designer was actually aliens that "seeded" the Earth, all of a sudden, it would be all okay by many that despise Christianity.

[houndawg]

These guys preach "tolerance" of all things except Christianity, conveniently forgetting that NO worldview is truly tolerant of other worldviews. ALL are exclusive.

Relativism doesn't hold water, either. So you can do whatever you want so long as you don't harm others? Who's to say what harms another? Theory self-defeated.

What gets really frustrating here or anywhere is the anti-Christian crowd that immediately goes ad hominem instead of providing true arguments that can either be verified or refuted. Clearly, that does NOT apply to everyone around here, but it does happen quite a bit. The whole "Christians never think" schtick comes off just as arrogantly (if not more so) as the Westboro-ites. There ARE Christians who can make a good case, and in most cases, I'll admit they make a better case than I do. (native is a case in point. I can't compete with him in terms of making a case for Christianity, and I'm very grateful for his presence here.)

Just give us a true argument that we can latch on to one way or another. Please.

Speaking of providing "true arguments", how about the Theory of Creationism? Would you state it for us, please?


Ever the persecuted victims, those christians.

What certain christians continually miss in their zeal to play the victim is that nobody cares what they believe and nobody has a beef with with their belief system - until those certain christians start trying to force their beliefs upon those who aren't interested, which they seem to be as unable to resist as the sun is unable to resist coming up in the east. These 1%ers that ruin it for everybody.

You want to believe that virgins have babies? You got a right.

You want to believe that people can walk on water? It's a free country.

You want to believe that dead people come back to life, leave their tomb, and fly up into the sky? Whatever floats your ark. Hell, I'm from California, christianity is far from the weirdest religion I've known friends and neighbors to adhere to.

The problem is the relentlessness with which these 1%ers attempt to force their beliefs on any captive audience they can find, such as the schools my taxes pay for. Demanding that some so-called Theory of Creationism be taught along side real science in science classes. Insisting that the United States are a "christian nation" in spite of Congress stating, verbatim, that "the United States are in no sense a christian nation". Why can't they be like the 99% that mind their own business?

[kalm]

You want to believe that dead people come back to life, leave their tomb, and fly up into the sky? Whatever floats your ark.

"If the story of the ascension is true, and Jesus was traveling at the speed of light, he still hasn't left our galaxy."

Carl Sagan

A perfect example of combining faith with science.

[houndawg]

You want to believe that dead people come back to life, leave their tomb, and fly up into the sky? Whatever floats your ark.

"If the story of the ascension is true, and Jesus was traveling at the speed of light, he still hasn't left our galaxy."

Carl Sagan

A perfect example of combining faith with science.

Since he ascended bodily, he can't travel at light speed because he still has mass, although if he is traveling close to light speed, he is much shorter and fatter now, from our viewpoint, than most of his pics, and for him not as much time has passed as for us.

Since Jesus left before Einstein was born and didn't get a chance to bone up on Relativity, imagine how disappointed he would be if he returned to find that on his home world thousands of years had passed while he was still a fairly young man. He'd be all happy when he got here, looking around for Peter and Paul and Mary and the whole gang only to find that they are dust.

[∞∞∞]

God could be real; it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility. I might be able to believe that it is an all knowing and powerful entity relating to this universe.

The problem is that we're finite beings and that's how we think, so much of this is truly incomprehensible. The way we think, everything starts and ends somewhere. The answer to life's most mysterious question likely falls outside of physics and religion, and probably relates in some way to the characters in my username.

[AZGrizFan]

I'd rather be sitting on a river bank, holding a fishing pole, thinking about God, than sitting in a church thinking about fishing.

[kalm]

I'd rather be sitting on a river bank, holding a fishing pole, thinking about God, than sitting in a church thinking about fishing.

[death dealer]

Christians are quite correct to worry about and oppose the overbearing and unjustified influence of virulent anti-religionists in the mainstream academia, but "intelligent design" may not be the best place tactically to take a stand.

The sad part Native, is that if you were to propose that the Intelligent Designer was actually aliens that "seeded" the Earth, all of a sudden, it would be all okay by many that despise Christianity.

Now, that would make a great sci-fi movie, but is improbable. However, the possibility that some of the building blocks of life hitched a ride on a comet or asteroid as it crashed into earth is not out of the realm of possibility.

I could get behind the whole clock maker theory. The notion that reality is a construct of some greater intelligence that set it in motion as some sort of experiment or just because it could and then let it run it's course is not something that I can either support or not support. I just don't have a way to refute that this is a possible answer to the time/space continuum that we live in. However, the notion that there is a being who actively participates in the daily activities of life on Earth, and who actually micro-manages the very seconds of all reality down to the hairs on my head? Well that's just not something that is in any way supported by any evidence whatsoever.

I'm not arguing against someone believing in it. That's none of my business. I think someone else used this quote, and I'm not sure who to attribute it to, but ist's been said that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

[death dealer]

These guys preach "tolerance" of all things except Christianity, conveniently forgetting that NO worldview is truly tolerant of other worldviews. ALL are exclusive.

Relativism doesn't hold water, either. So you can do whatever you want so long as you don't harm others? Who's to say what harms another? Theory self-defeated.

What gets really frustrating here or anywhere is the anti-Christian crowd that immediately goes ad hominem instead of providing true arguments that can either be verified or refuted. Clearly, that does NOT apply to everyone around here, but it does happen quite a bit. The whole "Christians never think" schtick comes off just as arrogantly (if not more so) as the Westboro-ites. There ARE Christians who can make a good case, and in most cases, I'll admit they make a better case than I do. (native is a case in point. I can't compete with him in terms of making a case for Christianity, and I'm very grateful for his presence here.)

Just give us a true argument that we can latch on to one way or another. Please.

Speaking of providing "true arguments", how about the Theory of Creationism? Would you state it for us, please?


Ever the persecuted victims, those christians.

What certain christians continually miss in their zeal to play the victim is that nobody cares what they believe and nobody has a beef with with their belief system - until those certain christians start trying to force their beliefs upon those who aren't interested, which they seem to be as unable to resist as the sun is unable to resist coming up in the east. These 1%ers that ruin it for everybody.

You want to believe that virgins have babies? You got a right.

You want to believe that people can walk on water? It's a free country.

You want to believe that dead people come back to life, leave their tomb, and fly up into the sky? Whatever floats your ark. Hell, I'm from California, christianity is far from the weirdest religion I've known friends and neighbors to adhere to.

The problem is the relentlessness with which these 1%ers attempt to force their beliefs on any captive audience they can find, such as the schools my taxes pay for. Demanding that some so-called Theory of Creationism be taught along side real science in science classes. Insisting that the United States are a "christian nation" in spite of Congress stating, verbatim, that "the United States are in no sense a christian nation". Why can't they be like the 99% that mind their own business?

Good Post Dawg!

[89Hen]

Quite to the contrary, it puts all the impetus on me. There is no God to fall back on, so I'd better be doing it right from the start.

An odd statement IMO.

[Cap'n Cat]

I assume that most proponents of Intelligent Design/Creationism would categorize the Designer/God as a benevolent being. Are they f u c king kidding? Really? There is absolutely no evidence other than the occasional anecdotal personal account to indicate that if there is a God, which there isn't, that he is anything other than one mean motherf u c king POS with a really sick sense of humor. And based on his design work on the planet and the universe, he would have failed out of most decent engineering programs in the first year.

Your provocative and uncharacteristically hateful logic is puzzling, DD.

We are born. We die. Perhaps the benevolence of existence or lack thereof results not from a benevolent or
malevolent God, but from what we ourselves make of the blessings and gifts of life. When a drunk kills an innocent is that the fault of the automotive designer?

The engineering classes you celebrate as superior to God's intelligent design are only part of our latest inadequate
attempts to describe a powerful and orderly universe. How can you see a "failed" engineering design in the universe?

To me, there pretty clearly appears to be order. Physics works in our observable environment. The planets move, the rains fall, life finds a way. Engineering classes are only part of our latest inadequate human attempts to describe a powerful and orderly universe, greater in scope than what the frail human mind can comprehend.

But strive we must to comprehend! When not otherwise occupied in raping and killing each other, humans have spent a considerable portion of their existence pondering the nature of the universe. To wonder and try to comprehend is part of the joy and glory of being human, and we can be glorious indeed! But Big Bang, Intelligent Design, and String Teory aside, do you really think we have done more than scratch the surface in our knowledge of the universe?

We limit ourselves unnecessarily when we look only in the mirror. But that's the essential problem with the
arguments of believers and non-believers alike. We look at ourselves in the mirrow, find what we see to be
inadequate, and blame God. Just because I cannot possibly understand something fully does that mean that I should
not strive to understand? Does it mean that I must confine my understanding to the image I see in the mirror? Does it preclude the possibility of God?

I love math, debates and science projects, but faith is a choice, not a science experiment. Whether you believe in
God, yourself, or nothing, you have chosen to believe something. One of the central truths of the Judeo-Christian
tradition is that when we humans fail to recognize some power greater than ourselves, we tend towards evil. This has been consistently true, at least for the latest 10,000 years of human existence on earth that we know about. We fvck up a great deal more without God than with God.

You may disparage God and Christians all you want, but there is more useless fear and hopelessness in atheism and
atheists than among believers. The response to this thread by all you ardent and committed atheists, although not
surprising, is unnecessarily hateful and limiting. We humans are defined by what we believe. In your near-sighted hubris, you have defined humans hatefully and hopelessly.

There is another choice. I prefer an approach that does not laughably and tragically establish mankind as the limit
to the universe. I vote with Moses, C.S. Lewis, and Hub McCann, and a host of others who have chosen to see the
order, blessings and hopefulness of the universe without hating either God or mankind.

[Cap'n Cat]

Quite to the contrary, it puts all the impetus on me. There is no God to fall back on, so I'd better be doing it right from the start.

An odd statement IMO.

Posted, of course, by someone who can't counter it.

[D1B]

One was president a couple of years ago, and one was a VP candidate during the last election.

Don't even get started about what the next Conk presidential nominee believes.

Can you provide me names so I may look that up? That sounds an awful lot like the "all Republican Presidents are idiots and Democrats are geniuses" line.

Fuck you Dipshit. You look it up, jesus fuck.

It's true. Most Conks are fucking hardcore christians and most donks at least keep that shit to themselves. T

his is a revelation to you?

[89Hen]

An odd statement IMO.

Posted, of course, by someone who can't counter it.

Hey, congrats! Your first post to a Christian where you didn't call them a Fuck.

[89Hen]

It's true. Most Conks are fucking hardcore christians and most donks at least keep that shit to themselves.

[Cap'n Cat]

Posted, of course, by someone who can't counter it.

Hey, congrats! Your first post to a Christian where you didn't call them a Fuck.

I don't think you're a fvck, Hen, that's why. You're a sharp guy, just misguided.