Carlos Gonzalez

[GannonFan]

Gonzalez is batting .394 with 25 HR and 66 RBI at Coors field. You can have him, good player, but on any other team he's a .280 hitter with 15-20 HR's and 80 RBI.

If Coors Field has that much of an effect, let's just give Ubaldo Jimenez the Cy Young right now.

Problem is, Ubaldo gets a lot of run support at home that has fed into his W/L totals - even though his ERA is inflated due to pitching at Coors Field (actually 3.35 at home and 2.30 on the road) he is still helped by the Rockies offense being so much more prolific at home.

Gil's right - Gonzalez is a product of Coors Field - heck, people don't even pitch around him on the road, as evidenced by his low number of walks on the road. He's the Dante Bichette of today - if he didn't play for the Rockies in that park, no one would know who he was.

[clenz]

And Delmon is playing in a park that doesn't give up HR.

[free7694]

If Coors Field has that much of an effect, let's just give Ubaldo Jimenez the Cy Young right now.

It's not "IF", Coors Field "DOES" have that much of an affect. Look at Gonzalez stats on the road.

Ok, then Ubaldo should win the Cy Young handily.

[free7694]

If Coors Field has that much of an effect, let's just give Ubaldo Jimenez the Cy Young right now.

Problem is, Ubaldo gets a lot of run support at home that has fed into his W/L totals - even though his ERA is inflated due to pitching at Coors Field (actually 3.35 at home and 2.30 on the road) he is still helped by the Rockies offense being so much more prolific at home.

Gil's right - Gonzalez is a product of Coors Field - heck, people don't even pitch around him on the road, as evidenced by his low number of walks on the road. He's the Dante Bichette of today - if he didn't play for the Rockies in that park, no one would know who he was.

If it's SO easy to hit at Coors, then why are Gonzalez' numbers there so much better than everybody else's?

When he was with Arizona, he was the top prospect in their system, ahead of guys like Chris Young, Brett Anderson and Stephen Drew. Saying he'd be no good if he didn't play in Colorado is insane.

[ToTheLeft]

If Coors Field has that much of an effect, let's just give Ubaldo Jimenez the Cy Young right now.

Problem is, Ubaldo gets a lot of run support at home that has fed into his W/L totals - even though his ERA is inflated due to pitching at Coors Field (actually 3.35 at home and 2.30 on the road) he is still helped by the Rockies offense being so much more prolific at home.

Gil's right - Gonzalez is a product of Coors Field - heck, people don't even pitch around him on the road, as evidenced by his low number of walks on the road. He's the Dante Bichette of today - if he didn't play for the Rockies in that park, no one would know who he was.

Actually, he just doesn't walk. No plate vision.

[Gil Dobie]

Problem is, Ubaldo gets a lot of run support at home that has fed into his W/L totals - even though his ERA is inflated due to pitching at Coors Field (actually 3.35 at home and 2.30 on the road) he is still helped by the Rockies offense being so much more prolific at home.

Gil's right - Gonzalez is a product of Coors Field - heck, people don't even pitch around him on the road, as evidenced by his low number of walks on the road. He's the Dante Bichette of today - if he didn't play for the Rockies in that park, no one would know who he was.

If it's SO easy to hit at Coors, then why are Gonzalez' numbers there so much better than everybody else's?

When he was with Arizona, he was the top prospect in their system, ahead of guys like Chris Young, Brett Anderson and Stephen Drew. Saying he'd be no good if he didn't play in Colorado is insane.

15-20 HR's and 80 RBI isn't exactly "no good", he is a good player with inflated stats due to Coors Field.

It takes a while to get use to the altitude, if Albert Pujols played there every game, most records would be out of reach.

[MrTitleist]

Just saw this thread...

Clenz, you're obviously mildly retarded.

However, there's a nice double standard going on in this thread that I'd like to address. One guy said Carlos is a "good" player because he plays at Coors, therefore his #s are inflated. Another guy says Ubaldo shouldn't win the CY Young because he gets too much run support. It's either one or the other.. you either reward CarGo for a great season of hitting, or you reward Ubaldo because he pitches at Coors.. you can't have this stupid double standard. Tracy Ringolsby from the Denver Post hit on this a few days ago about how Chipper Jones says CarGo's numbers are inflated because of Coors because of his splits home/away. But yet, Chipper conveniently left out his own splits between home and away when he won batting title. The double standard is really annoying.. Ubaldo gets no respect because of whatever people say about Coors, and the same for CarGo.

Regardless, I don't even think CarGo is the Rockies' best player. He's hot as shit right now, don't get me wrong, but Troy Tulowitzki is Colorado's best player. A power hitting SS is a rarity, and someone with a glove like Tulo's is even more rare.. had he not been on the DL twice this year he'd easily be an MVP and Gold Glove candidate.. he may even still win the GG, but probably out of the MVP race. Anyone who says they wouldn't want Tulo on their team line up.. I'm punching people in the throat.

[clenz]

Dude I'm a fucking Rockies fan. Tulo is great. Carlos is a good player who stats are inflated at home. I believe ubaldo should win they Cy Young.



Call me retarded if you wish, I'm not blinded by pure homerism with Carlos

[Jibjab]

Gonzalez is batting .394 with 25 HR and 66 RBI at Coors field. You can have him, good player, but on any other team he's a .280 hitter with 15-20 HR's and 80 RBI.

You're an idiot. Cargo has been a top prospect ever since he arrived in the league. Playing at Coors or not, he would still be tearing it up. To everyone saying "oh his stats are inflated because of Coors", little news flash for ya, EVERYBODY plays better at home.

Cargo is one of the best, true 5 tool player, hits for average as well as power. Good arm, speed, and great glove. Some of you sound like you haven't even watched him play.

LOL @ oh he plays at coors field. Does the ball fly at coors? Yes, but Coors has one of the biggest outfields in the majors. If you know anything about baseball, you know that if you can hit you can hit, doesn't matter where you play.

Let the haters hate.

[Gil Dobie]

Gonzalez is batting .394 with 25 HR and 66 RBI at Coors field. You can have him, good player, but on any other team he's a .280 hitter with 15-20 HR's and 80 RBI.

You're an idiot. Cargo has been a top prospect ever since he arrived in the league. Playing at Coors or not, he would still be tearing it up. To everyone saying "oh his stats are inflated because of Coors", little news flash for ya, EVERYBODY plays better at home.

Cargo is one of the best, true 5 tool player, hits for average as well as power. Good arm, speed, and great glove. Some of you sound like you haven't even watched him play.

LOL @ oh he plays at coors field. Does the ball fly at coors? Yes, but Coors has one of the biggest outfields in the majors. If you know anything about baseball, you know that if you can hit you can hit, doesn't matter where you play.

Let the haters hate.

So I'm an idiot because I don't agree with you. Never said I hated him either. He is not a top 5 player in either league. I've been watching baseball since 1967, and I know inflated stats when I see them. I saw him play in person in
San Francisco a couple weeks ago. Like I said before a good player, and as others have stated rightfully, inflated stats. Maybe in a few years, if he keeps it up and doesn't get hurt, he'll be a top 5 player, but not today, and not this year.

[clenz]

I thought I'd look up the stadium numbers from this year to see if Coors really has any affect on offenses. I'll also compare them to Target Field since Delmon, Cuddy, and the rest of the Twins were the most discussed. I'll use the Park Factor

Park Factor compares the rate of stats at home vs. the rate of stats on the road. A rate higher than 1.000 favors the hitter. Below 1.000 favors the pitcher.

1. Coors Field - 1.405 runs
2. Yankee Stadium - 1.192 runs
3 Wrigley - 1.132
4. US Cellular - 1.101
14. Target Field 1.004

Seems like runs are pretty easy to come by at Coors compared to the rest.

Home runs - what do you know, Coors is also having the most HR hit per game by a pretty good margin as well

1. Coors Field 1.495
2. US Cellular 1.482
3. Yankee Stadium 1.459
30. Target Field 0.624 (Yep, that's last...)


Hits
1. Coors Field - 1.251
2. Wrigley - 1.089
3. Rangers Ballpark - 1.080
4. Oriole Park - 1.072
12. Target Field - 1.022

Seems as though Target field is much harder to get a hit at compared to Coors

Doubles - this the Twins and Rockies are pretty close at. Target Field has HUGE gaps

1 Coors Field - 1.294
2 Fenway Park - 1.216
3 Target Field - 1.122


Now looking at these numbers are you really going to say that Coors doesn't help Carlos? Put him in Target Field which is hard as hell to hit in. The Twins have said it screwed with the players minds the first half of of the season, and opposing players have said that as well.

Delmon Young has a .300 average with 17 HR and 100 RBI's playing in Target Field.


However, those numbers also make what Ubaldo does all that much more impressive.


In case you want to check my numbers
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jibjab]

You're an idiot. Cargo has been a top prospect ever since he arrived in the league. Playing at Coors or not, he would still be tearing it up. To everyone saying "oh his stats are inflated because of Coors", little news flash for ya, EVERYBODY plays better at home.

Cargo is one of the best, true 5 tool player, hits for average as well as power. Good arm, speed, and great glove. Some of you sound like you haven't even watched him play.

LOL @ oh he plays at coors field. Does the ball fly at coors? Yes, but Coors has one of the biggest outfields in the majors. If you know anything about baseball, you know that if you can hit you can hit, doesn't matter where you play.

Let the haters hate.

So I'm an idiot because I don't agree with you. Never said I hated him either. He is not a top 5 player in either league. I've been watching baseball since 1967, and I know inflated stats when I see them. I saw him play in person in
San Francisco a couple weeks ago. Like I said before a good player, and as others have stated rightfully, inflated stats. Maybe in a few years, if he keeps it up and doesn't get hurt, he'll be a top 5 player, but not today, and not this year.

I watch him play day in and day out, and on just watching him play alone, he's easily one of the better players in the league. Say what you want about Coors, but you still have to make the bat meet the ball. Which he obviously does better than a lot of players in the league.

Cargo for just the month of August till today is batting .369 on 17 road games. He's batting .411 at home in 23 home games. 42 point difference, thats some hella inflation, the stat guy needs to come up with a better formula.

Watching baseball since 67 huh? Sounds like you need to watch more, because you still don't know shit.

[Gil Dobie]

So I'm an idiot because I don't agree with you. Never said I hated him either. He is not a top 5 player in either league. I've been watching baseball since 1967, and I know inflated stats when I see them. I saw him play in person in
San Francisco a couple weeks ago. Like I said before a good player, and as others have stated rightfully, inflated stats. Maybe in a few years, if he keeps it up and doesn't get hurt, he'll be a top 5 player, but not today, and not this year.

I watch him play day in and day out, and on just watching him play alone, he's easily one of the better players in the league. Say what you want about Coors, but you still have to make the bat meet the ball. Which he obviously does better than a lot of players in the league.

Cargo for just the month of August till today is batting .369 on 17 road games. He's batting .411 at home in 23 home games. 42 point difference, thats some hella inflation, the stat guy needs to come up with a better formula.

Watching baseball since 67 huh? Sounds like you need to watch more, because you still don't know ****.

What did I say that wasn't true? You are telling me he is good, I am telling you he is good, we just disagree on how good.

[ToTheLeft]

Again, if you look at the stats...

His Home Run to Fly Ball ratio is higher than it's ever been in his career, and is on the top end of what is considered "normal" for a power hitter not named Ryan Howard.

His BABIP (batting average on balls in play) is a good 50 points higher than where it has been. He could sustain this, but I think it will probably regress back to earth at some point, as his ZIPS projection predicts, and he'll be a .308/.357/.519 guy rather than a .341/.378/.612 guy. Not to mention his plate patience isn't very good, he is swinging at more pitches outside the strike zone this year than he has ever before in his career, he's just making a lot of contact.

Sorry for being "that guy" who uses the SABR stats, but they really do tell you the whole story behind a situation like this. The park factors and an insanely high BABIP and HR/FB set up perfectly for a kid to have a monster year. And he's a good player, I'm just not going to take him instead of or before most of the other good young outfielders in baseball because his ridiculous numbers are a bit of a mirage.

[ToTheLeft]

Very good article written a short while back that sorta reinforces clenz's point...

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... e-of-runs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jibjab]

Again, if you look at the stats...

His Home Run to Fly Ball ratio is higher than it's ever been in his career, and is on the top end of what is considered "normal" for a power hitter not named Ryan Howard.

His BABIP (batting average on balls in play) is a good 50 points higher than where it has been. He could sustain this, but I think it will probably regress back to earth at some point, as his ZIPS projection predicts, and he'll be a .308/.357/.519 guy rather than a .341/.378/.612 guy. Not to mention his plate patience isn't very good, he is swinging at more pitches outside the strike zone this year than he has ever before in his career, he's just making a lot of contact.

Sorry for being "that guy" who uses the SABR stats, but they really do tell you the whole story behind a situation like this. The park factors and an insanely high BABIP and HR/FB set up perfectly for a kid to have a monster year. And he's a good player, I'm just not going to take him instead of or before most of the other good young outfielders in baseball because his ridiculous numbers are a bit of a mirage.

Cargo has great plate coverage, which is another reason why he's good. He has a little bit of a long swing, but at the same time he can get the bat through the zone quick enough to hit 90+ mph fast balls. Having a long swing allows him to hit balls that are outta the strike zone, that other players might not get to. As well as get good wood on balls that he might been fooled because his bat stays through the zone longer. Another reason sometimes why these stats don't mean much. I'd take Cargo over most any day, shit I'd take Fowler over most any day. People just don't know. This kid is good, he's only 24, Rox have 3 guys that have to potential to be all time greats. Come at me.

[ToTheLeft]

Again, if you look at the stats...

His Home Run to Fly Ball ratio is higher than it's ever been in his career, and is on the top end of what is considered "normal" for a power hitter not named Ryan Howard.

His BABIP (batting average on balls in play) is a good 50 points higher than where it has been. He could sustain this, but I think it will probably regress back to earth at some point, as his ZIPS projection predicts, and he'll be a .308/.357/.519 guy rather than a .341/.378/.612 guy. Not to mention his plate patience isn't very good, he is swinging at more pitches outside the strike zone this year than he has ever before in his career, he's just making a lot of contact.

Sorry for being "that guy" who uses the SABR stats, but they really do tell you the whole story behind a situation like this. The park factors and an insanely high BABIP and HR/FB set up perfectly for a kid to have a monster year. And he's a good player, I'm just not going to take him instead of or before most of the other good young outfielders in baseball because his ridiculous numbers are a bit of a mirage.

Cargo has great plate coverage, which is another reason why he's good. He has a little bit of a long swing, but at the same time he can get the bat through the zone quick enough to hit 90+ mph fast balls. Having a long swing allows him to hit balls that are outta the strike zone, that other players might not get to. As well as get good wood on balls that he might been fooled because his bat stays through the zone longer. Another reason sometimes why these stats don't mean much. I'd take Cargo over most any day, shit I'd take Fowler over most any day. People just don't know. This kid is good, he's only 24, Rox have 3 guys that have to potential to be all time greats. Come at me.

So you admit to being a homer? Dexter Fowler isn't even in the same conversation as CarGo and other top level outfielders.

If we're breaking it down to how many runs and wins a guy adds to his team, which is really what this is all about, I'd take the following guys ahead of CarGo:

1. Josh Hamilton
2. Carl Crawford
3. Matt Holliday
4. Brett Gardner
5. Shin-Shoo Choo
6. Jason Heyward

And that's just outfielders.

If we're talking any position, add in Longoria, Cano, Votto, Zimmerman, Pujols, and even Tulowitzki. And that's just position players, since it's apples and oranges a bit to compare pitchers here.

CarGo is going through the same kind of season Ben Zobrist had last year. Inflated numbers that just aren't sustainable. He's a good player, but don't expect him to be a triple crown candidate every year. And as the article I posted said, you have to consider the difference between 70 RBI's at Coors and 70 RBI's in San Diego. I'd take Adrian Gonzalez creating 70 runs in that terrible hitters park before I take CarGo creating 70 runs in a field where those runs don't mean as much.

And as for Dexter Fowler...

You'd have an easier time trying to convince me that Seth Smith is worth having on my team. Fowler's defense is below replacement level. Matt Joyce has no arm strength left after a shoulder injury, and he is MILES ahead in terms of defense compared to Fowler. Matt Joyce is in fact a much better player, and he's the 3rd/4th OF for the Rays, behind Crawford (who anyone who looks objectively at the situation would take ahead of both CarGo and Folwer (and Smith)), Zobrist (Who I would take over any of them due to his brilliant defense wherever he plays and his solid bat, but that's me being a homer because he's not quite as good as CarGo, but is better than Smith and Folwer), and Upton (who sucks and is a bit overrated, but I still would take him over Folwer for the added power and run creating ability.)

Folwer and Smith at this point in their careers are replacement level players. Sure you can talk about "upside" but Fowler in particular has been up long enough to have shown that he's better than Drew Stubbs, Jeff Keppinger, and Kevin Kouzmanoff. Because right now, neither of them are better than those guys I just listed.

[Jibjab]

Cargo has great plate coverage, which is another reason why he's good. He has a little bit of a long swing, but at the same time he can get the bat through the zone quick enough to hit 90+ mph fast balls. Having a long swing allows him to hit balls that are outta the strike zone, that other players might not get to. As well as get good wood on balls that he might been fooled because his bat stays through the zone longer. Another reason sometimes why these stats don't mean much. I'd take Cargo over most any day, **** I'd take Fowler over most any day. People just don't know. This kid is good, he's only 24, Rox have 3 guys that have to potential to be all time greats. Come at me.

So you admit to being a homer? Dexter Fowler isn't even in the same conversation as CarGo and other top level outfielders.

If we're breaking it down to how many runs and wins a guy adds to his team, which is really what this is all about, I'd take the following guys ahead of CarGo:

1. Josh Hamilton
2. Carl Crawford
3. Matt Holliday
4. Brett Gardner
5. Shin-Shoo Choo
6. Jason Heyward

And that's just outfielders.

If we're talking any position, add in Longoria, Cano, Votto, Zimmerman, Pujols, and even Tulowitzki. And that's just position players, since it's apples and oranges a bit to compare pitchers here.

CarGo is going through the same kind of season Ben Zobrist had last year. Inflated numbers that just aren't sustainable. He's a good player, but don't expect him to be a triple crown candidate every year. And as the article I posted said, you have to consider the difference between 70 RBI's at Coors and 70 RBI's in San Diego. I'd take Adrian Gonzalez creating 70 runs in that terrible hitters park before I take CarGo creating 70 runs in a field where those runs don't mean as much.

And as for Dexter Fowler...

You'd have an easier time trying to convince me that Seth Smith is worth having on my team. Fowler's defense is below replacement level. Matt Joyce has no arm strength left after a shoulder injury, and he is MILES ahead in terms of defense compared to Fowler. Matt Joyce is in fact a much better player, and he's the 3rd/4th OF for the Rays, behind Crawford (who anyone who looks objectively at the situation would take ahead of both CarGo and Folwer (and Smith)), Zobrist (Who I would take over any of them due to his brilliant defense wherever he plays and his solid bat, but that's me being a homer because he's not quite as good as CarGo, but is better than Smith and Folwer), and Upton (who sucks and is a bit overrated, but I still would take him over Folwer for the added power and run creating ability.)

Folwer and Smith at this point in their careers are replacement level players. Sure you can talk about "upside" but Fowler in particular has been up long enough to have shown that he's better than Drew Stubbs, Jeff Keppinger, and Kevin Kouzmanoff. Because right now, neither of them are better than those guys I just listed.

See you're missing the whole point of my argument. We're talk ALL AROUND player, 5 tools. Hamilton? All he can do is hit. Crawford? On the same level as Cargo, maybe better because he has more years in the league. Holliday? Really? All he can do is hit. Gardener and Choo? No. Heyward? Maybe. Cargo was involved in Holliday trade, might tell you something about how people felt about Cargo back then.

As for Fowler I said that based on defense alone, the guy has top notch speed and great glove. He can cover ground like no other, and has robbed 3 or 4 home runs. Do you even watch the Rockies? Lol @ Folwer and Smitch being replacement players. You're just a stats guy, you probably never even stepped onto a baseball field.

[free7694]

Again, if you look at the stats...

His Home Run to Fly Ball ratio is higher than it's ever been in his career, and is on the top end of what is considered "normal" for a power hitter not named Ryan Howard.

His BABIP (batting average on balls in play) is a good 50 points higher than where it has been. He could sustain this, but I think it will probably regress back to earth at some point, as his ZIPS projection predicts, and he'll be a .308/.357/.519 guy rather than a .341/.378/.612 guy. Not to mention his plate patience isn't very good, he is swinging at more pitches outside the strike zone this year than he has ever before in his career, he's just making a lot of contact.

Sorry for being "that guy" who uses the SABR stats, but they really do tell you the whole story behind a situation like this. The park factors and an insanely high BABIP and HR/FB set up perfectly for a kid to have a monster year. And he's a good player, I'm just not going to take him instead of or before most of the other good young outfielders in baseball because his ridiculous numbers are a bit of a mirage.

Name one other guy that did what Gonzalez is doing in his first full season in the big leagues and then, barring injury, drugs, etc., never repeated it...I'll wait.

[ToTheLeft]

It's people like you that run the Cubs and Mets. It's people like me that run the Rays. Stats play a huge role in this game, and they can tell you more than you can see by watching Fowler jump up a wall and catch a baseball and assume he's a good fielder.

Fowler's defense is below replacement level. Robbing a couple HR's means nothing if you can't catch and properly throw the balls you're supposed to be able to get to. Fowler has the same problem Upton does, they're athletic but they're not good fielders. And that's the difference. Just because you're fast doesn't make you a good fielder.

And Choo is an amazing defender, as is Gardner. Both are WAYYYYY ahead of CarGo, Fowler, or Smith. Miles ahead.

You can ignore the numbers all you want, but they prove you wrong. And I have stepped foot on and played on a baseball field. And that's such a terrible argument to resort to that I'm going to assume you've given up on arguing facts.

Fowler's range is so bad that he allows more runs than the average CF because of his poor range and arm. So he might be fast, but he doesn't cover CF the way he should.

Fowler is 2 runs under average in terms of his range. CarGo is 1.5 runs under average. Carl Crawford is 18 runs above it.

Ignore it all you like, but Carl Crawford's defense has prevented 20 runs that Dexter Fowler/Carlos Gonzalez would have allowed were he playing the same position in the same games. That's probably 3-5 wins, from ONE PLAYER's defense.

You can run off to your beer league softball game and tell everyone how fast you think CarGo and Fowler are and how good of a player they are and be "on a baseball field" and have an "eye for baseball". I'll stick to facts.

[ToTheLeft]

Again, if you look at the stats...

His Home Run to Fly Ball ratio is higher than it's ever been in his career, and is on the top end of what is considered "normal" for a power hitter not named Ryan Howard.

His BABIP (batting average on balls in play) is a good 50 points higher than where it has been. He could sustain this, but I think it will probably regress back to earth at some point, as his ZIPS projection predicts, and he'll be a .308/.357/.519 guy rather than a .341/.378/.612 guy. Not to mention his plate patience isn't very good, he is swinging at more pitches outside the strike zone this year than he has ever before in his career, he's just making a lot of contact.

Sorry for being "that guy" who uses the SABR stats, but they really do tell you the whole story behind a situation like this. The park factors and an insanely high BABIP and HR/FB set up perfectly for a kid to have a monster year. And he's a good player, I'm just not going to take him instead of or before most of the other good young outfielders in baseball because his ridiculous numbers are a bit of a mirage.

Name one other guy that did what Gonzalez is doing in his first full season in the big leagues and then, barring injury, drugs, etc., never repeated it...I'll wait.

Ben Zobrist so far. And CarGo had two ~90 game seasons, he's not a rookie.

And to ask you the same kind of question back...

Find me one player who came up to the Bigs and far outperformed his minor league numbers and sustained a BABIP near .400 for his career.

I'm waiting, too.

[free7694]

Name one other guy that did what Gonzalez is doing in his first full season in the big leagues and then, barring injury, drugs, etc., never repeated it...I'll wait.

Ben Zobrist so far. And CarGo had two ~90 game seasons, he's not a rookie.

And to ask you the same kind of question back...

Find me one player who came up to the Bigs and far outperformed his minor league numbers and sustained a BABIP near .400 for his career.

I'm waiting, too.

CarGo is in a different role now thatn he was in the minor leagues. Throughout the minors, he was hitting first or second and being asked to get on base for power bats behind him in the order. But Jim Tracy saw him hit the ball a few times at the end of last season and start of this one, put him in the three hole and said "Here kid, hit bombs."

Also, I hate BABIP, it takes something, the ability to hit the ball hard and have bat control, which isn't luck and equates it to luck.

If you'd put down the spreadsheet and actually watch a **** baseball game, you'd be able to see how great of a player Gonzalez is.

[ToTheLeft]

Ben Zobrist so far. And CarGo had two ~90 game seasons, he's not a rookie.

And to ask you the same kind of question back...

Find me one player who came up to the Bigs and far outperformed his minor league numbers and sustained a BABIP near .400 for his career.

I'm waiting, too.

CarGo is in a different role now thatn he was in the minor leagues. Throughout the minors, he was hitting first or second and being asked to get on base for power bats behind him in the order. But Jim Tracy saw him hit the ball a few times at the end of last season and start of this one, put him in the three hole and said "Here kid, hit bombs."

Also, I hate BABIP, it takes something, the ability to hit the ball hard and have bat control, which isn't luck and equates it to luck.

If you'd put down the spreadsheet and actually watch a **** baseball game, you'd be able to see how great of a player Gonzalez is.

Haha, well, as much as you hate it, it says a lot about the game. Ignorance is not always bliss.

And I do watch plenty of baseball games. And I never said he wasn't a good player. But the whole "I'm not sure there's a player I'd take ahead of him" talk is exaggerated and frankly based on nothing but hype and unsustainable numbers.

The home/road splits are incredibly tilted towards Coors, and his BABIP is unsustainable.

And "ability to hit the ball hard and bat control" isn't what BABIP measures. BABIP says "you hit the ball in play, how many times does it fall in for a hit". Take Ichiro for example. He's probably the best sheer hitter in baseball in terms of hitting it how and where he wants to, when he wants to.

BABIP this year: .354 Splits this year: .310/.357/.394
BABIP last year: .384 Splits last year: .352/.386/.465
BABIP the year before: .334 Splits that year: .310/.361/.386

Even the best contact hitter in the game sees his batting average sway based on his BABIP. CarGo is not an exception to this rule, a very high .300's BABIP is not sustainable. Sorry to burst your bubble. CarGo is a .300 hitter with 25 HR's and 100 RBI's with average-ish defense and some speed. That's a really good player, but he's not going to be a perennial MVP. (and that's if he stays in COL. If he moves somewhere else he's a .280's hitter with 20 bombs and 90 RBIS)

I'm not hating on him, I'm just saying I'd rather have Holliday, Shin Shoo-Choo, Carl Crawford, Joey Votto, and Josh Hamilton. It's just based on what they bring to the team. I would try to explain more stats but I'm sure you'll reject them. So I'll leave it at that.

[MrTitleist]

I actually think it's funny that you'd take Holliday over Cargo.. since they're essentially the same player, one just has the luck of hitting behind the best hitter in the game. Holliday had poor defense and wasn't as fast as CarGo. But that's not to say that Holliday still isn't a good hitter, because he is, but I don't think he's better than CarGo. The rest of the OFs you named are pretty solid players, certainly the top of the league. I would question Hamilton's D and speed in question to CarGo, but he's also much older. I don't know that CarGo has peaked yet.

Regardless, I still think Tulo is a better player than CarGo.

[ToTheLeft]

I actually think it's funny that you'd take Holliday over Cargo.. since they're essentially the same player, one just has the luck of hitting behind the best hitter in the game. Holliday had poor defense and wasn't as fast as CarGo. But that's not to say that Holliday still isn't a good hitter, because he is, but I don't think he's better than CarGo. The rest of the OFs you named are pretty solid players, certainly the top of the league. I would question Hamilton's D and speed in question to CarGo, but he's also much older. I don't know that CarGo has peaked yet.

Regardless, I still think Tulo is a better player than CarGo.

Holliday's defense is good enough. Just because he isn't fast doesn't mean he's not a good defender. His UZR and Range numbers are solid, significantly better than Carlos. Park factors in here somewhat, since Matt was really bad in Colorado, too. Hamilton is in the same boat. Not as athletic, but the numbers support him being a very solid defender. It's more about being consistent and making the plays you're supposed to. What good is a robbed home run if the same guy misreads multiple line drives and turns singles and doubles into doubles and triples, and outs into doubles? It's not really worth it.

And I agree completely. Tulo is a potential MVP candidate if he stays healthy, CarGo is just a good to great OF lost in a sea of other good to great OF's.