Interesting Cy Young Race article

[clenz]

From a Twins blogger. It is a couple days old, but it still stands.


http://www.nickstwinsblog.com/2010/09/s ... -race.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wednesday, September 15, 2010
Straightening Out the AL Cy Young Race


Recently, there's been growing debate surrounding this year's American League Cy Young race. The three most popular candidates are David Price, C.C. Sabathia and Felix Hernandez, all of whom are having outstanding years. One could argue that a few other starters deserve to be part of the mix, including our own Francisco Liriano, but for today we'll stick with the trio mentioned above. Let's compare some key numbers for those three hurlers:

Pitcher A: 217 IP, 3.03 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 7.4 K/9IP, 2.8 BB/9IP, .653 opp OPS
Pitcher B: 186.2 IP, 2.75 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 8.1 K/9IP, 3.5 BB/9IP, .640 opp OPS
Pitcher C: 225.2 IP, 2.39 ERA, 1.10 WHIP, 8.5 K/9IP, 2.5 BB/9IP, .599 opp OPS

Undeniably, all three of these pitchers are having terrific seasons, but it should be clear from those numbers who's been best. It's Pitcher C, and it's not even close. He's markedly better than both of his opponents in every single category.

One factor that is not reflected above, however, is the situation surrounding all three players. Pitcher A (Sabathia) pitches for a playoff-bound team with an elite offense, and as a result, his win-loss record sits at 19-6. Pitcher B (Price) works under similar circumstances, and sports a 17-6 record.

Meanwhile, Pitcher C -- which is obviously Hernandez -- plays for a last-place team with a historically terrible offense. This has led him to an 11-11 record despite his spectacular performance on the mound. On 12 occasions this year, Hernandez has pitched seven or more innings, allowed two or fewer earned runs, and come away with a no-decision or a loss. This has happened to Sabathia and Price a combined total of six times.

The Cy Young Award is meant to go to the best pitcher in the league, and there's zero doubt that Hernandez has pitched far better than Sabathia or Price this year. Yet, because of the flawed logic that goes into the voting process, he could well finish third in the voting. That's because the writers who vote on this award have historically weighed W/L as the most important measure of success, despite it being the statistic over which a pitcher has least control.

Sadly, some of the leading voices in the baseball community have been trying to lead fans astray on this matter. Yesterday, Jon Paul Morosi of FoxSports.com posted an article in which he suggests that Hernandez doesn't merit consideration for Cy Young honors due to the fact that he isn't pitching for a playoff-bound team. An excerpt from Morosi's column:

There’s an award for a pitcher such as Hernandez. It’s called the ERA title. Not the Cy Young Award, as voted on by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America.

To be the best, one must do what Sabathia and Price have all season — compete against the best lineups, in postseason-type atmospheres, before crazed crowds at hitter-friendly ballparks.

Of course, as I pointed out above, Hernandez leads his opponents in not only ERA, but essentially every measurement of pitching aptitude other than win/loss record. I'd certainly disagree with Morosi's second assertion; I'd argue that "to be the best" one simply must be better than everyone else. Hernandez has been. And, ironically, Morosi last year supported the case of rightful Cy Young winner Zack Greinke, who of course pitched a ton of playoff-type games in Kauffman Stadium for the last-place Royals.

In a chat on ESPN.com yesterday, Joe Morgan stated that it's "a joke" that there is even debate about this year's Cy Young race, proclaiming that "the name of the game is to win and [Sabathia has] won," all while ignoring the fact that Sabathia pitches for the top scoring offense in the league while Hernandez pitches for a team whose OPS this year is lower than Nick Punto's career mark. Then he made some point about Cliff Lee not winning games since being traded to Texas while ignoring the fact that Lee has been battling a back injury since switching clubs.

The Baseball Writers Association of America, which votes on the Cy Young Award, hit an all-time low for me back in 2005 when they selected Bartolo Colon over Johan Santana in a situation that was eerily similar to this year's Sabathia/Hernandez juxtaposition. Santana rated significantly better than Colon in essentially every metric other than W/L record, and yet Colon coasted to an easy victory based solely on his 21 wins and his team's success.

The BBWAA seemingly showed that they'd finally moved away from their fixation on win/loss record last year when they awarded Greinke with the Cy Young despite his 16-8 record (not to mention Tim Lincecum in the NL, who finished with just 15 wins). This year, they will undo all that progress if they hand it to the undeserving Sabathia while punishing Hernandez for the crappy offense Seattle's front office put together.

I want to care about the Cy Young Award. I really do. It's an important part of the way the game's history will be written and one day it may be the deciding factor in a Hall of Fame case. (Does anyone doubt that Bert Blyleven would have been inducted long ago if he had a few Cy Youngs sitting on his shelf?)

Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder to care when the voters show so little consideration for the numbers that actually indicate how well someone has pitched. And to see respected national figures like Morosi and Morgan present the kind of woefully misguided arguments linked above is disheartening, to say the least.

[JoltinJoe]

I agree with Joe Morgan. The most important thing is to win. Thus, the most important metric for Cy Young consideration is the number of wins. It boggles my imagination to suggest otherwise. You give me a pitcher with a 4.30 ERA and 20 wins, I'll take him every day.

The other numbers are important in assessing a pitcher's overall talent. But I'm still more interested in wins, not talent. The other numbers are important considerations too in the Cy Young determination, just not as important as wins.

I could be persuaded to go with Hernandez with fewer wins over Sabathia with more wins given the other numbers above, but 12 wins just aren't enough. The current 7-win disparity is too much, especially since Sabathia's others numbers are excellent in their own right. Now if Hernandez winds up with 16 wins, then maybe he's in the Cy Young dicsussion.

It is not surprising that a great pitcher with more run support will have a higher ERA, WHIP, etc. than a great pitcher with less run support. When you are a starter pitching with a lead, you are trying to throw a few pitches as possible and get as deep as he can into the game. So a guy like Sabathia is going to challenge hitters with more frequency than a pitcher like Hernandez. Challenging hitters can result in more meaningless baserunners and runs. Just as a comparison of W-L records doesn't tell the whole story, a comparsion of WHIP and/or ERA doesn't tell the whole story either.

Sabathia gets the Cy Young, as of now, because Hernandez's slight advantages in ERA, WHIP, Ks cannot overcome Sabathia's overwhelming advantage in the most significant category -- how many times did you get the win.

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How many times did the Mariners get the win compared to the number of times the Yankees got the win?

What kind of run support are they getting. If Hernandez played for the Yankees he'd be a 20 game winner already.

[SuperHornet]

I don't begin to understand this WHIP stuff (not to mention OPS), but I do understand ERA, strikeouts/full game, etc. While I love a 20-30-game winner myself, I'm also a fan of good pitchers unfortunate enough to be stuck on bad teams. (Walter Johnson comes to mind really fast, as does Randy Johnson for most of his career.) I really don't like the idea of a bad pitcher getting his ineptitude glossed over because his offense can cover that up.

Of course, I think most pitchers nowadays are coddled WAY too much. Expansion may have something to do with that (more pitchers required means bringing up more bad pitchers). But in ANY era, 6 innings is NOT a quality start. A quality start, in my book, is a complete game that said pitcher dominated. We don't see very many of those anymore because managers (many influenced by threatening agents) will yank pitchers WAY too soon. I'm sick of a good starter with a lead get yanked in the sixth, only to watch the bullpen blow up.

OK. [/rant]

I'll take Pitcher C for the Cy Young....

[ToTheLeft]

Wins are a terrible way to determine who the best pitcher is.

Hernandez and Liriano are just as qualified for the Cy Young, if not more so, than CC and David Price. A pitcher can come in 50 times in relief, give up 3 runs each time, but if 20 of those times his team comes after him and score enough runs to take a lead in the inning he leaves, he gets 20 wins. So he should win the Cy Young?

And agreeing with Joe Morgan is a terrible idea in any circumstance.

[JoltinJoe]

How many times did the Mariners get the win compared to the number of times the Yankees got the win?

What kind of run support are they getting. If Hernandez played for the Yankees he'd be a 20 game winner already.

This is baseball. We don't deal with "Ifs." We deal in what "is" as in what is on the field -- and who wins.

IF Sabathia pitched in the AL West, and got to face those weaker offensives more often, he'd have a lower ERA and WHIP. Instead he pitches in the AL East, and faces the offenses of the Rays, Red Sox, Blue Jays and Orioles more often. But I won't even go there. It doesn't matter or count, because it is a hypothetical.

[UNHWildCats]

I agree with Joe Morgan. The most important thing is to win. Thus, the most important metric for Cy Young consideration is the number of wins. It boggles my imagination to suggest otherwise. You give me a pitcher with a 4.30 ERA and 20 wins, I'll take him every day.

The other numbers are important in assessing a pitcher's overall talent. But I'm still more interested in wins, not talent. The other numbers are important considerations too in the Cy Young determination, just not as important as wins.

I could be persuaded to go with Hernandez with fewer wins over Sabathia with more wins given the other numbers above, but 12 wins just aren't enough. The current 7-win disparity is too much, especially since Sabathia's others numbers are excellent in their own right. Now if Hernandez winds up with 16 wins, then maybe he's in the Cy Young dicsussion.

It is not surprising that a great pitcher with more run support will have a higher ERA, WHIP, etc. than a great pitcher with less run support. When you are a starter pitching with a lead, you are trying to throw a few pitches as possible and get as deep as he can into the game. So a guy like Sabathia is going to challenge hitters with more frequency than a pitcher like Hernandez. Challenging hitters can result in more meaningless baserunners and runs. Just as a comparison of W-L records doesn't tell the whole story, a comparsion of WHIP and/or ERA doesn't tell the whole story either.

Sabathia gets the Cy Young, as of now, because Hernandez's slight advantages in ERA, WHIP, Ks cannot overcome Sabathia's overwhelming advantage in the most significant category -- how many times did you get the win.

if you put Hernandez on the Yankees and he likely wins 25 games. this isnt most valuable pitcher or Mr. Run Support Award. Its for the best pitcher and theres no arguing that Hernandez is the best pitcher in the AL in 2010. Anyone trying to make an argument at this point is nothing more than an idiot or a blinded homer.

[ToTheLeft]

I agree with Joe Morgan. The most important thing is to win. Thus, the most important metric for Cy Young consideration is the number of wins. It boggles my imagination to suggest otherwise. You give me a pitcher with a 4.30 ERA and 20 wins, I'll take him every day.

The other numbers are important in assessing a pitcher's overall talent. But I'm still more interested in wins, not talent. The other numbers are important considerations too in the Cy Young determination, just not as important as wins.

I could be persuaded to go with Hernandez with fewer wins over Sabathia with more wins given the other numbers above, but 12 wins just aren't enough. The current 7-win disparity is too much, especially since Sabathia's others numbers are excellent in their own right. Now if Hernandez winds up with 16 wins, then maybe he's in the Cy Young dicsussion.

It is not surprising that a great pitcher with more run support will have a higher ERA, WHIP, etc. than a great pitcher with less run support. When you are a starter pitching with a lead, you are trying to throw a few pitches as possible and get as deep as he can into the game. So a guy like Sabathia is going to challenge hitters with more frequency than a pitcher like Hernandez. Challenging hitters can result in more meaningless baserunners and runs. Just as a comparison of W-L records doesn't tell the whole story, a comparsion of WHIP and/or ERA doesn't tell the whole story either.

Sabathia gets the Cy Young, as of now, because Hernandez's slight advantages in ERA, WHIP, Ks cannot overcome Sabathia's overwhelming advantage in the most significant category -- how many times did you get the win.

if you put Hernandez on the Yankees and he likely wins 25 games. this isnt most valuable pitcher or Mr. Run Support Award. Its for the best pitcher and theres no arguing that Hernandez is the best pitcher in the AL in 2010. Anyone trying to make an argument at this point is nothing more than an idiot or a blinded homer.

Must... not... agree... with... Travis...

But he is right. Felix has had a ridiculous season.

[JoltinJoe]

I agree with Joe Morgan. The most important thing is to win. Thus, the most important metric for Cy Young consideration is the number of wins. It boggles my imagination to suggest otherwise. You give me a pitcher with a 4.30 ERA and 20 wins, I'll take him every day.

The other numbers are important in assessing a pitcher's overall talent. But I'm still more interested in wins, not talent. The other numbers are important considerations too in the Cy Young determination, just not as important as wins.

I could be persuaded to go with Hernandez with fewer wins over Sabathia with more wins given the other numbers above, but 12 wins just aren't enough. The current 7-win disparity is too much, especially since Sabathia's others numbers are excellent in their own right. Now if Hernandez winds up with 16 wins, then maybe he's in the Cy Young dicsussion.

It is not surprising that a great pitcher with more run support will have a higher ERA, WHIP, etc. than a great pitcher with less run support. When you are a starter pitching with a lead, you are trying to throw a few pitches as possible and get as deep as he can into the game. So a guy like Sabathia is going to challenge hitters with more frequency than a pitcher like Hernandez. Challenging hitters can result in more meaningless baserunners and runs. Just as a comparison of W-L records doesn't tell the whole story, a comparsion of WHIP and/or ERA doesn't tell the whole story either.

Sabathia gets the Cy Young, as of now, because Hernandez's slight advantages in ERA, WHIP, Ks cannot overcome Sabathia's overwhelming advantage in the most significant category -- how many times did you get the win.

if you put Hernandez on the Yankees and he likely wins 25 games. this isnt most valuable pitcher or Mr. Run Support Award. Its for the best pitcher and theres no arguing that Hernandez is the best pitcher in the AL in 2010. Anyone trying to make an argument at this point is nothing more than an idiot or a blinded homer.

IF .. you don't know this. But if you put Hernandez on the Yankees, he'd have more wins, but his ERA and WHIP would be higher too, because he'd be facing the better offenses of the AL East far more often. On the Yankees, Hernandez's numbers would probably resemble Sabathia's numbers.

Hernandez has 12 wins. You can offer the explanations you want for him, but this is what IS: 12 wins. Anyone who thinks Hernandez is in the Cy Young discussion right now doesn't get really get baseball.

Baseball is, first and foremost, about winning. Sabermetrics are interesting and helpful numbers, and most intelligent GMs know how to use the information. But when you start using sabermetrics as the standard of what IS, and what actually happens on the field as merely the data to feed into your sabermetric equation -- i.e., you defer to the hypothetical sabermetric result rather than actual results as THE standard -- you've lost the point of why these numbers exist. ERA and WHIP are interesting numbers, but your team doesn't get a bonus in the standings for having the lowest ERA or WHIP. They might help to explain WHY a team is winning, but that's all. WINNING is what is important.

Anyone who tells you that total wins should have little impact on the Cy Young voting have lost the forest for the trees. W-L is the most important metric -- and I will never be convinced otherwise until the rules change so that the team with the best WHIP or ERA wins the pennant.

Sabathia right now is the easy call for Cy Young.

[MrTitleist]

Joe.. stop now, try to save face. You're wrong in every way. It's your kind of retarded mentality that keeps great players from getting the awards they deserve. Felix is obviously outpitching the other candidates here, but he plays for the Mariners. That's not his decision, nor is it in his control.. he does what he can. He can't help that the bullpen blows saves for him. He can't make the offense score more than 1 run in his starts.. hell, he doesn't even get to bat! I mean, if we go by your logic why don't we just hand the award to the pitcher on the team with the best record who has the most wins. We'll just decide in April to hand the award to the Yankee or Devil Ray with the most wins, ERA, Ks, IPs, etc be damned. I mean, that's what you're saying here, right? Measuring by win/loss is totally stupid and doesn't reflect the quality of the pitcher.. all it says is the offense put up enough runs to win in his starts.

Brings me back 3 years ago or so when Colorado made its playoff run by winning 20 some starts.. Josh Fogg had more wins than (I think) Aaron Cook. Cook had better numbers, but Fogg was getting WAY more run support. Did that make Fogg the better pitcher? No. But by your logic, he was. Weird, right?

[DJH]

I agree with Joe Morgan. The most important thing is to win. Thus, the most important metric for Cy Young consideration is the number of wins. It boggles my imagination to suggest otherwise. You give me a pitcher with a 4.30 ERA and 20 wins, I'll take him every day.

The other numbers are important in assessing a pitcher's overall talent. But I'm still more interested in wins, not talent. The other numbers are important considerations too in the Cy Young determination, just not as important as wins.

I could be persuaded to go with Hernandez with fewer wins over Sabathia with more wins given the other numbers above, but 12 wins just aren't enough. The current 7-win disparity is too much, especially since Sabathia's others numbers are excellent in their own right. Now if Hernandez winds up with 16 wins, then maybe he's in the Cy Young dicsussion.

It is not surprising that a great pitcher with more run support will have a higher ERA, WHIP, etc. than a great pitcher with less run support. When you are a starter pitching with a lead, you are trying to throw a few pitches as possible and get as deep as he can into the game. So a guy like Sabathia is going to challenge hitters with more frequency than a pitcher like Hernandez. Challenging hitters can result in more meaningless baserunners and runs. Just as a comparison of W-L records doesn't tell the whole story, a comparsion of WHIP and/or ERA doesn't tell the whole story either.

Sabathia gets the Cy Young, as of now, because Hernandez's slight advantages in ERA, WHIP, Ks cannot overcome Sabathia's overwhelming advantage in the most significant category -- how many times did you get the win.

Pitchers have almost zero control over how many runs they get in support, thus have little control over wins and losses. ERA, WHIP, and Ks are the most accurate measure of how good a pitcher is.

[UNHWildCats]

if you put Hernandez on the Yankees and he likely wins 25 games. this isnt most valuable pitcher or Mr. Run Support Award. Its for the best pitcher and theres no arguing that Hernandez is the best pitcher in the AL in 2010. Anyone trying to make an argument at this point is nothing more than an idiot or a blinded homer.

IF .. you don't know this. But if you put Hernandez on the Yankees, he'd have more wins, but his ERA and WHIP would be higher too, because he'd be facing the better offenses of the AL East far more often. On the Yankees, Hernandez's numbers would probably resemble Sabathia's numbers.

Hernandez has 12 wins. You can offer the explanations you want for him, but this is what IS: 12 wins. Anyone who thinks Hernandez is in the Cy Young discussion right now doesn't get really get baseball.

Baseball is, first and foremost, about winning. Sabermetrics are interesting and helpful numbers, and most intelligent GMs know how to use the information. But when you start using sabermetrics as the standard of what IS, and what actually happens on the field as merely the data to feed into your sabermetric equation -- i.e., you defer to the hypothetical sabermetric result rather than actual results as THE standard -- you've lost the point of why these numbers exist. ERA and WHIP are interesting numbers, but your team doesn't get a bonus in the standings for having the lowest ERA or WHIP. They might help to explain WHY a team is winning, but that's all. WINNING is what is important.

Anyone who tells you that total wins should have little impact on the Cy Young voting have lost the forest for the trees. W-L is the most important metric -- and I will never be convinced otherwise until the rules change so that the team with the best WHIP or ERA wins the pennant.

Sabathia right now is the easy call for Cy Young.

Such as his 1 run allowed in 26 innings vs the Yankees this season? A WHIP under 1.00???

[JoltinJoe]

Joe.. stop now, try to save face. You're wrong in every way. It's your kind of retarded mentality that keeps great players from getting the awards they deserve. Felix is obviously outpitching the other candidates here, but he plays for the Mariners. That's not his decision, nor is it in his control.. he does what he can. He can't help that the bullpen blows saves for him. He can't make the offense score more than 1 run in his starts.. hell, he doesn't even get to bat! I mean, if we go by your logic why don't we just hand the award to the pitcher on the team with the best record who has the most wins. We'll just decide in April to hand the award to the Yankee or Devil Ray with the most wins, ERA, Ks, IPs, etc be damned. I mean, that's what you're saying here, right? Measuring by win/loss is totally stupid and doesn't reflect the quality of the pitcher.. all it says is the offense put up enough runs to win in his starts.

Brings me back 3 years ago or so when Colorado made its playoff run by winning 20 some starts.. Josh Fogg had more wins than (I think) Aaron Cook. Cook had better numbers, but Fogg was getting WAY more run support. Did that make Fogg the better pitcher? No. But by your logic, he was. Weird, right?

No, my logic isn't to look at wins exclusively -- but certainly as the most important statstic. If Hernandez managed to get 16 wins or so, and had otherwise stellar numbers, I can see the argument for him. Not with 12 wins when his chief rival also has superlative numbers and is likely to finish with 20 or more wins.

We've become a nation of weenies who give participation trophies to all kids and Cy Young awards to pitchers with 12 wins, because "IF ..."

[BlueHen86]

I'd give the award to Hernandez. Joe Morgan is one of the biggest idiots on TV, I'm glad he disagrees with me, it makes my that much more comfortable with my decision.

[BlueHen86]

Joe.. stop now, try to save face. You're wrong in every way. It's your kind of retarded mentality that keeps great players from getting the awards they deserve. Felix is obviously outpitching the other candidates here, but he plays for the Mariners. That's not his decision, nor is it in his control.. he does what he can. He can't help that the bullpen blows saves for him. He can't make the offense score more than 1 run in his starts.. hell, he doesn't even get to bat! I mean, if we go by your logic why don't we just hand the award to the pitcher on the team with the best record who has the most wins. We'll just decide in April to hand the award to the Yankee or Devil Ray with the most wins, ERA, Ks, IPs, etc be damned. I mean, that's what you're saying here, right? Measuring by win/loss is totally stupid and doesn't reflect the quality of the pitcher.. all it says is the offense put up enough runs to win in his starts.

Brings me back 3 years ago or so when Colorado made its playoff run by winning 20 some starts.. Josh Fogg had more wins than (I think) Aaron Cook. Cook had better numbers, but Fogg was getting WAY more run support. Did that make Fogg the better pitcher? No. But by your logic, he was. Weird, right?

No, my logic isn't to look at wins exclusively -- but certainly as the most important statstic. If Hernandez managed to get 16 wins or so, and had otherwise stellar numbers, I can see the argument for him. Not with 12 wins when his chief rival also has superlative numbers and is likely to finish with 20 or more wins.

We've become a nation of weenies who give participation trophies to all kids and Cy Young awards to pitchers with 12 wins, because "IF ..."

So, because Sabathia got more help from the rest of his team that makes him a better pitcher?

The Cy Young is for the pitcher who helped his team the most, not the pitcher who got the most help from his team.

[UNHWildCats]

No, my logic isn't to look at wins exclusively -- but certainly as the most important statstic. If Hernandez managed to get 16 wins or so, and had otherwise stellar numbers, I can see the argument for him. Not with 12 wins when his chief rival also has superlative numbers and is likely to finish with 20 or more wins.

We've become a nation of weenies who give participation trophies to all kids and Cy Young awards to pitchers with 12 wins, because "IF ..."

So, because Sabathia got more help from the rest of his team that makes him a better pitcher?

The Cy Young is for the pitcher who helped his team the most, not the pitcher who got the most help from his team.

NO you're wrong. The CY Young is not for the pitcher who best helps his team... Its pure and simply the best pitcher in the league that season. If it was for the pitcher who best helps his team Hernandez wouldnt even be in the discussion.

[JoltinJoe]

No, my logic isn't to look at wins exclusively -- but certainly as the most important statstic. If Hernandez managed to get 16 wins or so, and had otherwise stellar numbers, I can see the argument for him. Not with 12 wins when his chief rival also has superlative numbers and is likely to finish with 20 or more wins.

We've become a nation of weenies who give participation trophies to all kids and Cy Young awards to pitchers with 12 wins, because "IF ..."

So, because Sabathia got more help from the rest of his team that makes him a better pitcher?

The Cy Young is for the pitcher who helped his team the most, not the pitcher who got the most help from his team.

Funny that you say Sabathia gets helped most by his team ... Without him taking the ball in every post-season series last year, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

It's also funny that so many people who swear to be big baseball fans don't understand that what gets measured in the standings are wins. WHIP, ERA and even the more advanced sabermetric numbers are interesting, but they don't mean anything if they don't translate into WINS. What counts is what IS ... not what could have been IF ....

You guys are trying hard, though, so I award you all participation trophies for your efforts here.

[UNHWildCats]

So, because Sabathia got more help from the rest of his team that makes him a better pitcher?

The Cy Young is for the pitcher who helped his team the most, not the pitcher who got the most help from his team.

Funny that you say Sabathia gets helped most by his team ... Without him taking the ball in every post-season series last year, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

It's also funny that so many people who swear to be big baseball fans don't understand that what gets measured in the standings are wins. WHIP, ERA and even the more advanced sabermetric numbers are interesting, but they don't mean anything if they don't translate into WINS. What counts is what IS ... not what could have been IF ....

You guys are trying hard, though, so I award you all participation trophies for your efforts here.

Yes wins are important... but a pitcher cant do anything about winning a game. He can go out and throw 18 perfect innings and he still has no control over whether his team wins or loses... well unless he is a NL pitcher, then he has abit of control lol.

But again as I said... the Cy Young isnt an award for most valuable pitcher. Pure and simple its for the BEST pitcher and wins dont make or break how good a pitcher is.

[BlueHen86]

So, because Sabathia got more help from the rest of his team that makes him a better pitcher?

The Cy Young is for the pitcher who helped his team the most, not the pitcher who got the most help from his team.

Funny that you say Sabathia gets helped most by his team ... Without him taking the ball in every post-season series last year, the Yankees don't win the World Series.
It's also funny that so many people who swear to be big baseball fans don't understand that what gets measured in the standings are wins. WHIP, ERA and even the more advanced sabermetric numbers are interesting, but they don't mean anything if they don't translate into WINS. What counts is what IS ... not what could have been IF ....

You guys are trying hard, though, so I award you all participation trophies for your efforts here.

Post season has nothing to do with winning a Cy Young. You would know that if you weren't such a homer Yankee fan.

[BlueHen86]

Funny that you say Sabathia gets helped most by his team ... Without him taking the ball in every post-season series last year, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

It's also funny that so many people who swear to be big baseball fans don't understand that what gets measured in the standings are wins. WHIP, ERA and even the more advanced sabermetric numbers are interesting, but they don't mean anything if they don't translate into WINS. What counts is what IS ... not what could have been IF ....

You guys are trying hard, though, so I award you all participation trophies for your efforts here.

Yes wins are important... but a pitcher cant do anything about winning a game. He can go out and throw 18 perfect innings and he still has no control over whether his team wins or loses... well unless he is a NL pitcher, then he has abit of control lol.

But again as I said... the Cy Young isnt an award for most valuable pitcher. Pure and simple its for the BEST pitcher and wins dont make or break how good a pitcher is.

Exactly. Hernandez leads in the stat categories that he, as a pitcher, has control over. Sabathia leads in the category that a pitcher needs the most help from his team with.

[BlueHen86]

So, because Sabathia got more help from the rest of his team that makes him a better pitcher?

The Cy Young is for the pitcher who helped his team the most, not the pitcher who got the most help from his team.

NO you're wrong. The CY Young is not for the pitcher who best helps his team... Its pure and simply the best pitcher in the league that season. If it was for the pitcher who best helps his team Hernandez wouldnt even be in the discussion.

I agree. I stated it poorly, it is for the best pitcher.

[JoltinJoe]

Funny that you say Sabathia gets helped most by his team ... Without him taking the ball in every post-season series last year, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

It's also funny that so many people who swear to be big baseball fans don't understand that what gets measured in the standings are wins. WHIP, ERA and even the more advanced sabermetric numbers are interesting, but they don't mean anything if they don't translate into WINS. What counts is what IS ... not what could have been IF ....

You guys are trying hard, though, so I award you all participation trophies for your efforts here.

Yes wins are important... but a pitcher cant do anything about winning a game. He can go out and throw 18 perfect innings and he still has no control over whether his team wins or loses... well unless he is a NL pitcher, then he has abit of control lol.

But again as I said... the Cy Young isnt an award for most valuable pitcher. Pure and simple its for the BEST pitcher and wins dont make or break how good a pitcher is.

Sabermetricians say this all the time, and there's few things that they say which is more wrong than this. It shows they just don't get it.

If, as you say, a pitcher goes out and shuts out the other team, he is going to win a lot of games doing that. A pitcher has the most control over the game because he completely controls what the other team does. Except for the fact that sabergeeks completely fail to grasp the significance that pitching is governed by the situation, and that everything a pitcher does is governed by existing circumstances (the count, the score, the hitter, the ballpark) when they try to "make everything neutral" for comparison purposes, there is nothing more fallacious in the sabergeek's playbook than the argument that wins are not important because the pitcher has little control over whether his team wins or loses. Yo won't find a single major league manager, pitching coach, or pitcher worth his salt who would agree with that statement. And yet it's gospel truth to sabergeeks.

These numbers, when used appropriately can be interesting, but now there is an eight-win gap between Sabathia (20 wins) and Hernandez (12 wins). Sabathia's ancillarly numbers are likewise strong (low ERA, low WHIP). You just cannot ignore that Sabathia has eight more wins when his other numbers are excellent.

When the Mariners had their great collapse in May, their ace went 0-3 with a 4.79 ERA. It's nice that, theafter, Hernandez has thrived in the pressure-free environment he helped to create in Seattle.

[JoltinJoe]

Funny that you say Sabathia gets helped most by his team ... Without him taking the ball in every post-season series last year, the Yankees don't win the World Series.
It's also funny that so many people who swear to be big baseball fans don't understand that what gets measured in the standings are wins. WHIP, ERA and even the more advanced sabermetric numbers are interesting, but they don't mean anything if they don't translate into WINS. What counts is what IS ... not what could have been IF ....

You guys are trying hard, though, so I award you all participation trophies for your efforts here.

Post season has nothing to do with winning a Cy Young. You would know that if you weren't such a homer Yankee fan.

Of course I know this ... I just mentioned the post-season as a veiled reminder to remind you that the Phillies lost the World Series to the Yankees.

[Gil Dobie]

There's lies, damn lies and then statistics.

I'd go with Price. Steve Carlton won 27 games with a terrible team that won 59 games.

Hernandez is 3-0 vs Yankees, add him to the Yankees and he has 3 less wins.
Hernandez also only 2-7 against his own division, Sabathia 7-2 in his division albiet 5-1 vs Baltimore, Price is 8-2 in his division.

[AZGrizFan]

Just heard some additional stats comparing Hernandez & CC:

Hernandez has had 15 starts where the Mariners scored 2 or less runs. CC has had 7.
Hernandez has had 7 starts where the Mariners have scored 5 or more runs. CC has had 20.
Hernandez has 50+ more strikeouts than Price and 40+ more than CC

The ONLY meaningful statistic Hernandez isn't blowing away the competition in (and the only statistic out of the pitcher's control) is Wins.

I say Hernandez should win it.