Wins are a stupid stat for pitchers

[ToTheLeft]

It's not just saber stats that say Felix was better this year. It's EVERY STAT OTHER THAN WINS!!!!

It's not his WAR or his xFIP or his Leverage Index, it's it ERA, his K's, his innings pitched.

[ToTheLeft]

Sep 28 @TOR W 6-1 8.1 3 1 1 1 2 8 11 9 111 30 79 W(21-7) - 3.18
Sep 23 TB L 10-3 5.1 10 7 7 0 3 6 9 9 111 27 23 L(20-7) - 3.26
Sep 18 @BAL W 11-3 7.0 7 3 3 1 1 4 11 12 104 28 54 W(20-6) - 3.05
Sep 13 @TB L 1-0 8.0 2 0 0 0 2 9 10 7 119 29 85 - - 3.03
Sep 7 BAL L 6-2 6.1 9 6 5 1 1 5 10 14 109 30 37 L(19-6) - 3.14
Aug 7 BOS W 5-2 8.0 6 2 2 1 1 4 13 12 101 30 65 W(14-5) - 3.14
Aug 1 @TB L 3-0 6.2 8 3 3 0 3 3 13 10 112 29 46 L(13-5) - 3.19
Jul 16 TB W 5-4 7.0 8 4 3 0 4 6 13 10 113 33 49 - - 3.13
Jun 9 @BAL W 4-2 7.0 9 2 2 0 3 8 11 10 114 32 56 W(6-3) - 4.01
Jun 3 BAL W 6-3 7.0 3 3 3 2 1 7 12 6 94 26 65 W(5-3) - 4.14
May 18 BOS L 7-6 7.0 4 1 1 1 3 5 9 10 112 27 67 - - 3.43
May 8 @BOS W 14-3 4.2 4 3 3 2 2 4 3 10 85 20 46 - - 3.04
May 3 BAL W 4-1 8.0 6 1 1 1 2 2 17 9 106 30 66 W(4-1) - 2.74
Apr 28 @BAL W 8-3 7.2 11 3 3 1 2 5 14 13 111 34 48 W(3-1) - 3.12
Apr 10 @TB W 10-0 7.2 1 0 0 0 2 5 11 8 111 26 80 W(1-0) - 3.46
Apr 4 @BOS L 9-7 5.1 6 5 5 0 2 4 7 10 104 23 38 - - 8.44

9-6 against his own division, if the knock on Felix is that he didn't win when it mattered for his team, the same is true about CC. 2-3 against the Rays, the team they lost to for the division. Price should win if this is how we measure things.

[JoltinJoe]

Sep 28 @TOR W 6-1 8.1 3 1 1 1 2 8 11 9 111 30 79 W(21-7) - 3.18
Sep 23 TB L 10-3 5.1 10 7 7 0 3 6 9 9 111 27 23 L(20-7) - 3.26
Sep 18 @BAL W 11-3 7.0 7 3 3 1 1 4 11 12 104 28 54 W(20-6) - 3.05
Sep 13 @TB L 1-0 8.0 2 0 0 0 2 9 10 7 119 29 85 - - 3.03
Sep 7 BAL L 6-2 6.1 9 6 5 1 1 5 10 14 109 30 37 L(19-6) - 3.14
Aug 7 BOS W 5-2 8.0 6 2 2 1 1 4 13 12 101 30 65 W(14-5) - 3.14
Aug 1 @TB L 3-0 6.2 8 3 3 0 3 3 13 10 112 29 46 L(13-5) - 3.19
Jul 16 TB W 5-4 7.0 8 4 3 0 4 6 13 10 113 33 49 - - 3.13
Jun 9 @BAL W 4-2 7.0 9 2 2 0 3 8 11 10 114 32 56 W(6-3) - 4.01
Jun 3 BAL W 6-3 7.0 3 3 3 2 1 7 12 6 94 26 65 W(5-3) - 4.14
May 18 BOS L 7-6 7.0 4 1 1 1 3 5 9 10 112 27 67 - - 3.43
May 8 @BOS W 14-3 4.2 4 3 3 2 2 4 3 10 85 20 46 - - 3.04
May 3 BAL W 4-1 8.0 6 1 1 1 2 2 17 9 106 30 66 W(4-1) - 2.74
Apr 28 @BAL W 8-3 7.2 11 3 3 1 2 5 14 13 111 34 48 W(3-1) - 3.12
Apr 10 @TB W 10-0 7.2 1 0 0 0 2 5 11 8 111 26 80 W(1-0) - 3.46
Apr 4 @BOS L 9-7 5.1 6 5 5 0 2 4 7 10 104 23 38 - - 8.44

9-6 against his own division, if the knock on Felix is that he didn't win when it mattered for his team, the same is true about CC. 2-3 against the Rays, the team they lost to for the division. Price should win if this is how we measure things.

Sabathia won 9 straight starts which put the Yankees so far out in front by the end of July that a playoff appearance was a foregone conclusion.

I have no objection to Price winning this.

[ToTheLeft]

Sep 28 @TOR W 6-1 8.1 3 1 1 1 2 8 11 9 111 30 79 W(21-7) - 3.18
Sep 23 TB L 10-3 5.1 10 7 7 0 3 6 9 9 111 27 23 L(20-7) - 3.26
Sep 18 @BAL W 11-3 7.0 7 3 3 1 1 4 11 12 104 28 54 W(20-6) - 3.05
Sep 13 @TB L 1-0 8.0 2 0 0 0 2 9 10 7 119 29 85 - - 3.03
Sep 7 BAL L 6-2 6.1 9 6 5 1 1 5 10 14 109 30 37 L(19-6) - 3.14
Aug 7 BOS W 5-2 8.0 6 2 2 1 1 4 13 12 101 30 65 W(14-5) - 3.14
Aug 1 @TB L 3-0 6.2 8 3 3 0 3 3 13 10 112 29 46 L(13-5) - 3.19
Jul 16 TB W 5-4 7.0 8 4 3 0 4 6 13 10 113 33 49 - - 3.13
Jun 9 @BAL W 4-2 7.0 9 2 2 0 3 8 11 10 114 32 56 W(6-3) - 4.01
Jun 3 BAL W 6-3 7.0 3 3 3 2 1 7 12 6 94 26 65 W(5-3) - 4.14
May 18 BOS L 7-6 7.0 4 1 1 1 3 5 9 10 112 27 67 - - 3.43
May 8 @BOS W 14-3 4.2 4 3 3 2 2 4 3 10 85 20 46 - - 3.04
May 3 BAL W 4-1 8.0 6 1 1 1 2 2 17 9 106 30 66 W(4-1) - 2.74
Apr 28 @BAL W 8-3 7.2 11 3 3 1 2 5 14 13 111 34 48 W(3-1) - 3.12
Apr 10 @TB W 10-0 7.2 1 0 0 0 2 5 11 8 111 26 80 W(1-0) - 3.46
Apr 4 @BOS L 9-7 5.1 6 5 5 0 2 4 7 10 104 23 38 - - 8.44

9-6 against his own division, if the knock on Felix is that he didn't win when it mattered for his team, the same is true about CC. 2-3 against the Rays, the team they lost to for the division. Price should win if this is how we measure things.

Sabathia won 9 straight starts which put the Yankees so far out in front by the end of July that a playoff appearance was a foregone conclusion.

I have no objection to Price winning this.

Well Price is the better combo of wins/stats. If you don't completely dismiss stats, Price was the best thanks to his better numbers. And almost as many wins.

[JoltinJoe]

It's not just saber stats that say Felix was better this year. It's EVERY STAT OTHER THAN WINS!!!!

It's not his WAR or his xFIP or his Leverage Index, it's it ERA, his K's, his innings pitched.

Just to be clear, you are supporting for Cy Young a pitcher whose team lost all six of his starts in May, during which he went 0-3, with 19 earned runs in 35.2 innings. At the beginning of May, the Mariners 11-13 and 1.5 games out of first place. At the end of May, the Mariners were 20-31 and 7 games out.

If Hernandez could have done what Sabathia did during a critical stretch for the Yankees -- win every start -- the Mariners would have been 26-25 at the end of May, in second place, one game out of first (actually one of these games was against Texas, so the teams could have been tied). Hernandez, for his part, would have finished the season at 19-9 and we wouldn't even have a debate about the Cy Young winner.

And this really underscores the debate over the AL Cy Young. Guys who look at numbers out-of-context and place undue weight on them; and guys who are more sensitive to what actually transpires on the field.

[ToTheLeft]

It's not just saber stats that say Felix was better this year. It's EVERY STAT OTHER THAN WINS!!!!

It's not his WAR or his xFIP or his Leverage Index, it's it ERA, his K's, his innings pitched.

Just to be clear, you are supporting for Cy Young a pitcher whose team lost all six of his starts in May, during which he went 0-3, with 19 earned runs in 35.2 innings. At the beginning of May, the Mariners 11-13 and 1.5 games out of first place. At the end of May, the Mariners were 20-31 and 7 games out.

If Hernandez could have done what Sabathia did during a critical stretch for the Yankees -- win every start -- the Mariners would have been 26-25 at the end of May, in second place, one game out of first (actually one of these games was against Texas, so the teams could have been tied). Hernandez, for his part, would have finished the season at 19-9 and we wouldn't even have a debate about the Cy Young winner.

And this really underscores the debate over the AL Cy Young. Guys who look at numbers out-of-context and place undue weight on them; and guys who are more sensitive to what actually transpires on the field.

If it's about "on the field" abstract garbage, it's Price. If it's about stats, it's Felix. In neither case is it CC. That's the most frustrating part, he's not the best in either situation. And your arguments don't stand up, because if we're going to say "He shouldn't win the Cy Young because his losses hurt his team", then CC shouldn't win because his team lost the division and he had losses, so therefore he was a part of the reason his team lost the division. Either you look at the whole package, or you don't. And you're not. You're cherry picking based on stupid, abstract "on the field" "observations" and insinuating that I don't know as much about the game because Harold Reynolds agrees with you, all the while completely ignoring a mountain of information that says that CC is the 3rd best Cy Young candidate. His stats are 3rd best, and his "impact on his team and on the playoff race" is 2nd best, especially when you take his head-to-head matchups with Price.

And if a pitcher can only win the Cy Young based on this stupid crap based on looking at how they did to help their team get to the playoffs, just take the ace from the best team. And that's not how it works. It's for most OUTSTANDING pitcher. That's what it says, right on the award. It's not even "most valuable", it's most outstanding. And that's Felix, because his numbers are freaking incredible. CC is not capable of putting up the numbers Felix put up. And don't give me this "his games didn't matter" crap, because the teams he was facing, it mattered to them!!!! Including the Yankees, who he dominated.

[Gil Dobie]

In Readers Digest Condensed version, Felix pitched maybe 15 good games this season, while Price and Sabatthia pitched 20 good games. Felix gets the Cy Young because his over-all averages are better.

[ToTheLeft]

In Readers Digest Condensed version, Felix pitched maybe 15 good games this season, while Price and Sabatthia pitched 20 good games. Felix gets the Cy Young because his over-all averages are better.

Why roll your eyes? If what you said is true, which it isn't necessarily, then that means the bad games for CC and Price are worse than Felix's bad games, and that should count for something.

But whatever, keep ignoring stats. GM's don't. Managers don't.

[Gil Dobie]

In Readers Digest Condensed version, Felix pitched maybe 15 good games this season, while Price and Sabatthia pitched 20 good games. Felix gets the Cy Young because his over-all averages are better.

Why roll your eyes? If what you said is true, which it isn't necessarily, then that means the bad games for CC and Price are worse than Felix's bad games, and that should count for something.

But whatever, keep ignoring stats. GM's don't. Managers don't.

I am not ignoring stats, you are ignoring what happens on the field. GM's and Managers use stats, but they don't always go with what the stats say due to other things that happen during the course of a game. One stat I don't see much when talking about Felix is his ERA when he lost, approx 4.60. 12 games is a third of the season for a pitcher.

[ToTheLeft]

Why roll your eyes? If what you said is true, which it isn't necessarily, then that means the bad games for CC and Price are worse than Felix's bad games, and that should count for something.

But whatever, keep ignoring stats. GM's don't. Managers don't.

I am not ignoring stats, you are ignoring what happens on the field. GM's and Managers use stats, but they don't always go with what the stats say due to other things that happen during the course of a game. One stat I don't see much when talking about Felix is his ERA when he lost, approx 4.60. 12 games is a third of the season for a pitcher.

How about CC losing 6 of his division games? Come on! YOU'RE CHERRY PICKING. Stats tell the story of his WHOLE SEASON. And Felix has the best stats. Look for stupid details on everything,

CC has a 6.29 ERA in games he lost!!!! and a 4.03 in No decisions! CC loses that stat, too! You're ridiculous man, and you're plain WRONG. In 9 no decisions, Felix has an ERA of 1.92. You're blatantly wrong, CC doesn't deserve crap no matter WHAT measures you use.

[Gil Dobie]

I am not ignoring stats, you are ignoring what happens on the field. GM's and Managers use stats, but they don't always go with what the stats say due to other things that happen during the course of a game. One stat I don't see much when talking about Felix is his ERA when he lost, approx 4.60. 12 games is a third of the season for a pitcher.

How about CC losing 6 of his division games? Come on! YOU'RE CHERRY PICKING. Stats tell the story of his WHOLE SEASON. And Felix has the best stats. Look for stupid details on everything,

CC has a 6.29 ERA in games he lost!!!! and a 4.03 in No decisions! CC loses that stat, too! You're ridiculous man, and you're plain WRONG. In 9 no decisions, Felix has an ERA of 1.92. You're blatantly wrong, CC doesn't deserve crap no matter WHAT measures you use.

I think Joe's the CC guy, but CC didn't lose as many games, Buchholtz didn't lose as many games and his ERA is almost even with Felix, Price didn't lose as many games. Felix pitched for Seattle and won 13 games, Steve Carlton pitched for a 50 something win Phillies team and won 27 games. I am not ridiculous, I just don't agree with you that stats are the only measuring stick for Cy Young.

[ToTheLeft]

How about CC losing 6 of his division games? Come on! YOU'RE CHERRY PICKING. Stats tell the story of his WHOLE SEASON. And Felix has the best stats. Look for stupid details on everything,

CC has a 6.29 ERA in games he lost!!!! and a 4.03 in No decisions! CC loses that stat, too! You're ridiculous man, and you're plain WRONG. In 9 no decisions, Felix has an ERA of 1.92. You're blatantly wrong, CC doesn't deserve crap no matter WHAT measures you use.

I think Joe's the CC guy, but CC didn't lose as many games, Buchholtz didn't lose as many games and his ERA is almost even with Felix, Price didn't lose as many games. Felix pitched for Seattle and won 13 games, Steve Carlton pitched for a 50 something win Phillies team and won 27 games. I am not ridiculous, I just don't agree with you that stats are the only measuring stick for Cy Young.

To each their own. Wins are virtually useless when determining how well a pitcher did, but if you think they do, more power to ya.

[Gil Dobie]

I think Joe's the CC guy, but CC didn't lose as many games, Buchholtz didn't lose as many games and his ERA is almost even with Felix, Price didn't lose as many games. Felix pitched for Seattle and won 13 games, Steve Carlton pitched for a 50 something win Phillies team and won 27 games. I am not ridiculous, I just don't agree with you that stats are the only measuring stick for Cy Young.

To each their own. Wins are virtually useless when determining how well a pitcher did, but if you think they do, more power to ya.

Wins are one stat that can be useful in judging how great a pitcher is, at least the Hall of Fame agrees with all the 300 win pitchers that are members. Other stats are useful too.

[ToTheLeft]

To each their own. Wins are virtually useless when determining how well a pitcher did, but if you think they do, more power to ya.

Wins are one stat that can be useful in judging how great a pitcher is, at least the Hall of Fame agrees with all the 300 win pitchers that are members. Other stats are useful too.

Just because everyone uses it doesn't mean it's an effective way to measure anything.