Government Lifers

[JoltinJoe]

Politicians all the time sing the praises of small businesses but they really don't have any idea how many burdens they create for small business persons. I wish there was a "Take Your Congressman To Work" day so they could see how much time otherwise productive people spend on complying with burdens established by government. But I digress.

A high school buddy of mine recently opened up a Mexican bar and restaurant in Union, NJ. It is called "The Red Cadillac." My buddy is a very successful restaurateur. Among his accomplishments is that he was an owner, operated and managed the Cadillac Bar in New York City. For those of you in the New York area, yes, THAT Cadillac Bar.

He decided not long ago to start a new venture in his hometown. He bought and then spent tens of thousands of dollars, and months, renovating an old restuarant building that had become a local eyesore. He has hired dozens of local workers. He has opened a new restaurant and bar to rave reviews in the media.

One of his cooler toouches was that he bought one of those classic 1960s red Cadillac convertibles, restored it, and parked it in front of the building -- on his property. But within weeks, he received a visit from a local zoning official who informed him that parking the car in front of his building violated a local ordinance. So he explained he wasn't aware of the ordinance but would promptly move the car.

The zoning official issued a citation anyway. So he went to municipal court today and was fined $10,000 for this trifling and unknowing violation of the local ordinance. So this is how Union, NJ treats a small business guy who stuck his neck out to help the local economy and hire local workers druring these miserable economic times.

Screw that, government lifers grow into people without conscience or judgment.

[UNHWildCats]

Its his responsibility to know the rules and laws. If I got pulled over and blew a .08 I cant say oh I didnt know that was the limit in this state and expect to get let off... There are laws and rules and they need to be enforced. Now I do think its stupid to fine someone on a first offense like that, but if the policy has always been to fine on the first offense for breaking that particular ordinance than he cant expect special treatment just because he is helping the local economy.

[93henfan]

Is there any wonder why people are leaving Jersey in droves?

[JoltinJoe]

Travis, it's a $10,000 fine for a minor, first-time offense ... It's not that he was fined ... it is the amount of the fine which is piggish and unconscionable.

[dbackjon]

But I thought local government was the answer to all of the problems, and it was only the big, bad federal government that was the issue...

[Col Hogan]

But I thought local government was the answer to all of the problems, and it was only the big, bad federal government that was the issue...

Nice distortion...

joe...your friend obviously has run afoul of a blind bureaucrat...the absolute lowest form a life at any level of government...

Hopefully his business is a success despite this incident...

[clenz]

Its his responsibility to know the rules and laws. If I got pulled over and blew a .08 I cant say oh I didnt know that was the limit in this state and expect to get let off... There are laws and rules and they need to be enforced. Now I do think its stupid to fine someone on a first offense like that, but if the policy has always been to fine on the first offense for breaking that particular ordinance than he cant expect special treatment just because he is helping the local economy.

I have to agree with Travis on this one. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Now, do I think the fine was excessive for the offense? Yep, I do.

That doesn't change the fact he needs to know all of the laws before he does things.

[native]

Its his responsibility to know the rules and laws. If I got pulled over and blew a .08 I cant say oh I didnt know that was the limit in this state and expect to get let off... There are laws and rules and they need to be enforced. Now I do think its stupid to fine someone on a first offense like that, but if the policy has always been to fine on the first offense for breaking that particular ordinance than he cant expect special treatment just because he is helping the local economy.

I have to agree with Travis on this one. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Now, do I think the fine was excessive for the offense? Yep, I do.

That doesn't change the fact he needs to know all of the laws before he does things.

Clenzie! What happened to you? Unless there are other relevant facts of which we are unaware, this regulation is bullshiite and the bureaucrat should be fired!

Business people should be subject matter experts in their businesses, in this case things like food safety, employment law, marketing, food quality and public accomodation. They should NOT have to be experts on arcane and ridiculous city regulations.

NOT ONLY should the restaurateur not have to become a subject matter expert on such superfluous regulations, the city government should be grateful for the investment and do everything possible to help the entrepreneur succeed.

[YoUDeeMan]

[NOT ONLY should the restaurateur not have to become a subject matter expert on such superfluous regulations, the city government should be grateful for the investment and do everything possible to help the entrepreneur succeed.

What Joe didn't tell you was that his buddy didn't hire the local union guys to do the work.

In New Jersey, you pay...one way or another. Expect a few more "fines" if he doesn't cooperate.

[native]

NOT ONLY should the restaurateur not have to become a subject matter expert on such superfluous regulations, the city government should be grateful for the investment and do everything possible to help the entrepreneur succeed.

What Joe didn't tell you was that his buddy didn't hire the local union guys to do the work.

In New Jersey, you pay...one way or another. Expect a few more "fines" if he doesn't cooperate.

Corrupt and overly powerful unions. FDR's legacy.

[kalm]

What Joe didn't tell you was that his buddy didn't hire the local union guys to do the work.

In New Jersey, you pay...one way or another. Expect a few more "fines" if he doesn't cooperate.

Corrupt and overly powerful unions. FDR's legacy.

No, No, No. Those who controlled the market exercised their clout. Capitalism at its best.

(On a serious note, that law is fucked, and if the business owner is semi-competent I bet he won't pay a dime).

[UNHWildCats]

Corrupt and overly powerful unions. FDR's legacy.

No, No, No. Those who controlled the market exercised their clout. Capitalism at its best.

(On a serious note, that law is fucked, and if the business owner is semi-competent I bet he won't pay a dime).

He's from New Jersey, so I wouldnt bet anything on him being competent

[OL FU]

I am sure a letter asking him to remove the car would have corrected the problem.

That is the issue, not that he violated the law or that he knew or didn't know. Somethings require citations, some things require communication. If communication doesn't work, issue the citation.

[D1B]

Joe, your friend is a victim for sure. He primarily is a victim of New Jersey - really the east coast/new england - where corruption is rampant, especially in local government licensing and the construction and building trades. Practically everyone there is corrupt.

Man is a wolf to man - in New York/Jersey

My SIL built her office in Jersey and was ripped off and strong armed left and right by plumbers, carpenters - you name it - the worst were the building inspectors.

You don't see this stuff in the Midwest. If something like that happened here in Wisconsin, the townfolk would be raiding city hall with pitchforks and torches. Here, for the most part, government is afraid of people.

*I expect to get free food and drink at your buddy's waterin hole if I'm ever in Jersey.

[89Hen]

Its his responsibility to know the rules and laws. If I got pulled over and blew a .08...

You may have just relieved Z of the award for worst analogy of all-time.

[89Hen]

I am sure a letter asking him to remove the car would have corrected the problem.

That is the issue, not that he violated the law or that he knew or didn't know. Somethings require citations, some things require communication. If communication doesn't work, issue the citation.

At least one other person gets it.

[D1B]

I am sure a letter asking him to remove the car would have corrected the problem.

That is the issue, not that he violated the law or that he knew or didn't know. Somethings require citations, some things require communication. If communication doesn't work, issue the citation.

Couple months ago I took a lady fishing on the Madison Lakes. While I was attending to my boat getting it ready for launch, I gave her a wad of cash and asked her to by a single day launch permit. I didn't realize I gave her about $100 in cash and not being familiar with the procedure, she bought an annual permit for like $60! It was one of those drop box things - unattended.

Anyway, no big deal, I've since made it a great buy by lauching there numerous times and saving the $8 daily fee. Well I forgot to put the evelope tag in my window and came back with a $60 ticket for launching without a permit! $120 to launch a boat.....

Long story short, once my annual permit came in the mail, I photocopied it and sent a letter to the Monona Police Department and asked them to retract the ticket and fine. Bout 3 weeks later I got a nice, real signed letter from a lady in the Clerk's office telling me my ticket and fine have been reversed. This was even after I missed the fine due date waiting for my permit.

In Jersey, they would have taken my boat , condo and first born and .

[JoltinJoe]

Joe, your friend is a victim for sure. He primarily is a victim of New Jersey - really the east coast/new england - where corruption is rampant, especially in local government licensing and the construction and building trades. Practically everyone there is corrupt.

Man is a wolf to man - in New York/Jersey

My SIL built her office in Jersey and was ripped off and strong armed left and right by plumbers, carpenters - you name it - the worst were the building inspectors.

You don't see this stuff in the Midwest. If something like that happened here in Wisconsin, the townfolk would be raiding city hall with pitchforks and torches. Here, for the most part, government is afraid of people.

*I expect to get free food and drink at your buddy's waterin hole if I'm ever in Jersey.

The thought has crossed my mind that another restaurant owner in Union is better connected with city hall and isn't fond of the new competition.

Let me know if you ever get this way. His place is a lot of fun.

I'll tell you a funny story. September 1990, the Cadillar Bar is one of the hottest spots in Manhattan and our law firm is playing a softball game in Central Park. After the game, four lawyers and four female paralegals decide we want to go out for drinks, so I say what about the Cadillac Bar.

But one of the guy says no way, it's a Friday night and we'll never get it. I talk them into giving it a shot. So we jump into cabs,

We get there and there is a big line outside and we're told it's about 1 1/2 hours to be seated. So I ask the guy at the door to tell my buddy that I'm outside waiting to get it with 7 other people. This is when the place is often the place for celebrities to go for Tex-Mex. So the guy comes back and escorts us in.

This young paralegal just out of college and working with us all of three weeks, or so, grabs my hands and looks me straight in the eye, her blue/grey eyes expanding as if they are about to bulge out of her eye sockets, and says with awe, "How did you do that?"

I'm so in, I figure. Until we get inside -- sitting just a few tables away from us is JFK, Jr. And now it's like I don't even exist. The rest of the night these girls are trying to drink up enough courage to go over and say hello.

[D1B]

Joe, your friend is a victim for sure. He primarily is a victim of New Jersey - really the east coast/new england - where corruption is rampant, especially in local government licensing and the construction and building trades. Practically everyone there is corrupt.

Man is a wolf to man - in New York/Jersey

My SIL built her office in Jersey and was ripped off and strong armed left and right by plumbers, carpenters - you name it - the worst were the building inspectors.

You don't see this stuff in the Midwest. If something like that happened here in Wisconsin, the townfolk would be raiding city hall with pitchforks and torches. Here, for the most part, government is afraid of people.

*I expect to get free food and drink at your buddy's waterin hole if I'm ever in Jersey.

The thought has crossed my mind that another restaurant owner in Union is better connected with city hall and isn't fond of the new competition.

Let me know if you ever get this way. His place is a lot of fun.

I'll tell you a funny story. September 1990, the Cadillar Bar is one of the hottest spots in Manhattan and our law firm is playing a softball game in Central Park. After the game, four lawyers and four female paralegals decide we want to go out for drinks, so I say what about the Cadillac Bar.

But one of the guy says no way, it's a Friday night and we'll never get it. I talk them into giving it a shot. So we jump into cabs,

We get there and there is a big line outside and we're told it's about 1 1/2 hours to be seated. So I ask the guy at the door to tell my buddy that I'm outside waiting to get it with 7 other people. This is when the place is often the place for celebrities to go for Tex-Mex. So the guy comes back and escorts us in.

This young paralegal just out of college and working with us all of three weeks, or so, grabs my hands and looks me straight in the eye, her blue/grey eyes expanding as if they are about to bulge out of her eye sockets, and says with awe, "How did you do that?"

I'm so in, I figure. Until we get inside -- sitting just a few tables away from us is JFK, Jr. And now it's like I don't even exist. The rest of the night these girls are trying to drink up enough courage to go over and say hello.

Very cool and congrats to your friend.

Those motherfuckers are going to save America, not politicians or presidents.

[clenz]

I have to agree with Travis on this one. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Now, do I think the fine was excessive for the offense? Yep, I do.

That doesn't change the fact he needs to know all of the laws before he does things.

Clenzie! What happened to you? Unless there are other relevant facts of which we are unaware, this regulation is bullshiite and the bureaucrat should be fired!

Business people should be subject matter experts in their businesses, in this case things like food safety, employment law, marketing, food quality and public accomodation. They should NOT have to be experts on arcane and ridiculous city regulations.

NOT ONLY should the restaurateur not have to become a subject matter expert on such superfluous regulations, the city government should be grateful for the investment and do everything possible to help the entrepreneur succeed.

I'm not saying that I agree with the law, or the ticket. There are about 100000 others ways that could have been handled before a 10K ticket.

However, as the owner of the restaurant and the owner of the land he should know all the regulations he is going to have to follow. All I'm saying is that ignorance is not an excuse. There is a place, in a near by town i drive through every day during the summer when I coach, where the speed limit goes from 55 to 35. There isn't a visible sign, the cop told me there is a sign but I have yet to find it.

I got pulled over for doing 57 in a 35. Thankfully he let me off with a verbal warning. That also should have been the case stated by Joe as well. However, one of the first things he told me was "Ignorance is not an excusable reason for breaking the law."

I agree with him 100%, and knew that a head of time. So now, whenever I pull into a smaller town I slow down well before I have too

[OSBF]

This sounds alot like the crusty old veteran that thought he should be allowed to have a flagpole at his condo just because he is a vet. No-one is above the law. Break the law and there are consequences. It is the responsibility of the individual to know the law.

[89Hen]

However, as the owner of the restaurant and the owner of the land he should know all the regulations he is going to have to follow.

This regulation has little to do with owning a restaurant or business. It is not a hazardous violation, nor a common sense one, nor one that would require you hire somebody who might apply for a permit for you. It is NOT the job of a business owner to know a regulation like this. It is the job of the state or county employees to know it. A visit by the county or a letter telling them to remove it or face penalty is 100% the correct way to handle this.

[JoltinJoe]

However, as the owner of the restaurant and the owner of the land he should know all the regulations he is going to have to follow.

This regulation has little to do with owning a restaurant or business. It is not a hazardous violation, nor a common sense one, nor one that would require you hire somebody who might apply for a permit for you. It is NOT the job of a business owner to know a regulation like this. It is the job of the state or county employees to know it. A visit by the county or a letter telling them to remove it or face penalty is 100% the correct way to handle this.

You're right. The ordinance has nothing to do with public health or safety. It is simply one of those quality of life ordinances. The town doesn't want the appearance of its streets marred by people parking vehicles on lawns or on other surfaces in front of structures other than driveways.

A request to remove the car would have sufficed, with enforcement to follow if the request was ignored. A fine which represents several days of his gross receipts, without prior warning, is piggish (and probably the influence of some corrupt factor).

FWIW, though, the appearance of the downtown area was actually enhanced by this classic car in front of the structure, but then again, if you give one exception based on your subjective impression, you'll find others will park old jalopies and demand an exception too.

[89Hen]

but then again, if you give one exception based on your subjective impression, you'll find others will park old jalopies and demand an exception too.

precedent sucks sometimes

[kalm]

This regulation has little to do with owning a restaurant or business. It is not a hazardous violation, nor a common sense one, nor one that would require you hire somebody who might apply for a permit for you. It is NOT the job of a business owner to know a regulation like this. It is the job of the state or county employees to know it. A visit by the county or a letter telling them to remove it or face penalty is 100% the correct way to handle this.

You're right. The ordinance has nothing to do with public health or safety. It is simply one of those quality of life ordinances. The town doesn't want the appearance of its streets marred by people parking vehicles on lawns or on other surfaces in front of structures other than driveways.

A request to remove the car would have sufficed, with enforcement to follow if the request was ignored. A fine which represents several days of his gross receipts, without prior warning, is piggish (and probably the influence of some corrupt factor).

FWIW, though, the appearance of the downtown area was actually enhanced by this classic car in front of the structure, but then again, if you give one exception based on your subjective impression, you'll find others will park old jalopies and demand an exception too.

Interesting thread. How much of the political corruption argument is hyperbole? If it's really that bad back east than I find far less blame for the hatred of government. What D1B stated about the midwest is certainly true in my neck of the woods. That fine wouldn't have happened without many prior warnings and would be easily overturned with a couple of phone calls or letters.