mlbowl wrote:
If the ball itself goes out the back on a kickoff...it is most definitely NOT a safety. It is indeed a touchback!
Because it that case, it was never in play. Has to be touched by a player after the kickoff to be in play.
I googled safety and according to the rules, if the returner never enters the field of play then it is ruled a touchback.
"Not all of these scenarios result automatically in a safety. If a player on the defense gains possession of the ball in his own end zone through a fumble recovery or interception and is tackled there, it is a touchback, not a safety. If he makes an interception outside of the end zone, his momentum carries him into the end zone and he is tackled there, his team gets the ball at the spot of the interception. However, if a player gains possession of the ball and retreats on his own initiative into his end zone where he is tackled, it is a safety for the opposing team. Similar rules apply on punts and kickoffs. If the receiver of a punt or kick receives the ball and does not enter the field of play, and is tackled in own endzone the result is instead a touchback."
Last edited by mlbowl on Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. - Coach Finstock
Running into your own man, coverage, fumbles, etc. Not a good special team.
Hey, I didn't say they were doing particularly well, just that they're far from among the worst in Big Sky history. The ST look weak compared to most of recent Griz history, but they aren't any worse than they were during most of the Read era. I also think they're better than they were in 2000 (Glenn's first year) when the cover teams couldn't stop anyone & the Griz had to go with a walk-on punter.
I don't think Arbuckle is necessarily to blame. Based on Pflugrad's comments the last few weeks, the cover teams are razor thin due to injuries. McKnight isn't a great punter, but he's still the best option because Wren decided to get a case of the shanks. McKnight is doing great on field goals & kickoffs.
My father was a referee for 20+ years and he had never heard about the rule with the safety. He yelled touchback immediately.
But it didn't matter anyway. Same reason the Griz had a safety that was ruled differently too. When the NAU punter kicked it out of the endzone...safety. I was forced to do that twice in college and once in high school. Never was it ruled an "illegal" kick.
Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne
Willie wrote:My father was a referee for 20+ years and he had never heard about the rule with the safety. He yelled touchback immediately.
.
Exactly. If the receiver of the kick never enters the field of play, it should be ruled a touchback.
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. - Coach Finstock
Because it that case, it was never in play. Has to be touched by a player after the kickoff to be in play.
I googled safety and according to the rules, if the returner never enters the field of play then it is ruled a touchback.
"Not all of these scenarios result automatically in a safety. If a player on the defense gains possession of the ball in his own end zone through a fumble recovery or interception and is tackled there, it is a touchback, not a safety. If he makes an interception outside of the end zone, his momentum carries him into the end zone and he is tackled there, his team gets the ball at the spot of the interception. However, if a player gains possession of the ball and retreats on his own initiative into his end zone where he is tackled, it is a safety for the opposing team. Similar rules apply on punts and kickoffs. If the receiver of a punt or kick receives the ball and does not enter the field of play, and is tackled in own endzone the result is instead a touchback."
This doesn't say anything about having possession, and running out of the back of the end zone.
EWURanger wrote:If the ball goes out of the back of the end-zone......whether it is ran out, or the ball itself goes out (see the snap that went over EWU's punters head last year against the Griz), makes it a safety, period.
If the ball itself goes out the back on a kickoff...it is most definitely NOT a safety. It is indeed a touchback!
True dat. I was just going off what was described - I didn't know that it was on a kick-off. Hmmm...
That does sound like a touch-back situation to me.
Willie wrote:My father was a referee for 20+ years and he had never heard about the rule with the safety. He yelled touchback immediately.
But it didn't matter anyway. Same reason the Griz had a safety that was ruled differently too. When the NAU punter kicked it out of the endzone...safety. I was forced to do that twice in college and once in high school. Never was it ruled an "illegal" kick.
Does he ref HS? From what I understand, in HS, it would be a touchback...
Course, NAU should have had a safety on Johnson's "pass"
mlbowl wrote:
I googled safety and according to the rules, if the returner never enters the field of play then it is ruled a touchback.
"Not all of these scenarios result automatically in a safety. If a player on the defense gains possession of the ball in his own end zone through a fumble recovery or interception and is tackled there, it is a touchback, not a safety. If he makes an interception outside of the end zone, his momentum carries him into the end zone and he is tackled there, his team gets the ball at the spot of the interception. However, if a player gains possession of the ball and retreats on his own initiative into his end zone where he is tackled, it is a safety for the opposing team. Similar rules apply on punts and kickoffs. If the receiver of a punt or kick receives the ball and does not enter the field of play, and is tackled in own endzone the result is instead a touchback."
This doesn't say anything about having possession, and running out of the back of the end zone.
His momentum carried him out anyway...he didn't run out like a damn deer in the headlights.
Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne
dbackjon wrote:
This doesn't say anything about having possession, and running out of the back of the end zone.
Did the receiver of the kick EVER enter the field of play?...Touchback.
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. - Coach Finstock
mlbowl wrote:
If the ball itself goes out the back on a kickoff...it is most definitely NOT a safety. It is indeed a touchback!
True dat. I was just going off what was described - I didn't know that it was on a kick-off. Hmmm...
That does sound like a touch-back situation to me.
Sorry Ranger...I kind of figured you didn't know it was a KO return....AFTER i replied to your post
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. - Coach Finstock
Peems wrote:it was a safety, and it was coaching that lead to it. Petey should have just let it go. He directly led to 9 NAU points.
Kickoffs and punts are the exception to the safety rule...The ball never entered the field of play thus it is a touchback. But I agree, this shouldn't even be an issue because Nguyen shouldn't have been anywhere near that ball.
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. - Coach Finstock
SECTION 5. Safety
How Scored
ARTICLE 1. It is a safety when:
a. The ball becomes dead out of bounds behind a goal line, except from an
incomplete forward pass, or becomes dead in the possession of a player
on, above or behind his own goal line, or becomes dead by rule, and the
defending team is responsible for the ball being there (A.R. 6-3-1-IV and
V; A.R. 7-2-4-I; A.R. 8-5-1-I-III, VIII and XI; A.R. 8-7-2-V; and A.R.
9-4-1-IX).
When in question, it is a touchback, not a safety.
RULE 8-5 / SCORING FR-113
Exceptions:
1. When a Team B player intercepts a forward pass, fumble or backward
pass or catches a scrimmage or free kick between his five-yard line
and the goal line and the ball carrier’s original momentum carries
him into the end zone, where the ball is declared dead in his team’s
possession, the ball belongs to Team B at the spot where the pass or
fumble was intercepted or the kick was caught (A.R. 8-5-1-V-VII).
2. When a Team B player recovers an opponent’s fumble, backward
pass, scrimmage kick or free kick between his five-yard line and
the goal line and the ball carrier’s original momentum carries him
into the end zone, where the ball is declared dead in his team’s
possession, the ball belongs to Team B at the spot where the fumble,
backward pass or kick was recovered (A.R. 8-5-1-V).
3. When, after a change of team possession, a Team A player intercepts
an illegal forward pass, or intercepts or recovers a fumble or
backward pass between Team A’s five-yard line and the goal line, and
the ball carrier’s original momentum carries him into the end zone,
where the ball is declared dead in his team’s possession, the ball
belongs to Team A at the spot where the illegal forward pass, fumble
or backward pass was intercepted or recovered.
b. An accepted penalty for a foul leaves the ball on or behind the offending
team’s goal line (Exception: Rules 3-1-3-g-3 and 8-3-4-a) (A.R. 8-5-1-
IV and A.R. 10-2-2-VIII and IX).
Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne
Mvemjsunpx wrote:
the muff wasn't really his fault. Lisowski ran into Nguyen just before the ball got there.
Agree there, as well. Lisowski hit Nguyen.
Yeah that one was obvious.
Also got clarification on the NAU punter kicking the ball out of the endzone. Had it been just a bad snap and he kicked it out, it would have been a safety. But since it was blocked first, the Griz had the option to take the safety or the ball on the 1. They ended up with 3 points instead of 2.
Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne
"Sports writer Fritz Neighbor of the Missoulian newspaper served as a "pool reporter" for the media and met with the game’s referee, Lenau after the game to ask him about his call on the safety when Nguyen stepped out of the back of the end zone, and he admitted he had made a mistake.
"The ruling on the field was that the receiver caught the ball in the end zone and carried it out of the back of the end zone (for a safety)," Lenau said. "That ruling, we have since learned, was incorrect. So - we made a mistake. We apologize to the University of Montana.
When asked if there was any sort of group discussion of the rule to make sure the call was correct, Lenau said, "That did not happen. We were confident we had it right. We messed it up. I’m sure the Big Sky will come out and say we messed up. And we did. We don’t hide behind it.
There were enough botched calls in this one to kind of even it out IMHO. The only one that kind of bothered me was the KO safety, but shit happens. We had our chances and screwed up plenty, so did NAU. Untilmately I don't think the refs changed the outcome of the game this time.
-Go Griz!
-Class of '97
-Thank you to all our Veterans.
Not sure how anyone can say that was a safety because he "had possession". Think of all the times you've seen the return man go through the back of the endzone on longs kicks. Now think of how many times that was called a safety. Zero, until today
The officials even admitted they f#cked up the safety call after the game:
When asked if there was any sort of group discussion of the rule to make sure the call was correct, Lenau said, "That did not happen. We were confident we had it right. We messed it up. I’m sure the Big Sky will come out and say we messed up. And we did. We don’t hide behind it."
It is indeed a touchback!
