Felix Hernandez wins AL Cy Young

[Gil Dobie]

Maybe best stats = FCS champs, skip the playoffs.

Its an INDIVIDUAL AWARD.

It's a team sport, is Felix thanking his team-mates for all their support.

[BlueHen86]

Hernandez WAS the best pitcher in the AL.

He had the best stats and pitched best when his team was well out of contention. How would he pitch in a pennant race?

Doesn't matter. That isn't one of the criteria used in deciding the award. If Hernandez had won 30 games this year, the M's still would not have been in a pennant race. Are you saying that you would not vote for him even if that were the case?

[Gil Dobie]

He had the best stats and pitched best when his team was well out of contention. How would he pitch in a pennant race?

Doesn't matter. That isn't one of the criteria used in deciding the award. If Hernandez had won 30 games this year, the M's still would not have been in a pennant race. Are you saying that you would not vote for him even if that were the case?

If I thought he was the best pitcher. Price had a better first half than Felix, and a decent second half, even though he was in a pennant race. Felix was not the best pitcher, IMO, he had the best stats. Stats make sense when all conditions are equal.

[DJH]

Doesn't matter. That isn't one of the criteria used in deciding the award. If Hernandez had won 30 games this year, the M's still would not have been in a pennant race. Are you saying that you would not vote for him even if that were the case?

If I thought he was the best pitcher. Price had a better first half than Felix, and a decent second half, even though he was in a pennant race. Felix was not the best pitcher, IMO, he had the best stats. Stats make sense when all conditions are equal.

The only conditions that weren't equal were the offenses that support each of these pitchers. Felix's was all time bad, and Price had a great team behind him.

[Gil Dobie]

If I thought he was the best pitcher. Price had a better first half than Felix, and a decent second half, even though he was in a pennant race. Felix was not the best pitcher, IMO, he had the best stats. Stats make sense when all conditions are equal.

The only conditions that weren't equal were the offenses that support each of these pitchers. Felix's was all time bad, and Price had a great team behind him.

So Price having a lower ERA before the All-Star game than Felix, was because he had a great team behind him?

[DJH]

The only conditions that weren't equal were the offenses that support each of these pitchers. Felix's was all time bad, and Price had a great team behind him.

So Price having a lower ERA before the All-Star game than Felix, was because he had a great team behind him?

All Star break? Who gives a fuck about that?

You do realize this award is for the whole season right?

And besides, I thought stats like ERA didn't matter?

[Gil Dobie]

So Price having a lower ERA before the All-Star game than Felix, was because he had a great team behind him?

All Star break? Who gives a **** about that?

You do realize this award is for the whole season right?

And besides, I thought stats like ERA didn't matter?

And I didn't say they didn't matter, you are in spin mode, just said Felix was the stat king, and there is more to judging a pitcher than stats. That means stats matter, but not entirely. Put Felix in a pennant race, on the Yankees or Tampa Bay staff and see if he ends up with the same stats. Probably not, because there is pressure pitching in a pennant race that Felix did not have to deal with.

[Shellin]

And I didn't say they didn't matter, you are in spin mode, just said Felix was the stat king, and there is more to judging a pitcher than stats. That means stats matter, but not entirely. Put Felix in a pennant race, on the Yankees or Tampa Bay staff and see if he ends up with the same stats. Probably not, because there is pressure pitching in a pennant race that Felix did not have to deal with.

Put Price or C.C. in the situation where they lose if they give up more than 1 run and see if they end up with the same number of wins. We can go back and forth arguing this thing forever. Stats matter. Wins matter. 21 of the 28 voters decided that Felix's resume was more impressive than either Price or C.C. I would tend to trust the experts that voted on the award as opposed to a Yankees homer or a Mariners homer (like myself).

[Gil Dobie]

And I didn't say they didn't matter, you are in spin mode, just said Felix was the stat king, and there is more to judging a pitcher than stats. That means stats matter, but not entirely. Put Felix in a pennant race, on the Yankees or Tampa Bay staff and see if he ends up with the same stats. Probably not, because there is pressure pitching in a pennant race that Felix did not have to deal with.

Put Price or C.C. in the situation where they lose if they give up more than 1 run and see if they end up with the same number of wins. We can go back and forth arguing this thing forever. Stats matter. Wins matter. 21 of the 28 voters decided that Felix's resume was more impressive than either Price or C.C. I would tend to trust the experts that voted on the award as opposed to a Yankees homer or a Mariners homer (like myself).

That's one think that kind of bugs me, people keep pointing to Seattle's inept offense, Felix didn't always need to hold a team to 1 run, aka Mariners scoring 17 runs in 3 starts vs Yankees. Sure Seattle had a lot of games where they scored less, but an average doesn't make it true for every game. That's all I'm saying is I didn't think Felix was the best pitcher just because of the stats. There were some "experts" that agreed. As a Detroit Tigers fan, I say congrats to Felix.

[DJH]

Here is how you define a lack of offensive support: Seattle has totaled 10 runs in Hernandez's 10 losses. The Mariners have averaged 3.3 runs in his 30 starts—the second-lowest run support in the AL—which incredibly is more than they have averaged in all their games (3.2 runs per game).

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=tsn-167075

[DJH]

The Mariners' offense was historically bad - the 513 runs it scored this year was the fewest by an AL team in a non-strike-shortened season in 39 years, and they scored two or fewer runs in 15 of Hernandez's starts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 06671.html

[Gil Dobie]

The Mariners' offense was historically bad - the 513 runs it scored this year was the fewest by an AL team in a non-strike-shortened season in 39 years, and they scored two or fewer runs in 15 of Hernandez's starts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 06671.html

Felix was also 2-6, giving up 34 runs in 11 games with an ERA over 4.00 vs Texas and LA in his own division against teams that faced him the most. That's half his losses, and 1/3 of the games he started. Not sure it was the fault of Seattle's offense in these games.

[JoltinJoe]

Gil, we're wasting our time. The concept of baseball as a match sport is lost on these younger, "hip" guys. It's all about the numbers derived from the game; not the game itself. Everything goes into the stew, and we create some "average" which tells us everything we need to know -- except who won or lost. They have played so much fantasy baseball, where numbers are compiled but no two teams in the league actually compete head-to-head, and they view baseball through that prism.

I suppose in the end it's harmless, although I do find it funny that a "pro" like Roy Halladay will say, when asked about Cy Young, that you have to find a way to win. But every here knows better.

I played ball on some serious Legion and HS teams, and I was taught a different perspective. We knew that if a starter was getting decisions and getting wins, he generally was eating innings, getting deep into games, and out-matching the other starter. Every start, a starter tries to accomplish those objectives, and if he does that more often than any pitcher in the league, then he's the best as I see it.

Statball is the new era. But since I'm on a roll, what about the "closer?" What BS. It's all about the "saves" stat.

In days past, the best guy in your bullpen was your "fireman," a guy like Goose Gossage, and you used him to get you out of tight jam, whenever that happened after the 5th or 6th innings.

Your starter has gone into 7th, has a one-run lead, and has loaded the bases with one? You didn't call in some 3.75 ERA, top-to-middle of the bullpen guy. You called in your fireman, your No. 1 arm, and looked for the K and then a pop-out; maybe have him go the 8th -- because that's when the game is going to be won or lost. And then bring in your second or third best guy to do the 9th, after your fireman has saved the day.

Any decent bullpen guy should be able to pitch one scoreless inning more often than not, if he starts the inning clean.

I don't know how many games, even playoff games, I've watched where the No. 1 guys sits as the middle of the bullpen blows up in the "fireman's role." And then in the 9th, they don't even use the closer, because they're now losing.

[GannonFan]

Admit, Joe, you're old and now the music is too loud.

[JoltinJoe]

Admit, Joe, you're old and now the music is too loud.

True.

And those little effers better not land their ball in my yard, or I'm going to keep it.

[SuperHornet]

Felix Hernandez wins AL Cy Young

Who?

Seriously, here in Liveable, Loveable Lodi (yes, that's actually our city motto), all we ever hear in the paper and on TV is Lincecum, Lincecum, Lincecum, and MORE Lincecum, as if other pitchers don't even exist. Our local A&W franchise owner even dressed up as Lincecum for Halloween, complete with dreads. I'm sick of it.

[ToTheLeft]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 06671.html

Felix was also 2-6, giving up 34 runs in 11 games with an ERA over 4.00 vs Texas and LA in his own division against teams that faced him the most. That's half his losses, and 1/3 of the games he started. Not sure it was the fault of Seattle's offense in these games.

ERA over 4 is average. With a decent team, you win half the games you pitch giving up 4 a game.

And he went 6-1 against the AL East with some ridiculously low ERA. So sure he wasn't in a pennant race, but he sure did beat up on those in a pennant race.

[ToTheLeft]

Also, if we're going to bring this down to baseball in it's purest form, shouldn't the best pitcher simply be the one who gives up the fewest runs?

Wins are not solely on the pitchers shoulders. They don't control the offense or the defense behind them. But they are mostly (I'd say 80-90%) responsible for the amount of earned runs they allow. So why do "get off my lawn with your newfangled saber nonsense" people decide wins are worth hanging on to, when truly, ERA is the best way to determine how well a pitcher actually did, rather than how well his team did?

If CC and Felix gave up the exact same amount of runs in the same innings this season, CC would have had at least 8 more wins based on the team around him. I don't see how that's indicative of "best pitcher".

[JMU DJ]

Felix Hernandez wins AL Cy Young

Who?

Really? Is that a serious question? Do you know any other pitchers besides Lincecum? Are you aware that Lincecum pitchers in a totally different league?






Also, called this preseason. Halladay and Hernandez as Cy Young winners.

[JoltinJoe]

Also, if we're going to bring this down to baseball in it's purest form, shouldn't the best pitcher simply be the one who gives up the fewest runs?

No, the best pitcher is the pitcher who is the better of two pitchers, on given nights, most often.

[ToTheLeft]

Also, if we're going to bring this down to baseball in it's purest form, shouldn't the best pitcher simply be the one who gives up the fewest runs?

No, the best pitcher is the pitcher who is the better of two pitchers, on given nights, most often.

Yeah, because the pitcher controls that.

[JoltinJoe]

No, the best pitcher is the pitcher who is the better of two pitchers, on given nights, most often.

Yeah, because the pitcher controls that.

Uh, of course he does.

Are we talking about the same game? I'm talking about baseball ...

[DJH]

Yeah, because the pitcher controls that.

Uh, of course he does.

Are we talking about the same game? I'm talking about baseball ...

Felix had to be "better" on a given night than CC or price did to earn a win.

[ToTheLeft]

So Felix Hernandez, who has the smallest defensive responsibility on the team, and absolutely NO input on the offense, has to go out and pitch twice as good as the other pitcher, because his offense is half as good as the other team's offense, just to get a win and earn respect?

THE PITCHER.

CAN ONLY.

PITCH.

Wins decide who go to the playoffs, and the Yankees have gone to them a lot. We get it, Joe. Yankee mentality, win games. We all get it, trust me.

Pitchers don't decide who win games on their own. I've stated it a million times. Anyone can get a win for pitching as good or bad as they want. It all depends on the game situation. Average stats, even simple ones like WHIP and ERA, tell the whole story, how good a pitcher does for the whole season, in every situation.

I know none of this will sway your opinion. I just wish you'd actually address any of this with something other than just "math league" comments, and say why someone who gives up the least runs, walks, and hits ISN'T the best pitcher. This isn't even about SABR stats. Felix was the best pitcher, the most basic of stats prove that. His team was TERRIBLE.

[ToTheLeft]

And CC shouldn't have won the Cy Young, since clearly Jake Arieta was a better pitcher than him...

Proof: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=300907110" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, James Shields was better: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=300801130" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and Dallas Braden: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=300422111" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and Josh Tomlin: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=300727105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What kind of Cy Young winner is beaten by pitchers like that so regularly? I'm glad he didn't win, he didn't deserve it at all, if you look at wins and losses.

/Sarcasm