Why the Rich Pay More in Taxes

[kalm]

Again, try having kids. You have no idea.

Sounds like you "chose poorly"
Good luck - we are raising a nation of little mass consumers who believe that piles of stuff is the norm

Tell me about it. But I wouldn't trade the family for anything in the world. Believe me, I'm fighting the anti consumerism fight with every ounce of my fiber. There's still hope.

[Chizzang]

Sounds like you "chose poorly"
Good luck - we are raising a nation of little mass consumers who believe that piles of stuff is the norm

Tell me about it. But I wouldn't trade the family for anything in the world. Believe me, I'm fighting the anti consumerism fight with every ounce of my fiber. There's still hope.

Do not resist...
All you need is a middle management position piles of stuff and debt up to your ass and you too can have the American Dream... and if you're lucky you can pass that heritage on to your children

Want more than you need
spend more than you have
believe in your every fiber that a car is more than transportation it's a statement about you
Hold dear the myth that a house far beyond your means is critical to your future success
Getting married is actually "important" even though 52% end in divorce and 68% are unhappy
Having kids is a sacred honor bestowed on the righteous (or something like that) 6 billion and counting

I think I'm going to write a book called "Re-thinking the America Dream"

[OL FU]

contrary to popular myth I also do not have an iron

I'm crushed

[89Hen]

Alan Watts nailed it:

Pretty good there skjelly!

Not IMO. It leaves out one very important piece... you can play and enjoy the music while you're on the track.

[Skjellyfetti]

Not IMO. It leaves out one very important piece... you can play and enjoy the music while you're on the track.

You got me here. No idea what you're talking about. Best guess is "on the track" = heroin?

[JohnStOnge]

Didn't we already have a discussion of that study on this board? Maybe it was on the other once but it'd have had to be snuck in since they don't have a political wing anymore.

I think that if people think there is some ideal or desirable weaith distribution they are wrong.

Like what if I have two situations. One is one in which another guy and I control a certain amount of wealth with him having 99% of it and me having 1% of it. Another is one in which we each have 50%. But the fact that I have as much as the other guy does in the second scenario does not mean I'm better off. If the total amount of wealth in the first scenario is a million dollars I've got $10,000. If the total amount in the second scenario is $1,000 I've got $500. Should I prefer $500 over $10,000 just because I don't want someone else to have $990,000?

Aside from that, the idea that one person has a right to the wealth generated by another person is bogus. If one guy has the brains and drive to go to medical school, become a great surgeon, and make $500,000 per year he has earned that. Some other guy who didn't have the brains and/or drive or desire to do the same thing does not have any right to anything the first guy has earned just because of some fantasy about how wealth should be distributed.

Wealth is not something dropped out of the sky by God, like some great pie that was given to mankind. Wealth is generated. There is no fixed amount. One person having more wealth does not mean other people are necessarily limited to less wealth over the long term. It's often the manifestation of someone's talent and efforts. It's not like mommy came in with 20 bon bons and gave 19 to one kid while giving only 1 to the other.

[YoUDeeMan]

First
You'll need to work on your basic math skills
600 plus 1000 = 1600 (not 1900)

Second
It's not that I don't have "things'
Indeed if you considered my meager possessions in comparison to your average American I have very little - but - in comparison to your average human on earth I have an abundance (an over abundance)

It's all perspective

I see you are very attached to your ideology
But there is nothing that keeps any American from living with less "stuff" we all could do it if we chose - instead - we choose to be the worlds largest consumers... Kids and jobs and money have nothing to do with choosing to live with less crap and less debt... I live well within my means - most Americans live far beyond their means and look to buy more and own more and get more and have more

More - more - more

There is nothing keeping us from having less and deciding to live smaller... Nothing
I consider our rampant consumerism a kind of insanity
A neurotic compulsion that at it's core leads to unhappiness

Hmmmmm...I am attached to what ideology?

Hey, I make money off of other people spending...but it doesn't make me believe that is the correct ideology. It just makes me a person who makes money off other's obvious behaviors. And I am not buying your theory that the gathering of things leading to unhappiness. You are looking at a symptom, not a cause.

As for you, as you said, you have a lot more than most...so stop the silly idea that you are not a consumer.

[Skjellyfetti]

As for you, as you said, you have a lot more than most...so stop the silly idea that you are not a consumer.

I don't mean to speak for him... but, I don't think he said he isn't a consumer. He said he is against consumerism.

[YoUDeeMan]

As for you, as you said, you have a lot more than most...so stop the silly idea that you are not a consumer.

I don't mean to speak for him... but, I don't think he said he isn't a consumer. He said he is against consumerism.

Consumers practice consumerism...just at different levels. Cleets has more than most on this planet.

[Skjellyfetti]

Consumers practice consumerism...just at different levels.

Not in the sense Cleets was using it: "a preoccupation with and an inclination toward the buying of consumer goods"

Almost everyone is a consumer... only a small percentage are consumerists/materialists.

[houndawg]

Didn't we already have a discussion of that study on this board? Maybe it was on the other once but it'd have had to be snuck in since they don't have a political wing anymore.

I think that if people think there is some ideal or desirable weaith distribution they are wrong.

Like what if I have two situations. One is one in which another guy and I control a certain amount of wealth with him having 99% of it and me having 1% of it. Another is one in which we each have 50%. But the fact that I have as much as the other guy does in the second scenario does not mean I'm better off. If the total amount of wealth in the first scenario is a million dollars I've got $10,000. If the total amount in the second scenario is $1,000 I've got $500. Should I prefer $500 over $10,000 just because I don't want someone else to have $990,000?

Aside from that, the idea that one person has a right to the wealth generated by another person is bogus. If one guy has the brains and drive to go to medical school, become a great surgeon, and make $500,000 per year he has earned that. Some other guy who didn't have the brains and/or drive or desire to do the same thing does not have any right to anything the first guy has earned just because of some fantasy about how wealth should be distributed.

Wealth is not something dropped out of the sky by God, like some great pie that was given to mankind. Wealth is generated. There is no fixed amount. One person having more wealth does not mean other people are necessarily limited to less wealth over the long term. It's often the manifestation of someone's talent and efforts. It's not like mommy came in with 20 bon bons and gave 19 to one kid while giving only 1 to the other.

Stuff and nonsense, John. There isn't a factory owner on the planet who agrees with that statement.


This thread is a masterpiece of frucking a fly's azz. The simple fact is that the rich pay more in taxes because it isn't very lucrative to tax people that don't have any money.

[OL FU]

"Tax the Rich
Feed the poor
Til there are no
Rich no more"

Alvin Lee 1970

Damn I'm getting hungry

[Chizzang]

I don't mean to speak for him... but, I don't think he said he isn't a consumer. He said he is against consumerism.

Consumers practice consumerism...just at different levels. Cleets has more than most on this planet.

I have an abundance (that much is obvious)
Especially considering that almost one billion humans on earth don't even have access to safe drinking water

Cluck is a little fuzzy on what "consumerism" is...
but that's okay it makes for a fun (but long) conversation

Apparently by recognizing that I have an abundance in relation (relative) to so many other humans on Earth is the same as being a rampant consumerist - however - compared to your average French garment factory worker or Moroccan fisherman I am a HUGE consumer...

but compared to your average American I am an oddity

* About 46% of American families spend more than they earn each year (2008)
* Average households carry some $9,000 in credit card debt (2003)
* Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade (2005)

American consumers owe well over $2 trillion today
It was $1.9773 trillion in October 2003, according to the latest statistics on consumer credit from the Federal Reserve. That's about $18,654 per household, a figure that doesnt include mortgage debt. The number is up more than 41% from the $1.3999 trillion consumers owed in 1998.

[kalm]

* About 46% of American families spend more than they earn each year (2008)
* Average households carry some $9,000 in credit card debt (2003)
* Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade (2005)

American consumers owe well over $2 trillion today
It was $1.9773 trillion in October 2003, according to the latest statistics on consumer credit from the Federal Reserve. That's about $18,654 per household, a figure that doesnt include mortgage debt. The number is up more than 41% from the $1.3999 trillion consumers owed in 1998.

Welcome to supply side economics. We'll artifically create demand while paying you less but need you to spend more to drive perpetual growth.

[89Hen]

Not IMO. It leaves out one very important piece... you can play and enjoy the music while you're on the track.

You got me here. No idea what you're talking about. Best guess is "on the track" = heroin?

I prefer "stop to smell the roses along the way". Watts makes it sound like schooling and careers serve no purpose. Not everyone can be a philosopher and experiment with LSD for a living.

[Skjellyfetti]

I prefer "stop to smell the roses along the way". Watts makes it sound like schooling and careers serve no purpose.

I think "stopping to smell the roses along the way" is precisely what Watts is saying. He's not saying you should drop out from society, sit on a mountaintop and contemplate God. He's not endorsing hedonism. Schooling and careers serve a purpose... but, the purpose isn't the end result. The purpose of going to school isn't to get a piece of paper that says you graduate college.

[89Hen]

I think "stopping to smell the roses along the way" is precisely what Watts is saying. He's not saying you should drop out from society, sit on a mountaintop and contemplate God. He's not endorsing hedonism. Schooling and careers serve a purpose... but, the purpose isn't the end result. The purpose of going to school isn't to get a piece of paper that says you graduate college.

I agree that's what it should mean, but I don't think that's how it comes across, at least in that clip. Maybe I need a longer clip from that reading.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I think "stopping to smell the roses along the way" is precisely what Watts is saying. He's not saying you should drop out from society, sit on a mountaintop and contemplate God. He's not endorsing hedonism. Schooling and careers serve a purpose... but, the purpose isn't the end result. The purpose of going to school isn't to get a piece of paper that says you graduate college.

I agree that's what it should mean, but I don't think that's how it comes across, at least in that clip. Maybe I need a longer clip from that reading.

You may just need to look at it from a different perspective 89. Everybody has their own interpretation I guess but I really took it as more of a "stop & smell the roses" type thing.

Education or anything only has value if the person doing it thinks it has value and treats it as valuable instead of treating it like a stepping stone to get a piece of paper to truck on with your life. Of course that goes along with what I think anyway so maybe I molded it to my belief.

[OL FU]

* About 46% of American families spend more than they earn each year (2008)
* Average households carry some $9,000 in credit card debt (2003)
* Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade (2005)

American consumers owe well over $2 trillion today
It was $1.9773 trillion in October 2003, according to the latest statistics on consumer credit from the Federal Reserve. That's about $18,654 per household, a figure that doesnt include mortgage debt. The number is up more than 41% from the $1.3999 trillion consumers owed in 1998.

Welcome to supply side economics. We'll artifically create demand while paying you less but need you to spend more to drive perpetual growth.

Sorry, It's Keynesian. Create the permanant boom. Money is the root of all evil unless you are printing or borrowing or spending it.


But it was a good try

[YoUDeeMan]

I have an abundance (that much is obvious)
Especially considering that almost one billion humans on earth don't even have access to safe drinking water

Cluck is a little fuzzy on what "consumerism" is...
but that's okay it makes for a fun (but long) conversation

Apparently by recognizing that I have an abundance in relation (relative) to so many other humans on Earth is the same as being a rampant consumerist - however - compared to your average French garment factory worker or Moroccan fisherman I am a HUGE consumer...

but compared to your average American I am an oddity

* About 46% of American families spend more than they earn each year (2008)
* Average households carry some $9,000 in credit card debt (2003)
* Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade (2005)

American consumers owe well over $2 trillion today
It was $1.9773 trillion in October 2003, according to the latest statistics on consumer credit from the Federal Reserve. That's about $18,654 per household, a figure that doesnt include mortgage debt. The number is up more than 41% from the $1.3999 trillion consumers owed in 1998.

So, 54%, a majority, dont spend more than they earn each year...and you consider yourself an "oddity"?

As you noted, your stats are old...and deceptive. Care to guess what percentage pay off their balance each month? Care to guess whether that number is going up or down? How many people have credit cards? How many actually use their cards? How many use debit cards? Lots of information out there...not all of it gloom and doom "consumerism". In fact, you'll find a majority of people are not the bloated "keep up with the Jones" types...but don't let that spoil your rant.

Now, back to "consumerism". Lots of definitions, and you can always find some hoitie-toitie- person who likes to think they are above the fray. You might not collect many things...although we've already discovered that you and your girlfriend have a bit more things than most (and you never did answer whether she has a few collectibles or not), but you sure enjoy consuming things. How many times do you fly per year? Where? For what? Hmmmm...kinda' makes that bike comment seem a bit silly. Do you cook at home or do you eat out often?

Yup, all sorts of ways to be into consumerism.

[CID1990]

Cleets isn't an oddity, he's just odd.

[Chizzang]

I have an abundance (that much is obvious)
Especially considering that almost one billion humans on earth don't even have access to safe drinking water

Cluck is a little fuzzy on what "consumerism" is...
but that's okay it makes for a fun (but long) conversation

Apparently by recognizing that I have an abundance in relation (relative) to so many other humans on Earth is the same as being a rampant consumerist - however - compared to your average French garment factory worker or Moroccan fisherman I am a HUGE consumer...

but compared to your average American I am an oddity

* About 46% of American families spend more than they earn each year (2008)
* Average households carry some $9,000 in credit card debt (2003)
* Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade (2005)

American consumers owe well over $2 trillion today
It was $1.9773 trillion in October 2003, according to the latest statistics on consumer credit from the Federal Reserve. That's about $18,654 per household, a figure that doesnt include mortgage debt. The number is up more than 41% from the $1.3999 trillion consumers owed in 1998.

So, 54%, a majority, dont spend more than they earn each year...and you consider yourself an "oddity"?

As you noted, your stats are old...and deceptive. Care to guess what percentage pay off their balance each month? Care to guess whether that number is going up or down? How many people have credit cards? How many actually use their cards? How many use debit cards? Lots of information out there...not all of it gloom and doom "consumerism". In fact, you'll find a majority of people are not the bloated "keep up with the Jones" types...but don't let that spoil your rant.

Now, back to "consumerism". Lots of definitions, and you can always find some hoitie-toitie- person who likes to think they are above the fray. You might not collect many things...although we've already discovered that you and your girlfriend have a bit more things than most (and you never did answer whether she has a few collectibles or not), but you sure enjoy consuming things. How many times do you fly per year? Where? For what? Hmmmm...kinda' makes that bike comment seem a bit silly. Do you cook at home or do you eat out often?

Yup, all sorts of ways to be into consumerism.

I must have hit pretty close to a nerve there...

[houndawg]

So, 54%, a majority, dont spend more than they earn each year...and you consider yourself an "oddity"?

As you noted, your stats are old...and deceptive. Care to guess what percentage pay off their balance each month? Care to guess whether that number is going up or down? How many people have credit cards? How many actually use their cards? How many use debit cards? Lots of information out there...not all of it gloom and doom "consumerism". In fact, you'll find a majority of people are not the bloated "keep up with the Jones" types...but don't let that spoil your rant.

Now, back to "consumerism". Lots of definitions, and you can always find some hoitie-toitie- person who likes to think they are above the fray. You might not collect many things...although we've already discovered that you and your girlfriend have a bit more things than most (and you never did answer whether she has a few collectibles or not), but you sure enjoy consuming things. How many times do you fly per year? Where? For what? Hmmmm...kinda' makes that bike comment seem a bit silly. Do you cook at home or do you eat out often?

Yup, all sorts of ways to be into consumerism.

I must have hit pretty close to a nerve there...

I'd say so.......

Dude called you "hoitie toitie".

[Ivytalk]

For the same reason people rob banks.

[kalm]

For the same reason people rob banks.