Some Perspective on Massive Gulf Dead Zone: Agriculture

[kalm]

Man, you guys are really delusional about what a "farmer" is today. I applaud your romantic, but dated and un-realistic notion. Today, a "farmer" is the owner of a large corporation that uses the land as its "factory" to produce a product. They never get any mud or dirt on their own boots, they pay people to do that. They own/manage thousands of acres and answer to a single large investor or a board of directors. They are HEAVILY govt subsidised, and set up shadow corporations and entities to get around govt payment limits."cheap" farmland in our area is now selling for $8500/ac on the low end. The "family" farm is a distant memory, the big business of farming has made sure the little guy can't play the game anymore.

Wanna know who gets how much government "cheese"? Here's an interesting link:

http://farm.ewg.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you can search by state/county, name, type of subsidy, etc etc.

The $$$$ some of these mega corporate farms are getting in the form of a govt corporate welfare check is disgusting.
Even more revolting is that, at least in Illinois, these huge mega corporations are tax exempt.

Yeah, being a "farmer" is a pretty good gig, if you can get it.

See?

[Wedgebuster]

OB, any farmer that "over fertilizes" has been out of business for years. You just can't afford to toss gobs of expensive chemicals around and expect to stay in business. Today's farmers must get soil analysis done, and prescribed application needed amendments is accurately applied, and recorded in the applicators GPS equipped computer system as Gil detailed.

We are all guilty of using our rivers as sewers, and what comes off our lawns, driveways, and streets may be as bad as what comes through the sewer systems, feedlots, and agricultural fields.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Man, you guys are really delusional about what a "farmer" is today. I applaud your romantic, but dated and un-realistic notion. Today, a "farmer" is the owner of a large corporation that uses the land as its "factory" to produce a product. They never get any mud or dirt on their own boots, they pay people to do that. They own/manage thousands of acres and answer to a single large investor or a board of directors. They are HEAVILY govt subsidised, and set up shadow corporations and entities to get around govt payment limits."cheap" farmland in our area is now selling for $8500/ac on the low end. The "family" farm is a distant memory, the big business of farming has made sure the little guy can't play the game anymore.

Wanna know who gets how much government "cheese"? Here's an interesting link:

http://farm.ewg.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you can search by state/county, name, type of subsidy, etc etc.

The $$$$ some of these mega corporate farms are getting in the form of a govt corporate welfare check is disgusting.
Even more revolting is that, at least in Illinois, these huge mega corporations are tax exempt.

Yeah, being a "farmer" is a pretty good gig, if you can get it.

Hey thanks for enlightening those of us that have family in it or are actually doing it numbnuts.

You think that's fucking news to us?

We're talking about farmers, your talking about corporate farming. There is a big fucking difference there Mr. Know It All.

[andy7171]

Careful guys, OBSF likes to throw wild made up stories when surrounded to prove his point.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Careful guys, OBSF likes to throw wild made up stories when surrounded to prove his point.

I love stories.

Doesn't really matter since he can't follow what me, Cluck, kalm,& Gil were talking about in the first place. Just jumping in with an unrelated point about "Corporate Farming Sucks MAAAAAAAANN!!!".

[Gil Dobie]

Man, you guys are really delusional about what a "farmer" is today. I applaud your romantic, but dated and un-realistic notion. Today, a "farmer" is the owner of a large corporation that uses the land as its "factory" to produce a product. They never get any mud or dirt on their own boots, they pay people to do that. They own/manage thousands of acres and answer to a single large investor or a board of directors. They are HEAVILY govt subsidised, and set up shadow corporations and entities to get around govt payment limits."cheap" farmland in our area is now selling for $8500/ac on the low end. The "family" farm is a distant memory, the big business of farming has made sure the little guy can't play the game anymore.

Wanna know who gets how much government "cheese"? Here's an interesting link:

http://farm.ewg.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you can search by state/county, name, type of subsidy, etc etc.

The $$$$ some of these mega corporate farms are getting in the form of a govt corporate welfare check is disgusting.
Even more revolting is that, at least in Illinois, these huge mega corporations are tax exempt.

Yeah, being a "farmer" is a pretty good gig, if you can get it.

I haven't seen this much manure since I was standing in the barn, knee deep, shoveling it out the door. Interesting that conservation land is 2nd on your list I looked at, when no farming is done on that land for 99 years, which is good for the environment.

[OSBF]

OB, any farmer that "over fertilizes" has been out of business for years. You just can't afford to toss gobs of expensive chemicals around and expect to stay in business. Today's farmers must get soil analysis done, and prescribed application needed amendments is accurately applied, and recorded in the applicators GPS equipped computer system as Gil detailed.

We are all guilty of using our rivers as sewers, and what comes off our lawns, driveways, and streets may be as bad as what comes through the sewer systems, feedlots, and agricultural fields.

I really wish that was the truth. We were working with a guy the other day that between hog manure, UAN, and NH4 applied about 500 lb/ac of nitrogen. His crop nutrient buget called for about 130 lb.

his excuse.................

well, I didn't want to run out of N....................

[Gil Dobie]

OB, any farmer that "over fertilizes" has been out of business for years. You just can't afford to toss gobs of expensive chemicals around and expect to stay in business. Today's farmers must get soil analysis done, and prescribed application needed amendments is accurately applied, and recorded in the applicators GPS equipped computer system as Gil detailed.

We are all guilty of using our rivers as sewers, and what comes off our lawns, driveways, and streets may be as bad as what comes through the sewer systems, feedlots, and agricultural fields.

I really wish that was the truth. We were working with a guy the other day that between hog manure, UAN, and NH4 applied about 500 lb/ac of nitrogen. His crop nutrient buget called for about 130 lb.

his excuse.................

well, I didn't want to run out of N....................

Did he waste it? Not wanting to run out, and wasting it are 2 different things.

[OSBF]

Man, you guys are really delusional about what a "farmer" is today. I applaud your romantic, but dated and un-realistic notion. Today, a "farmer" is the owner of a large corporation that uses the land as its "factory" to produce a product. They never get any mud or dirt on their own boots, they pay people to do that. They own/manage thousands of acres and answer to a single large investor or a board of directors. They are HEAVILY govt subsidised, and set up shadow corporations and entities to get around govt payment limits."cheap" farmland in our area is now selling for $8500/ac on the low end. The "family" farm is a distant memory, the big business of farming has made sure the little guy can't play the game anymore.

Wanna know who gets how much government "cheese"? Here's an interesting link:

http://farm.ewg.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you can search by state/county, name, type of subsidy, etc etc.

The $$$$ some of these mega corporate farms are getting in the form of a govt corporate welfare check is disgusting.
Even more revolting is that, at least in Illinois, these huge mega corporations are tax exempt.

Yeah, being a "farmer" is a pretty good gig, if you can get it.

Hey thanks for enlightening those of us that have family in it or are actually doing it numbnuts.

You think that's fucking news to us?

We're talking about farmers, your talking about corporate farming. There is a big fucking difference there Mr. Know It All.

the family farm of which you speak is all but dead, very soon will be dead

I work with 7 different producers in my county alone that are over 10,000 acres each, and a bucket full of others over 5000 acres. All are corporations. As grandpa dies off, the land just ends up in the control of one of these land corporations. The heirs want to cash out, and the small local family farm isn't a player as land prices approach 10K per acre.

I don't like it either, but it is the landscape we're in today.

[OSBF]

I really wish that was the truth. We were working with a guy the other day that between hog manure, UAN, and NH4 applied about 500 lb/ac of nitrogen. His crop nutrient buget called for about 130 lb.

his excuse.................

well, I didn't want to run out of N....................

Did he waste it? Not wanting to run out, and wasting it are 2 different things.

Growing corn takes about .8 lbs of N to make 1bu. Lets say he grows 200 bu/ac corn, which uses 160 lb/ac/N.

You tell me where the other 340 lb/ac of N ended up.

[OSBF]

Man, you guys are really delusional about what a "farmer" is today. I applaud your romantic, but dated and un-realistic notion. Today, a "farmer" is the owner of a large corporation that uses the land as its "factory" to produce a product. They never get any mud or dirt on their own boots, they pay people to do that. They own/manage thousands of acres and answer to a single large investor or a board of directors. They are HEAVILY govt subsidised, and set up shadow corporations and entities to get around govt payment limits."cheap" farmland in our area is now selling for $8500/ac on the low end. The "family" farm is a distant memory, the big business of farming has made sure the little guy can't play the game anymore.

Wanna know who gets how much government "cheese"? Here's an interesting link:

http://farm.ewg.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you can search by state/county, name, type of subsidy, etc etc.

The $$$$ some of these mega corporate farms are getting in the form of a govt corporate welfare check is disgusting.
Even more revolting is that, at least in Illinois, these huge mega corporations are tax exempt.

Yeah, being a "farmer" is a pretty good gig, if you can get it.

I haven't seen this much manure since I was standing in the barn, knee deep, shoveling it out the door. Interesting that conservation land is 2nd on your list I looked at, when no farming is done on that land for 99 years, which is good for the environment.

What are you talking about?

You'll have to give me a screen shot or something. I have no idea what "list" your talking about, or what you mean by "conservation land" and not being farmed for 99 years.

There are no subsidy payments for anything like that.

What county in ND are you from?

[Gil Dobie]

Did he waste it? Not wanting to run out, and wasting it are 2 different things.

Growing corn takes about .8 lbs of N to make 1bu. Lets say he grows 200 bu/ac corn, which uses 160 lb/ac/N.

You tell me where the other 340 lb/ac of N ended up.

Not many farmers I know get away with waste, they usually get a lot of grief from other farmers in the area.

[Gil Dobie]

I haven't seen this much manure since I was standing in the barn, knee deep, shoveling it out the door. Interesting that conservation land is 2nd on your list I looked at, when no farming is done on that land for 99 years, which is good for the environment.

What are you talking about?

You'll have to give me a screen shot or something. I have no idea what "list" your talking about, or what you mean by "conservation land" and not being farmed for 99 years.

There are no subsidy payments for anything like that.

What county in ND are you from?

#2 for the entire state, I assume the Conservation Reserve Program is the land that is rented by the government for 99 years, 1 time payment, and not farmed until the lease is up. There is a lot of it around ND.

[OSBF]

Growing corn takes about .8 lbs of N to make 1bu. Lets say he grows 200 bu/ac corn, which uses 160 lb/ac/N.

You tell me where the other 340 lb/ac of N ended up.

Not many farmers I know get away with waste, they usually get a lot of grief from other farmers in the area.

where the rub comes in is the defination of excess.

in his mind, what the guy did made perfect sense. if a little is good, a little more is better.

they tend to ignore sound science.

we can write them up a nutrient plan that shows 130 lb/ac N is plenty

they put on 200+ and feel good about it, better not run out of N in the middle of the growing season

what they don't grasp is that the extra above the 130 lb the crop actually needs ends up in either groundwater or surface water as pollution, and eventually down the river and out into the gulf.

They don't see that as over application at all. That's the way it's just always done.

[OSBF]

What are you talking about?

You'll have to give me a screen shot or something. I have no idea what "list" your talking about, or what you mean by "conservation land" and not being farmed for 99 years.

There are no subsidy payments for anything like that.

What county in ND are you from?

#2 for the entire state, I assume the Conservation Reserve Program is the land that is rented by the government for 99 years, 1 time payment, and not farmed until the lease is up. There is a lot of it around ND.

There is no such thing as a 99 year govt lease on any private owned farmland. The govt does not lease land from private landowners.

What county do you live in/are you from? I'll tell you who got the most free govt cheese over the past 5 years. Or just name me a county your interested in.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Hey thanks for enlightening those of us that have family in it or are actually doing it numbnuts.

You think that's fucking news to us?

We're talking about farmers, your talking about corporate farming. There is a big fucking difference there Mr. Know It All.

the family farm of which you speak is all but dead, very soon will be dead

I work with 7 different producers in my county alone that are over 10,000 acres each, and a bucket full of others over 5000 acres. All are corporations. As grandpa dies off, the land just ends up in the control of one of these land corporations. The heirs want to cash out, and the small local family farm isn't a player as land prices approach 10K per acre.

I don't like it either, but it is the landscape we're in today.

Gil, Cluck, kalm, & I were talking about farmers. You said we were talking about the romantic notion of the farmer but since there are three of those in my family, and Gil & his brother have one of their own that is the base we were talking from.

We're in this landscape because people aren't concerned with buying their farm products from local producers. There seems to be a little bit of change going on where some people are starting to see the value of grown local and organic products. With any luck that type of thing will take hold and local farmers will increase their foothold in the market.

[OSBF]

With any luck that type of thing will take hold and local farmers will increase their foothold in the market.

That's going to require a complete and total fundamental shift on the part of both the consumer and the producer.

If you grow corn/soybeans/wheat you're done. The city folk are never going to drive out to the country and pull up in your driveway to buy your corn or soybeans. Your competing with the low margin/low leveraged big boys and it's only a matter of time till they crush you like a bug. This romantic notion of a family farm with a few hundred acres, a couple of cows, a few pigs, and a bunch of ducks and chickens running around in the front yard behind a white picket fence is gone forever. It's never coming back.

If you're talking about small scale truck crops/orchards/and direct to consumer livestock...............

well, you've got something there that has potential

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

With any luck that type of thing will take hold and local farmers will increase their foothold in the market.

That's going to require a complete and total fundamental shift on the part of both the consumer and the producer.

If you grow corn/soybeans/wheat you're done. The city folk are never going to drive out to the country and pull up in your driveway to buy your corn or soybeans. Your competing with the low margin big boys and it's only a matter of time till they crush you like a bug.

If you're talking about small scale truck crops/orchards/and direct to consumer livestock...............

well, you've got something there that has potential

It can happen, the shift I mean. Instead of letting the corporations tell us what we are gonna eat we can shun that and make the better choices by supporting those that are just farmers doing things the right way.

Hopefully we will also see a burgeoning in the farm to table type restaurants. You can't get food better than that and it costs more but so what?

Co-ops and so forth will continue to grow hopefully and become a place that city folk can get back to tasting what real food is supposed to taste like. The best thing about driving around in Eastern Montana is just stopping in some farmers driveway walking up to his little shop that looks like a fire works stand and buying some fresh produce that has been off the vine or out of the ground for only a few hours.

People on the E. Coast have tons of small farms that could drive up to and get all the fresh fucking fruit they wanted. It's one of those things that should be much bigger than it is.

Fuck, the reason Watermelon & Oranges tasted so good when you were a kid was because it wasn't gotten from a corporation that thought a fucking orange is better if it's the size of a god damn basketball and that seeds in a Watermelon were the work of the devil.

[OSBF]

That's going to require a complete and total fundamental shift on the part of both the consumer and the producer.

If you grow corn/soybeans/wheat you're done. The city folk are never going to drive out to the country and pull up in your driveway to buy your corn or soybeans. Your competing with the low margin big boys and it's only a matter of time till they crush you like a bug.

If you're talking about small scale truck crops/orchards/and direct to consumer livestock...............

well, you've got something there that has potential

It can happen, the shift I mean. Instead of letting the corporations tell us what we are gonna eat we can shun that and make the better choices by supporting those that are just farmers doing things the right way.

Hopefully we will also see a burgeoning in the farm to table type restaurants. You can't get food better than that and it costs more but so what?

Co-ops and so forth will continue to grow hopefully and become a place that city folk can get back to tasting what real food is supposed to taste like. The best thing about driving around in Eastern Montana is just stopping in some farmers driveway walking up to his little shop that looks like a fire works stand and buying some fresh produce that has been off the vine or out of the ground for only a few hours.

People on the E. Coast have tons of small farms that could drive up to and get all the fresh fucking fruit they wanted. It's one of those things that should be much bigger than it is.

Fuck, the reason Watermelon & Oranges tasted so good when you were a kid was because it wasn't gotten from a corporation that thought a fucking orange is better if it's the size of a god damn basketball and that seeds in a Watermelon were the work of the devil.

you're talking about a small scale/ direct to consumer marketing of an end product. fine and dandy if you have up to about 100 acres of mixed fruit/vegetables, have access to labor, and a market.

The people that I worry about, that are the endangered species of agriculture are the small/medium farms. Perhaps a father/son or a couple of brothers farming together, conventional agriculture on a couple thousand acres.

They're doomed. Only a matter of time for most of 'em, simple economics.

[HI54UNI]

Big corporations are not going to completely take over farming. Many farm states have laws preventing corporate ownership. Illinois isn't one of them. The DM Register had an article recently about land prices and it mentioned that the corporations are buying in Illinois because they can't in Iowa and other states.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

It can happen, the shift I mean. Instead of letting the corporations tell us what we are gonna eat we can shun that and make the better choices by supporting those that are just farmers doing things the right way.

Hopefully we will also see a burgeoning in the farm to table type restaurants. You can't get food better than that and it costs more but so what?

Co-ops and so forth will continue to grow hopefully and become a place that city folk can get back to tasting what real food is supposed to taste like. The best thing about driving around in Eastern Montana is just stopping in some farmers driveway walking up to his little shop that looks like a fire works stand and buying some fresh produce that has been off the vine or out of the ground for only a few hours.

People on the E. Coast have tons of small farms that could drive up to and get all the fresh fucking fruit they wanted. It's one of those things that should be much bigger than it is.

Fuck, the reason Watermelon & Oranges tasted so good when you were a kid was because it wasn't gotten from a corporation that thought a fucking orange is better if it's the size of a god damn basketball and that seeds in a Watermelon were the work of the devil.

you're talking about a small scale/ direct to consumer marketing of an end product. fine and dandy if you have up to about 100 acres of mixed fruit/vegetables, have access to labor, and a market.

The people that I worry about, that are the endangered species of agriculture are the small/medium farms. Perhaps a father/son or a couple of brothers farming together, conventional agriculture on a couple thousand acres.

They're doomed. Only a matter of time for most of 'em, simple economics.

Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong or maybe as HI5 pointed out your perspective may be skewed with what is going on in Illinois.

In MT there are small farmers finding ways to remain a going concern. My Uncle took over a small farm of 800 acres a couple years back when my grandparents died and as far as I know he will be working it as he has always done. He'll be working on the Massey Ferguson, welding on the Minneapolis Moline, Cooking a meal, and playing crib while having a beer and telling stories. He'll bitch about the bushel price, hope for a bumper crop, fill the water tank to take down to the cows, pull out his .22 and shoot a rattler in the area that's fucking with him and then at night he'll watch the sun set on the horizon covering hundreds of acres of wheat.

So I hope the real farmers are still out there and find a way to do it in the face of simple economics as they have done since the beginning.

[JohnStOnge]

Being down here in Southeast Louisiana I read about this thing every year. I know you'll be shocked to read that I think the effects are exaggerated. That's not to say it's not there; that it's not happening. But just living down here and being aware of Gulf productivity in general and productivity in the vicinity of the mouth of the Mississippi River in particular along with havnig become very cynical about what I view as a "Chicken Little" tendency in the community of environmental science impacts my attitude. Nothing I have had direct experience with during the past 27 years of working in the area of estuarine/coastal environmental study has ever been as bad as the impression created by the media and by the environmentalist crusaders who dominate the field. That's my outlook anyway.

I also think that, like anything else, there is a trade off. I don't think there's any question that United States Agriculture has been a tremendous benefit. Maybe if we'd known what we know now we'd have managed things differently but we didn't. And the Gulf of Mexico isn't anywhere close to being destroyed as an ecosystem. Also, it isn't just the farmers who are to "blame." At least I don't think so. I think that channelizing and containing the Mississippi within levees is also a factor. 500 years ago Mississippi River waters flooded out into overflow swamps and oozed around distributing sediment in farious places including the delta. Not nearly as much material was injected directly into the Gulf of Mexico. That kind of thing.

Anyway, if you go to Venice, Louisiana, near the mouth of the Mississippi River during the height of the summer when this hypoxic area is prevalent you will see some of the beat estuarrine and offshore fishing in the world. In the meantime Gulf commercial fisheries landings will be at their seasonal height. So on and so forth.

[OSBF]

Big corporations are not going to completely take over farming. Many farm states have laws preventing corporate ownership. Illinois isn't one of them. The DM Register had an article recently about land prices and it mentioned that the corporations are buying in Illinois because they can't in Iowa and other states.

What say ye conks on this one?

Big bad gubment deciding who can or can't own private property?

Talk about government overstepping its bounds. Holy Cow.

[OSBF]

So...............

The conks got nothing.............

I guess gubment involvement is OK when it helps god fearing whitey

It only becomes a real problem when the gubment tries to help out the poor or brown folks

Then that becomes socialism.............

[89Hen]

So...............

The conks got nothing.............

I guess gubment involvement is OK when it helps god fearing whitey

It only becomes a real problem when the gubment tries to help out the poor or brown folks

Then that becomes socialism.............

OR, your posts became so fucking boring, you drove everyone away.