Blyleven, Alomar Make HOF

[Ivytalk]

Unfortunately, that's true.

No way is that true. Take a Twin (Kirby Puckett) and a Yankee (Don Mattingly) with nearly identical career stats. Puckett goes in first ballot; Mattingly can't get more than 20% of the vote -- and this is true, even though Mattingly was the undisputed best player in baseball for nearly five years.

But then again, the Hall of Fame is only the second best individual honor in baseball. The greatest honor is having your number retired by the New York Yankees.

Dayum, Joe, do you have the word "Yankees" on your alert settings? Every time it pops up, you're here to defend the virginity of George Steinbrenner and correct every slight of a Blue pinstriper, real or imagined.

Stupid Bronx putzes.

[UNHWildCats]

Alomar made it?? I thought the whole spitting incident would have silenced quite a few voters. I guess there are more voters from New York than I thought.

they made their protest last year by not making him a 1st ballot HOF... but as much of a jerk he was for that incident, its no reason to keep him out, just like the time Clemens told an umpire he knew where he lived after he was tossed from a game wouldnt keep him out... steroids is another matter though lol

[UNHWildCats]

the guy was a first-ballot hall guy... the best second baseman of the 90's, and it's not even close...
.

I'd put Barry Larkin close

Really??? That would be impressive if Larkin were close to Alomar for best second baseman of the 90s considering Larkin played SS.

[Gil Dobie]

I'd put Barry Larkin close

Really??? That would be impressive if Larkin were close to Alomar for best second baseman of the 90s considering Larkin played SS.

Somebody is paying attention

[JoltinJoe]

Gil, your memory betrays you. Before Mattingly's back surgery, he was a .335, 35 HR, 120 RBI guy every season (remarkable numbers in the pre-steroid era). Not one of the guys you mentioned ever achieved that sublime combination of power and average. Brett, Boggs could hit for that type of average, but not that type of power. Murphy and Schmidt could hit for that power, but not for that average. Henderson was a selfish player who was only ocassionally as good as his stats would indicate, and Ripken wouldn't even be in this discussion but for his "streak." (PS -- When Henderson played in New York, his nickname among fans was "Mr. Me").

If Mattingly had stayed healthy, he would have been a first-ballot lock. I still wonder how Puckett got a first-ballot pass and a guy who was a far better player in his prime, and a far better person too, can be left out with the almost identical career stats.

PS -- Your reference to Murphy has a two-time MVP reminds me that Mattingly was jobbed in the 1986 MVP voting, and should have won back-to-back MVP awards. Another instance of a Yankee being passed over simply because he was a Yankee.

Mattingly had 35 HR once, over 120 RBI once and batted over .335 twice

Take a look at his numbers from 1984 through 1989, and tell me that they don't back up my point (except for '88, when he had his first back flare-up). Averages: .343, .324, .352, .327, .311, .303; 23 HR; 35, 31, 30, 18, 23; 110RBI, 145, 113, 115, 88, 113.

Who among the group of Boggs, Henderson, Gwynn, Schmidt, Ripken, Brett, etc. was hitting anywhere near that kind of average with that kind of power?

[JoltinJoe]

No way is that true. Take a Twin (Kirby Puckett) and a Yankee (Don Mattingly) with nearly identical career stats. Puckett goes in first ballot; Mattingly can't get more than 20% of the vote -- and this is true, even though Mattingly was the undisputed best player in baseball for nearly five years.

But then again, the Hall of Fame is only the second best individual honor in baseball. The greatest honor is having your number retired by the New York Yankees.

Dayum, Joe, do you have the word "Yankees" on your alert settings? Every time it pops up, you're here to defend the virginity of George Steinbrenner and correct every slight of a Blue pinstriper, real or imagined.

Stupid Bronx putzes.

27 titles. Suck it, Philly Phanatic.

[Gil Dobie]

Mattingly had 35 HR once, over 120 RBI once and batted over .335 twice

Take a look at his numbers from 1984 through 1989, and tell me that they don't back up my point (except for '88, when he had his first back flare-up). Averages: .343, .324, .352, .327, .311, .303; 23 HR; 35, 31, 30, 18, 23; 110RBI, 145, 113, 115, 88, 113.

Who among the group of Boggs, Henderson, Gwynn, Schmidt, Ripken, Brett, etc. was hitting anywhere near that kind of average with that kind of power?

So now it's best average/power hitter and not best player.

Boggs had let the league in hitting 4 of those seasons, and offensive WAR in 3, Mattingly lead in WAR zero times, Henderson once, Ripken once, Yount once. Mattingly was one of the best players during that period, but he wasn't far and above everyone.

[Gil Dobie]

I'd put Barry Larkin close

Really??? That would be impressive if Larkin were close to Alomar for best second baseman of the 90s considering Larkin played SS.

Let me change that to Craig Biggio

[JoltinJoe]

Take a look at his numbers from 1984 through 1989, and tell me that they don't back up my point (except for '88, when he had his first back flare-up). Averages: .343, .324, .352, .327, .311, .303; 23 HR; 35, 31, 30, 18, 23; 110RBI, 145, 113, 115, 88, 113.

Who among the group of Boggs, Henderson, Gwynn, Schmidt, Ripken, Brett, etc. was hitting anywhere near that kind of average with that kind of power?

So now it's best average/power hitter and not best player.

Boggs had let the league in hitting 4 of those seasons, and offensive WAR in 3, Mattingly lead in WAR zero times, Henderson once, Ripken once, Yount once. Mattingly was one of the best players during that period, but he wasn't far and above everyone.

WAR? Really?

Boggs was a dinky singles hitter. Mattingly was being compared to Lou Gehrig. Come on, Gil, you remember. When Mattingly was at his best, he had no equal in baseball.

Mattingly's reputation for an extended period of the '80s as baseball's best player was well deserved; and he has nearly identical career numbers to a first-ballot Hall of Famer who was a contemporary and never considered Mattingly's equal during Mattingly's prime. That Mattingly has been excluded from the Hall of Fame is the result of an anti-Yankee bias among sports writers -- the same bias that finds a way to justify giving the Cy Young award to a 13-win pitcher when the Yankee ace has 21 wins, or the same bias that screwed Mattingly out of the 1986 MP. This guy should have been one of the rare players in baseball history to win back-to-back MVPs.

If Mattingly had played for any other team, he would been admitted long ago. But there is NO justification for voting Puckett in ON THE FIRST BALLOT and leaving Mattingly out.

You know, I lot of what I say here is just intended to have fun and bust balls, but I am very serious about this point.

[andy7171]

Three years of hitting 35, 31, 30 HRs doesn't get you into the HOF. Mattingly is nothing more than an injury riddled Raffy Palmeiro.

Paul O'neil has a better chance at getting into the HOF than Mattingly.

Suck it Yankee fan!

[JoltinJoe]

Three years of hitting 35, 31, 30 HRs doesn't get you into the HOF. Mattingly is nothing more than an injury riddled Raffy Palmeiro.

Paul O'neil has a better chance at getting into the HOF than Mattingly.

Suck it Yankee fan!

There are plenty of players already in the Hall with lesser numbers than Mattingly.

And if Mattingly was an "injury plagued" Raffy Palmiero, then so was Kirby Puckett, because Mattingly and Puckett's numbers are interchangeable.

I'd say suck it, Orioles fan, but that's too mean. Like saying, "Suck it, retard."

[SuperHornet]

What the cr@p is wrong with being a singles hitter? Singles hitters play into the most exciting baseball there is: an offense predicated on running the basepaths. BillyBall is where it's at; BochyBall is the most boring baseball ever known.

Besides, the best hitter in the history of the game was a singles hitter....

[JoltinJoe]

What the cr@p is wrong with being a singles hitter? Singles hitters play into the most exciting baseball there is: an offense predicated on running the basepaths. BillyBall is where it's at; BochyBall is the most boring baseball ever known.

Besides, the best hitter in the history of the game was a singles hitter....

Singles hitters are pansies and, like Mickey Mantle said about Pete Rose, should wear dresses.

[JMU DJ]

What the cr@p is wrong with being a singles hitter? Singles hitters play into the most exciting baseball there is: an offense predicated on running the basepaths. BillyBall is where it's at; BochyBall is the most boring baseball ever known.

Besides, the best hitter in the history of the game was a singles hitter....

Singles hitters are pansies and, like Mickey Mantle said about Pete Rose, should wear dresses.

Yup, and Ty Cobb was a pussy too

[bandl]

Singles hitters are pansies and, like Mickey Mantle said about Pete Rose, should wear dresses.

Yup, and Ty Cobb was a pussy too

And so is Jeter.

[JoltinJoe]

Yup, and Ty Cobb was a pussy too

And so is Jeter.

Kind of walked into that one, didn't I?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Joe - Kent Hrbek was an identical player to Mattingly.

both had power bats, both careers were shortened by injuries, both had gold glove caliber defense (though Mattingly, thanks to playing in NY won them all and Hrbek came in second)

Hrbek OPS (career): .848
OPS+ (career): 128
HR: 293
RBI 1086

Mattingly OPS (career): .830
OPS+ (career): 127
HR 222
RBI 1099

I love Hrbek, he was my favorite player as a kid - but he's no HOFer. He got 1% of the vote in 2000 and was gone from the ballot. If anything - Mattingly lingering on the ballot is a testament to the Yankee love he's getting - given how similar he and Hrbek were...

[JoltinJoe]

Joe - Kent Hrbek was an identical player to Mattingly.

both had power bats, both careers were shortened by injuries, both had gold glove caliber defense (though Mattingly, thanks to playing in NY won them all and Hrbek came in second)

Hrbek OPS (career): .848
OPS+ (career): 128

Mattingly OPS (career): .830
OPS+ (career): 127

I love Hrbek, he was my favorite player as a kid - but he's no HOFer.

Mattingly had 9 Gold Gloves and was also one of the best defensive first basemen ever.

Plus, in his prime, Mattingly put OPS+ of 161, 156, 156 and 146. Hrbek never had consecutive seasons like that.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Joe - Kent Hrbek was an identical player to Mattingly.

both had power bats, both careers were shortened by injuries, both had gold glove caliber defense (though Mattingly, thanks to playing in NY won them all and Hrbek came in second)

Hrbek OPS (career): .848
OPS+ (career): 128

Mattingly OPS (career): .830
OPS+ (career): 127

I love Hrbek, he was my favorite player as a kid - but he's no HOFer.

Mattingly had 9 Gold Gloves and was also one of the best defensive first basemen ever.

Plus, in his prime, Mattingly put OPS+ of 161, 156, 156 and 146. Hrbek never had consecutive seasons like that.

no - he was consistent over his career. putting up similar numbers over similar years - mattingly was more streaky

and again - Hrbek was just as good defensively, but overlooked in favor the Yankee player.

[JoltinJoe]

Mattingly had 9 Gold Gloves and was also one of the best defensive first basemen ever.

Plus, in his prime, Mattingly put OPS+ of 161, 156, 156 and 146. Hrbek never had consecutive seasons like that.

no - he was consistent over his career. putting up similar numbers over similar years - mattingly was more streaky

and again - Hrbek was just as good defensively, but overlooked in favor the Yankee player.

Mattingly was not streaky. His performance was consistently off the chart from his rookie season through 1989. His ability to produce numbers like he did in his prime ended only because of a chronic back problem. Even without the bat speed of his prime, he was still able to put up some very good numbers ... just not comparable to what he had done when he was the best player in baseball.

Mattingly should be a Hall of Famer because he was baseball's best player for an extended period of time, much the way Sandy Koufax put up great numbers for a solid run of years -- although neither was blessed with longevity.

Today, the Hall of Fame has become a haven for very good players who are blessed with longevity -- Carlton Fisk, Eddie Murray, for example -- even though contemporaries like Munson and Mattingly were better players.

I have no problem with putting in the good players blessed with longevity, but there should also be room for the great players who had shorter careers.

[GannonFan]

Mattingly? Seriously? And "baseball's best player for an extended period of time"? Come on Joe, there's no excuse for drinking in the middle of the day. Donnie was a very good player, but let's not get crazy. He was basically Cecil Cooper with a little better glove, and no one is banging down the door of the HOF to get Cooper in. Mattingly was noteworthy because he was the best guy on the Yankees for an extended period of time when the Yankees were just average at best. Good player, not a HOF'er.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Mattingly? Seriously? And "baseball's best player for an extended period of time"? Come on Joe, there's no excuse for drinking in the middle of the day. Donnie was a very good player, but let's not get crazy. He was basically Cecil Cooper with a little better glove, and no one is banging down the door of the HOF to get Cooper in. Mattingly was noteworthy because he was the best guy on the Yankees for an extended period of time when the Yankees were just average at best. Good player, not a HOF'er.

[JoltinJoe]

Mattingly? Seriously? And "baseball's best player for an extended period of time"? Come on Joe, there's no excuse for drinking in the middle of the day. Donnie was a very good player, but let's not get crazy. He was basically Cecil Cooper with a little better glove, and no one is banging down the door of the HOF to get Cooper in. Mattingly was noteworthy because he was the best guy on the Yankees for an extended period of time when the Yankees were just average at best. Good player, not a HOF'er.

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If you go by Hall of Fame monitor standards, Mattingly rates as the #100 hitter in history ... with many Hall of Famers surrounding him, including many that finish behind him. Mattingly's Hall of Fame Monitor score is 134, with 130 or more considered to be undeniable Hall of Famer, and 100 or more considered a likely Hall of Famer.

Cooper rates as #164. He scores a 96 for his Hall of Fame Monitor score.

That being said, I have always said I think Cecil Cooper has become historically underrated. I remember him when he played and he had some monstrous years. Cooper is, in my opinion, a borderline Hall candidate whose credentials, in hindsight, became unfairly compared to the crazy numbers that starting showing up in the 1990s.

I think for years Jim Rice got screwed by being compared to the players who followed him, but he eventually got over the hump. Mattingly seems likely to stall over these questionable comparisons. Cooper, in my opinion, deserved a closer look than he got. I think he didn't even get enough votes to show up on the ballot a second time. That was absurd.

[JoltinJoe]

You know, looking at the Hall of Fame Monitor more closely, I just noticed something for the first time.

I've been aware for a while that Mattingly's overall score of 134 is deemed to be a "cinch" Hall of Famer, but I looked at the 99 players ahead of him for the first time, and noticed that every single one of them is either: (i) already in the HOF; (ii) still active; (iii) suffers from steroid taint (Palmiero, Belle); (iv) retired but not yet eligible for the Hall; or (v) banned for life (Pete Rose). Some are still active with steroid taint; some are not yet eligible but are tainted by steroids.

So, according to the Hall of Fame Monitor, Don Mattingly is the highest ranked non-pitcher who is currently eligible for election to the Hall, not tainted by steroids, and who has been excluded from Cooperstown.

[BlueHen86]

Mattingly wasn't the undisputed best player during that period, 1 MVP, Dale Murphy, 2 time MVP, played Centerfield, Mike Schmidt was still knocking the ball out of the park, Rickey Henderson was tearing up the basepaths, Not to mention a young Cal Ripken Jr, George Brett. Wade Boggs was a far better player during those years, that's why he's in the Hall, same with Tony Gwynn.

Gil, your memory betrays you. Before Mattingly's back surgery, he was a .335, 35 HR, 120 RBI guy every season (remarkable numbers in the pre-steroid era). Not one of the guys you mentioned ever achieved that sublime combination of power and average. Brett, Boggs could hit for that type of average, but not that type of power. Murphy and Schmidt could hit for that power, but not for that average. Henderson was a selfish player who was only ocassionally as good as his stats would indicate, and Ripken wouldn't even be in this discussion but for his "streak." (PS -- When Henderson played in New York, his nickname among fans was "Mr. Me").

If Mattingly had stayed healthy, he would have been a first-ballot lock. I still wonder how Puckett got a first-ballot pass and a guy who was a far better player in his prime, and a far better person too, can be left out with the almost identical career stats.

PS -- Your reference to Murphy has a two-time MVP reminds me that Mattingly was jobbed in the 1986 MVP voting, and should have won back-to-back MVP awards. Another instance of a Yankee being passed over simply because he was a Yankee.

@ Joe for getting into an argument on something that is supposedly undisputed. The fact that you are in a dispute means you lose the argument just by having it.