Buchanan nails it- why should China do anything we ask?

[houndawg]

Tell that to the Chinese who don't really need anything from us other than raw materials and our markets. Free trade benefits multinational corporations and immerging industrialized countries with populations as yet unaware enough to rise up and say "hey, why can't we have a bigger piece of the pie?"

"Free trade" is like "free" market capitalism. Nice in theory. Why do you hate Adam Smith?

wow. there is so much failure in that post I don't know which concept to address first. As long as we have people who rise up with their entitlement complexes and ask "hey, why can't we have a bigger piece of the pie?" we will not have manufacturing jobs in America. Minimum wage will continue to increase and corporations will continue to send jobs overseas because it is cheaper. Free Trade benefits us all, we pay cheaper prices for products that are most of the time of the same quality of American made products. We save money and are therefore able to use that money to invest in other things, leading to us all benefiting. Why do I have to give you a basic economics lesson?

Yeah quality is the same most of the time, except for certain regrettable short comings in things like critical aircraft hardware......and there is that Chinese drywall gassing people in their homes......and the poisonous toys for kids......


What you don't seem to get is that jobs are leaving regardless and unions are just a straw man. Break every union tomorrow and those jobs are still leaving.

Hell, why should cops and firemen and airline pilots earn more than minimum wage? We could find people to do soft gigs like those for the minimum. There's some fckrs that need to back off the entitlement complex a little.

[kalm]

Yes, it is apparent that it seems basic to you.

Cheaper goods come with a price. Stagnant wages, greater personal debt, greater international debt so that we have cheap things we can't afford? These things make the entitlement programs you're against even more neccessary. Please tell me how free trade has helped America.

if we didn't have rampant inflation caused by the fed and entitlement programs that cripple the job-makers with taxes, as well as minimum wage laws we wouldn't have as much poverty and finding jobs wouldn't be as hard either. Not to mention it would be easier to make a living for one's self if he is paid in currency that is of greater value (blame the fed for inflation). Stagnant wages and international debt are to be blamed on the government. With our current monetary policy we are stuck on a boom-bust cycle, if we ended the fed, we would be forced to cut down on debt and wages would be more consistent and robust. You pulled the personal debt idea being because of low prices right out of your ass. Free trade has helped America through cheaper goods, if there was less government involvement in the marketplace it would be even better for the economy

I didnt say personal debt was caused by low prices. But I'm glad you're now admitting that lower priced crap is the only benefit of free trade. So where are the jobs, increased wages, and resulting demand going to come from?

[youngterrier]

wow. there is so much failure in that post I don't know which concept to address first. As long as we have people who rise up with their entitlement complexes and ask "hey, why can't we have a bigger piece of the pie?" we will not have manufacturing jobs in America. Minimum wage will continue to increase and corporations will continue to send jobs overseas because it is cheaper. Free Trade benefits us all, we pay cheaper prices for products that are most of the time of the same quality of American made products. We save money and are therefore able to use that money to invest in other things, leading to us all benefiting. Why do I have to give you a basic economics lesson?

Yeah quality is the same most of the time, except for certain regrettable short comings in things like critical aircraft hardware......and there is that Chinese drywall gassing people in their homes......and the poisonous toys for kids......


What you don't seem to get is that jobs are leaving regardless and unions are just a straw man. Break every union tomorrow and those jobs are still leaving.

Hell, why should cops and firemen and airline pilots earn more than minimum wage? We could find people to do soft gigs like those for the minimum. There's some fckrs that need to back off the entitlement complex a little.

yeah, hence why I said most of the time that is a pretty epic shortcoming, but it isn't common. I have never had a bad run-in with foreign made products. We hear about it all the time but a lot of times said defective products are recalled before they can be sold. I never mentioned Unions by the way . As for the cops and firemen and airline pilots, they earn more because we offer to pay more. If we chose to pay less, there would be some that would take the job. Piloting an airplane is perceived harder than a manufacturing job, that's why pilots are compensated more for their work

[youngterrier]

if we didn't have rampant inflation caused by the fed and entitlement programs that cripple the job-makers with taxes, as well as minimum wage laws we wouldn't have as much poverty and finding jobs wouldn't be as hard either. Not to mention it would be easier to make a living for one's self if he is paid in currency that is of greater value (blame the fed for inflation). Stagnant wages and international debt are to be blamed on the government. With our current monetary policy we are stuck on a boom-bust cycle, if we ended the fed, we would be forced to cut down on debt and wages would be more consistent and robust. You pulled the personal debt idea being because of low prices right out of your ass. Free trade has helped America through cheaper goods, if there was less government involvement in the marketplace it would be even better for the economy

I didnt say personal debt was caused by low prices. But I'm glad you're now admitting that lower priced crap is the only benefit of free trade. So where are the jobs, increased wages, and resulting demand going to come from?

lower prices--->more money in peoples' pocket --->investment--->new products, goods, services, etc---> more jobs--> more money in people's pocket---> repeat. it's that simple

[youngterrier]

It seems pretty basic to me, the effects of it at least. You trying to dismiss the positive effects of having cheaper goods on the market shows your ignorance a lot.

Yes, it is apparent that it seems basic to you.

Cheaper goods come with a price. Stagnant wages, greater personal debt, greater international debt so that we have cheap things we can't afford? These things make the entitlement programs you're against even more neccessary. Please tell me how free trade has helped America.

it seems that greater personal debt is blamed on cheaper goods here.....

[kalm]

I didnt say personal debt was caused by low prices. But I'm glad you're now admitting that lower priced crap is the only benefit of free trade. So where are the jobs, increased wages, and resulting demand going to come from?

lower prices--->more money in peoples' pocket --->investment--->new products, goods, services, etc---> more jobs--> more money in people's pocket---> repeat. it's that simple

Manufacturing creates value which creates wealth. More and more we are simply exchanging services. Good prices don't matter in that scenario.

[Baldy]

Yeah, all American business should put "America first".

When was the last time YOU put America first in any of your business or personal dealings?

Sounds like you find Buchanan as funny as I do.

Buchanan isn't nearly as funny as you.

[youngterrier]

lower prices--->more money in peoples' pocket --->investment--->new products, goods, services, etc---> more jobs--> more money in people's pocket---> repeat. it's that simple

Manufacturing creates value which creates wealth. More and more we are simply exchanging services. Good prices don't matter in that scenario.

so? nothing wrong with that. Nowadays wealth is created through wall street. Funding the manufacturing industries in China and other places abroad by American businessmen to be sold in America brings back profit and money to American businessmen. They then spend the money they earned on service industries in America provided by the American people. The American people then spend the money they earned on the products that are made foreignly and bankrolled locally. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The mutual partnerships in our global economy is what has kept us out of another world war in the last 60 years (and Nukes). China and other places abroad need our private businesses to bankroll their operations, American business needs foreign trade as much as foreign business needs American trade. Because Free Trade has made the world more interdependent and thus more hesitant when it comes to waging wars I would have to say that it's worth not having a manufacturing industry, especially since we are as wealthy as ever and there is no way the manufacturing industry is ever going to be revived in America

[kalm]

Manufacturing creates value which creates wealth. More and more we are simply exchanging services. Good prices don't matter in that scenario.

so? nothing wrong with that. Nowadays wealth is created through wall street. Funding the manufacturing industries in China and other places abroad by American businessmen to be sold in America brings back profit and money to American businessmen. They then spend the money they earned on service industries in America provided by the American people. The American people then spend the money they earned on the products that are made foreignly and bankrolled locally. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The mutual partnerships in our global economy is what has kept us out of another world war in the last 60 years (and Nukes). China and other places abroad need our private businesses to bankroll their operations, American business needs foreign trade as much as foreign business needs American trade. Because Free Trade has made the world more interdependent and thus more hesitant when it comes to waging wars I would have to say that it's worth not having a manufacturing industry, especially since we are as wealthy as ever and there is no way the manufacturing industry is ever going to be revived in America

There are not enough things the rich folks need and there are not enough of them to come close to touching the economic power of a vibrant middle class or support our current standard of living.

So when should we expect the benefits of free trade to start kicking in? How did we ever survive those wretched years when we used to protect domestic manufacturing like the Chinese are still doing?

[youngterrier]

so? nothing wrong with that. Nowadays wealth is created through wall street. Funding the manufacturing industries in China and other places abroad by American businessmen to be sold in America brings back profit and money to American businessmen. They then spend the money they earned on service industries in America provided by the American people. The American people then spend the money they earned on the products that are made foreignly and bankrolled locally. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The mutual partnerships in our global economy is what has kept us out of another world war in the last 60 years (and Nukes). China and other places abroad need our private businesses to bankroll their operations, American business needs foreign trade as much as foreign business needs American trade. Because Free Trade has made the world more interdependent and thus more hesitant when it comes to waging wars I would have to say that it's worth not having a manufacturing industry, especially since we are as wealthy as ever and there is no way the manufacturing industry is ever going to be revived in America

There are not enough things the rich folks need and there are not enough of them to come close to touching the economic power of a vibrant middle class or support our current standard of living.

So when should we expect the benefits of free trade to start kicking in? How did we ever survive those wretched years when we used to protect domestic manufacturing like the Chinese are still doing?

I'm not proposing that we suck off the teet of the wealthy like some sort of private socialism (though you would love it). The middle class isn't screwed because of the lack of manufacturing jobs it's screwed because of the inflationary policies of the Fed and the taxing of actual job creators. We are the world's consumers. We make our money to consume through investment. manufacturing isn't necessary. The service industry and non-manufacturing job market is stronger and more stable than you give it credit for. Heck with free trade, agriculture has strengthened. The economy goes the way it wants to go, it's a free market. The jobs are out there and just because the manufacturing jobs phase out does not mean that the economy will not survive through other means. The money doesn't just go to the wealthy and disappear.

And the days of protectionism weren't always sunshine and rainbows. Tarriffs started talks about nullification and secession for goodness sake.

[kalm]

There are not enough things the rich folks need and there are not enough of them to come close to touching the economic power of a vibrant middle class or support our current standard of living.

So when should we expect the benefits of free trade to start kicking in? How did we ever survive those wretched years when we used to protect domestic manufacturing like the Chinese are still doing?

I'm not proposing that we suck off the teet of the wealthy like some sort of private socialism (though you would love it). The middle class isn't screwed because of the lack of manufacturing jobs it's screwed because of the inflationary policies of the Fed and the taxing of actual job creators. We are the world's consumers. We make our money to consume through investment. manufacturing isn't necessary. The service industry and non-manufacturing job market is stronger and more stable than you give it credit for. Heck with free trade, agriculture has strengthened. The economy goes the way it wants to go, it's a free market. The jobs are out there and just because the manufacturing jobs phase out does not mean that the economy will not survive through other means. The money doesn't just go to the wealthy and disappear.

And the days of protectionism weren't always sunshine and rainbows. Tarriffs started talks about nullification and secession for goodness sake.

But I thought the rich were the job creators? And they've never had it so good, and they have rarely had lower taxes. The wealth gap hasn't been this wide since the depression. Free trade has been ruled for over a decade now. And according to you a couple of posts ago we've never been so wealthy? So which one is it? Where are the jobs?

I've had it with Democrats, but you're doing a great job of convincing me how bat shit crazy and economically illogical the likes of Tom Friedman, Ron Paul, and the libertarians are.

But I do agree the fed needs to be looked at. Thank goodness Democratic Socialist Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul got it through.

[kalm]

Oh, btw YT, I'm a job creator and I will employ more people when the demand from my middle class customers goes up.

[youngterrier]

I'm not proposing that we suck off the teet of the wealthy like some sort of private socialism (though you would love it). The middle class isn't screwed because of the lack of manufacturing jobs it's screwed because of the inflationary policies of the Fed and the taxing of actual job creators. We are the world's consumers. We make our money to consume through investment. manufacturing isn't necessary. The service industry and non-manufacturing job market is stronger and more stable than you give it credit for. Heck with free trade, agriculture has strengthened. The economy goes the way it wants to go, it's a free market. The jobs are out there and just because the manufacturing jobs phase out does not mean that the economy will not survive through other means. The money doesn't just go to the wealthy and disappear.

And the days of protectionism weren't always sunshine and rainbows. Tarriffs started talks about nullification and secession for goodness sake.

But I thought the rich were the job creators? And they've never had it so good, and they have rarely had lower taxes. The wealth gap hasn't been this wide since the depression. Free trade has been ruled for over a decade now. And according to you a couple of posts ago we've never been so wealthy? So which one is it? Where are the jobs?

I've had it with Democrats, but you're doing a great job of convincing me how bat shit crazy and economically illogical the likes of Tom Friedman, Ron Paul, and the libertarians are.

But I do agree the fed needs to be looked at. Thank goodness Democratic Socialist Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul got it through.

I never said that the rich weren't the job creators. the government wants to tax anything they consider "rich," and those "rich" are the real job creators whether it is the wealthy or the small businesses. I never said that we've never been so wealthy, rather we are as wealthy as ever, not to say that we can't be wealthier but rather we aren't as poor as we think we are. Our definition of poor people in this country can be someone with a car and a mortgage for goodness sake and the chinese can't say that now can they? so yeah we're wealthy. I concede that tax rates are rarely lower for the wealthy, but in a recession you don't spend and tax, tax and spend. You cut taxes and spending. You don't bail out corporations that fail. The jobs aren't here because of governments intervention with the economy, not because of the lack of intervention by the government in the economy. If we could just be patient and not expect things to fall in our lap waiting for government to do something the economy would fix itself, just look at the depression of the early 1920s

[youngterrier]

Oh, btw YT, I'm a job creator and I will employ more people when the demand from my middle class customers goes up.

yes you will, but government intervention won't help your product be more attractive and more in demand, not permanently at least you'll be able to employ more people when they have more money, that doesn't necessarily come from the middle class out of nowhere. The wealthy pay the middle class and the middle class pays you. So why not let the wealthy keep some more of their money so they can pay more middle class workers you'd be helping yourself

[Ivytalk]

Why anyone cares what Buchanan thinks is a mystery to me.

[CID1990]

wow. there is so much failure in that post I don't know which concept to address first. As long as we have people who rise up with their entitlement complexes and ask "hey, why can't we have a bigger piece of the pie?" we will not have manufacturing jobs in America. Minimum wage will continue to increase and corporations will continue to send jobs overseas because it is cheaper. Free Trade benefits us all, we pay cheaper prices for products that are most of the time of the same quality of American made products. We save money and are therefore able to use that money to invest in other things, leading to us all benefiting. Why do I have to give you a basic economics lesson?

Yeah quality is the same most of the time, except for certain regrettable short comings in things like critical aircraft hardware......and there is that Chinese drywall gassing people in their homes......and the poisonous toys for kids......


What you don't seem to get is that jobs are leaving regardless and unions are just a straw man. Break every union tomorrow and those jobs are still leaving.

Hell, why should cops and firemen and airline pilots earn more than minimum wage? We could find people to do soft gigs like those for the minimum. There's some fckrs that need to back off the entitlement complex a little.

I just figured it out. Houndawg lives in a box at the bottom of the ocean. That's the only explanation.

Airline pilots: work in the private sector. (I prefer to be flown by pilots with something other than a certificate from Houndawg Community College, thanks.

Firemen and cops: I'll start a thread about improving professionalism and getting quality recruits in emergency services and then I'll watch you come out in favor of college degrees for cops, you dupe.

[houndawg]

But I thought the rich were the job creators? And they've never had it so good, and they have rarely had lower taxes. The wealth gap hasn't been this wide since the depression. Free trade has been ruled for over a decade now. And according to you a couple of posts ago we've never been so wealthy? So which one is it? Where are the jobs?

I've had it with Democrats, but you're doing a great job of convincing me how bat **** crazy and economically illogical the likes of Tom Friedman, Ron Paul, and the libertarians are.

But I do agree the fed needs to be looked at. Thank goodness Democratic Socialist Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul got it through.

I never said that the rich weren't the job creators. the government wants to tax anything they consider "rich," and those "rich" are the real job creators whether it is the wealthy or the small businesses. I never said that we've never been so wealthy, rather we are as wealthy as ever, not to say that we can't be wealthier but rather we aren't as poor as we think we are. Our definition of poor people in this country can be someone with a car and a mortgage for goodness sake and the chinese can't say that now can they? so yeah we're wealthy. I concede that tax rates are rarely lower for the wealthy, but in a recession you don't spend and tax, tax and spend. You cut taxes and spending. You don't bail out corporations that fail. The jobs aren't here because of governments intervention with the economy, not because of the lack of intervention by the government in the economy. If we could just be patient and not expect things to fall in our lap waiting for government to do something the economy would fix itself, just look at the depression of the early 1920s

Wow. You might have a future in politics with jive like that.

Nice spin, 30 years of stagnant wages = as wealthy as ever.

[grizzaholic]

So the US should ignore the environment, human rights etc?


Buchanan is screwed in the head.


What we need is to stop importing goods from them, and bring manufacturing back to the US. Yeah, the robber barons of Wall Street may make a few less bucks, but everyone else wins.

How is your IKEA furnished house and weekly shopping spree at Wal-Mart?

[houndawg]

There are not enough things the rich folks need and there are not enough of them to come close to touching the economic power of a vibrant middle class or support our current standard of living.

So when should we expect the benefits of free trade to start kicking in? How did we ever survive those wretched years when we used to protect domestic manufacturing like the Chinese are still doing?

I'm not proposing that we suck off the teet of the wealthy like some sort of private socialism (though you would love it). The middle class isn't screwed because of the lack of manufacturing jobs it's screwed because of the inflationary policies of the Fed and the taxing of actual job creators. We are the world's consumers. We make our money to consume through investment. manufacturing isn't necessary. The service industry and non-manufacturing job market is stronger and more stable than you give it credit for. Heck with free trade, agriculture has strengthened. The economy goes the way it wants to go, it's a free market. The jobs are out there and just because the manufacturing jobs phase out does not mean that the economy will not survive through other means. The money doesn't just go to the wealthy and disappear.

And the days of protectionism weren't always sunshine and rainbows. Tarriffs started talks about nullification and secession for goodness sake.

Well, it's going somewhere, for goodness sake, and it isn't to the middle class.

[houndawg]

Yeah quality is the same most of the time, except for certain regrettable short comings in things like critical aircraft hardware......and there is that Chinese drywall gassing people in their homes......and the poisonous toys for kids......


What you don't seem to get is that jobs are leaving regardless and unions are just a straw man. Break every union tomorrow and those jobs are still leaving.

Hell, why should cops and firemen and airline pilots earn more than minimum wage? We could find people to do soft gigs like those for the minimum. There's some fckrs that need to back off the entitlement complex a little.

yeah, hence why I said most of the time that is a pretty epic shortcoming, but it isn't common. I have never had a bad run-in with foreign made products. We hear about it all the time but a lot of times said defective products are recalled before they can be sold. I never mentioned Unions by the way . As for the cops and firemen and airline pilots, they earn more because we offer to pay more. If we chose to pay less, there would be some that would take the job. Piloting an airplane is perceived harder than a manufacturing job, that's why pilots are compensated more for their work

yeah, it's not like the engines fell off of a lot of airplanes.

[kalm]

Oh, btw YT, I'm a job creator and I will employ more people when the demand from my middle class customers goes up.

yes you will, but government intervention won't help your product be more attractive and more in demand, not permanently at least you'll be able to employ more people when they have more money, that doesn't necessarily come from the middle class out of nowhere. The wealthy pay the middle class and the middle class pays you. So why not let the wealthy keep some more of their money so they can pay more middle class workers you'd be helping yourself

Right, so how much more of the wealth do the the wealthy need to aquire? How much lower do their taxes need to be before they start paying the middle class? 20 years ago Ross Perot was asked at what point did he think jobs would stop leaving the U.S. if NAFTA was implemented. His answer was something to the effect of 'when U.S.wages come down to the level of Mexico's.'

Consolidation of wealth and power is as much a threat to the free market and America as big government is. Sorry YT.

[youngterrier]

yes you will, but government intervention won't help your product be more attractive and more in demand, not permanently at least you'll be able to employ more people when they have more money, that doesn't necessarily come from the middle class out of nowhere. The wealthy pay the middle class and the middle class pays you. So why not let the wealthy keep some more of their money so they can pay more middle class workers you'd be helping yourself

Right, so how much more of the wealth do the the wealthy need to aquire? How much lower do their taxes need to be before they start paying the middle class? 20 years ago Ross Perot was asked at what point did he think jobs would stop leaving the U.S. if NAFTA was implemented. His answer was something to the effect of 'when U.S.wages come down to the level of Mexico's.'

Consolidation of wealth and power is as much a threat to the free market and America as big government is. Sorry YT.

Because our money is worth less than it was 20 years ago, it's best if we cut taxes across the board so we can keep more of it. Big Business doesn't just sit on their hands and money when they are given a tax cut, they use that money to invest in other projects foreign and domestic. Consolidation of wealth isn't as dangerous as big government to the free market because the people can choose not to do business with some of the wealthy and thus lead to the wealthy losing their wealth, whereas the government is an entity that cannot be removed easily if at all.

[houndawg]

Right, so how much more of the wealth do the the wealthy need to aquire? How much lower do their taxes need to be before they start paying the middle class? 20 years ago Ross Perot was asked at what point did he think jobs would stop leaving the U.S. if NAFTA was implemented. His answer was something to the effect of 'when U.S.wages come down to the level of Mexico's.'

Consolidation of wealth and power is as much a threat to the free market and America as big government is. Sorry YT.

Because our money is worth less than it was 20 years ago, it's best if we cut taxes across the board so we can keep more of it. Big Business doesn't just sit on their hands and money when they are given a tax cut, they use that money to invest in other projects foreign and domestic. Consolidation of wealth isn't as dangerous as big government to the free market because the people can choose not to do business with some of the wealthy and thus lead to the wealthy losing their wealth, whereas the government is an entity that cannot be removed easily if at all.

YT!

Unfortunately, that consolidated wealth of which you speak owns big government, lock, stock, and barrell.

[kalm]

Because our money is worth less than it was 20 years ago, it's best if we cut taxes across the board so we can keep more of it. Big Business doesn't just sit on their hands and money when they are given a tax cut, they use that money to invest in other projects foreign and domestic. Consolidation of wealth isn't as dangerous as big government to the free market because the people can choose not to do business with some of the wealthy and thus lead to the wealthy losing their wealth, whereas the government is an entity that cannot be removed easily if at all.

YT!

Unfortunately, that consolidated wealth of which you speak owns big government, lock, stock, and barrell.

Not to mention you can't vote wealth and power out of office.

[houndawg]

YT!

Unfortunately, that consolidated wealth of which you speak owns big government, lock, stock, and barrell.

Not to mention you can't vote wealth and power out of office.

I got a feeling they don't cover that part in class....