Islam and the Intolerance Problem

[Rob Iola]

Everyone gets your point, except for the religious nutjobs here. They don't understand anything outside of total fascist theocracy.

Stop using big words, you'll just end up dumbing it down for them.


btw, when did we behead people?

Or burn witches?

[Appaholic]

This is Islam circa 2011

[native]

Stop using big words, you'll just end up dumbing it down for them.


btw, when did we behead people?

Or burn witches?

It turns out that more than 300 years ago the Salem witches were hanged, not burned, and that religion was only the excuse for the real motivations of personal power and jealousy.

[native]

This is Islam circa 2011

In this respect radical Islam has not changed in its entire existence.

[native]

... Any attentive high school student knows most of the Founders were Deists and Unitarians

Of the 39 signers of the Constitution, all but a handful professed a Christian religion. Here is the box score:

20 Episcopalians including 2 who also had Quaker leanings and 1 who had deist leanings
7 Presbyterians, including 1 who also had deist leanings
5 Congregationalists
2 Roman Catholics
2 Methodists
2 Lutherans, including 1 with Quaker leanings
1 and ONLY 1 pure Desist, our beloved Benjamin Franklin, one of my favorites

[native]

... Thomas Jefferson dismissed the Trinity as "incomprehensible jargon."

He and other Founders made no mention of God in the Constitution ...

Thomas Jefferson was serving as an Ambassador in France and did not sign the Constitution.

The founding document of which Thomas Jefferson WAS the principal author reads, in part, "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed ... And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives...

[native]

... as various scholars have noted, disestablishment grew out of respect, not disdain, for religion, which James Madison observed "flourishes in greater purity without rather than with the aid of government."

Something the Tea Party will never understand...

Correction: ...something only the Tea Party seems to understand...

[D1B]

... Any attentive high school student knows most of the Founders were Deists and Unitarians

Of the 39 signers of the Constitution, all but a handful professed a Christian religion. Here is the box score:

20 Episcopalians including 2 who also had Quaker leanings and 1 who had deist leanings
7 Presbyterians, including 1 who also had deist leanings
5 Congregationalists
2 Roman Catholics
2 Methodists
2 Lutherans, including 1 with Quaker leanings
1 and ONLY 1 pure Desist, our beloved Benjamin Franklin, one of my favorites

Nice use of the qualifier "pure" Most of em despised religion, regardless of their label.

[youngterrier]

... Thomas Jefferson dismissed the Trinity as "incomprehensible jargon."

He and other Founders made no mention of God in the Constitution ...

Thomas Jefferson was serving as an Ambassador in France and did not sign the Constitution.

The founding document of which Thomas Jefferson WAS the principal author reads, in part, "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed ... And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives...

If I am not mistaken, said highlighted terms are also deist terms, not just Christian alone. If I'm not mistaken, the term "Nature's God" was a term borrowed from Thomas Paine

[native]

Thomas Jefferson was serving as an Ambassador in France and did not sign the Constitution.

The founding document of which Thomas Jefferson WAS the principal author reads, in part, "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed ... And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives...

If I am not mistaken, said highlighted terms are also deist terms, not just Christian alone. If I'm not mistaken, the term "Nature's God" was a term borrowed from Thomas Paine

I take your points, YT, but the thoughtful, respectful and sometimes even religious Deists in the days of the Founders had a great deal more in common with the Tea Partiers of today than the "progressives" of today, who constantly show their disdain and lack of respect for all things Christian and religious.

[houndawg]

Thomas Jefferson was serving as an Ambassador in France and did not sign the Constitution.

The founding document of which Thomas Jefferson WAS the principal author reads, in part, "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed ... And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives...

If I am not mistaken, said highlighted terms are also deist terms, not just Christian alone. If I'm not mistaken, the term "Nature's God" was a term borrowed from Thomas Paine

You are correct that the highlighted terms are not exclusive to chrsitians.

Regardless of their religion they agreed that "the United States are in no sense a chrsitian nation" strongly enough to make it the Law of the Land in 1790.

[houndawg]

Or burn witches?

It turns out that more than 300 years ago the Salem witches were hanged, not burned, and that religion was only the excuse for the real motivations of personal power and jealousy.

As good a definition of religion as any.

[native]

It turns out that more than 300 years ago the Salem witches were hanged, not burned, and that religion was only the excuse for the real motivations of personal power and jealousy.

As good a definition of religion as any.

There are certainly those who use religion as an excuse. No doubt about it.

[houndawg]

Or burn witches?

It turns out that more than 300 years ago the Salem witches were hanged, not burned, and that religion was only the excuse for the real motivations of personal power and jealousy.

The Salem witches? You believe in witches, nate?

[native]

If I am not mistaken, said highlighted terms are also deist terms, not just Christian alone. If I'm not mistaken, the term "Nature's God" was a term borrowed from Thomas Paine

You are correct that the highlighted terms are not exclusive to chrsitians.

Regardless of their religion they agreed that "the United States are in no sense a chrsitian nation" strongly enough to make it the Law of the Land in 1790.

The Treaty of Tripoli was signed in 1797, not 1790, and is a treaty, not the same as the "law of the land." It validates the rule of law in the United States, which gives freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion.

[native]

It turns out that more than 300 years ago the Salem witches were hanged, not burned, and that religion was only the excuse for the real motivations of personal power and jealousy.

The Salem witches? You believe in witches, nate?

Only you and Olbermann, dawg.

[houndawg]

You are correct that the highlighted terms are not exclusive to chrsitians.

Regardless of their religion they agreed that "the United States are in no sense a chrsitian nation" strongly enough to make it the Law of the Land in 1790.

The Treaty of Tripoli was signed in 1797, not 1790, and is a treaty, not the same as the "law of the land." It validates the rule of law in the United States, which gives freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion.

1) My bad, 1797 is the correct date.

2) All treaties are law, nate: "This Constitution, and the laws which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." Article VI, section 2

3) Freedom of religion is freedom from religion.


The treaty was accepted by the Senate unanimously and signed by John Adams. There is no wiggle room, nate, this is a very clear picture of how the founding fathers viewed the subject, much to the dismay of the usual collection of crooks and control freaks that have spent the past two hundred years trying to force-feed the nation their whack job cosmology.

[native]

The Treaty of Tripoli was signed in 1797, not 1790, and is a treaty, not the same as the "law of the land." It validates the rule of law in the United States, which gives freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion.

1) My bad, 1797 is the correct date.

2) All treaties are law, nate: "This Constitution, and the laws which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." Article VI, section 2

3) Freedom of religion is freedom from religion.

...which you enjoy in great measure.

[houndawg]

1) My bad, 1797 is the correct date.

2) All treaties are law, nate: "This Constitution, and the laws which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." Article VI, section 2

3) Freedom of religion is freedom from religion.

...which you enjoy in great measure.

And wish to continue doing without input from the followers of our vast array of religions..

[native]

...which you enjoy in great measure.

And wish to continue doing.

You are in absolutely no danger of losing your freedoms even if every conceivable conservative and Tea Party candidate wins in the next election.

[houndawg]

And wish to continue doing.

You are in absolutely no danger of losing your freedoms even if every conceivable conservative and Tea Party candidate wins in the next election.

non sequitur much?

[Gil Dobie]

Or burn witches?

It turns out that more than 300 years ago the Salem witches were hanged, not burned, and that religion was only the excuse for the real motivations of personal power and jealousy.

300 years ago the people here were British Colonist. But in the 1800's the US Army and Native American's mutilated the bodies of their defeated enemies which included beheading on occasion, and was not exclusive to combatants. The Native American's generally followed their spiritual beliefs as to where and what to cut on the human body, US soldiers for other reasons such as revenge, racism, etc. Books like "Son of the Morning Star" (Custer) go into detail about the mutilations. As far as burning people at the stake, just take a look at the KKK and African American history.

[kalm]

If I am not mistaken, said highlighted terms are also deist terms, not just Christian alone. If I'm not mistaken, the term "Nature's God" was a term borrowed from Thomas Paine

I take your points, YT, but the thoughtful, respectful and sometimes even religious Deists in the days of the Founders had a great deal more in common with the Tea Partiers of today than the "progressives" of today, who constantly show their disdain and lack of respect for all things Christian and religious.

A vast majority of progressives are religious and a majority of progressives follow the teachings of the original progressive and probably more closely than the average tea bagger.

I now know why you hate the enlightenment.

[Baldy]

I take your points, YT, but the thoughtful, respectful and sometimes even religious Deists in the days of the Founders had a great deal more in common with the Tea Partiers of today than the "progressives" of today, who constantly show their disdain and lack of respect for all things Christian and religious.

A vast majority of progressives are religious and a majority of progressives follow the teachings of the original progressive and probably more closely than the average tea bagger.

I now know why you hate the enlightenment.

...and I though Paine was a cerebral ancestor of socialists and anarchists.

[blueballs]

It turns out that more than 300 years ago the Salem witches were hanged, not burned, and that religion was only the excuse for the real motivations of personal power and jealousy.

The Salem witches? You believe in witches, nate?

Yepper, we had one as Speaker of the House for the past four years.