Islam and the Intolerance Problem

[Chizzang]

There isn't one link to any of your very detailed data native..?
So you came up with all that from memory from your high school history class I guess

I was kind of making a "gesture" about Religio-political movements .vs. Purely Political movements
and How we view Islam today and how I view the Tea-party movement as a Religio-Political movement as well

I'm open to being wrong on this but based on my experiences with Tea-party spokes people and their general delivery of information I find it to be not entirely a Political movement

IF:
You're actually trying to make a very specific point about specific numbers - please back up your claims with data \

IF:
You're just disagreeing with me... no problem

[Vidav]

1) My bad, 1797 is the correct date.

2) All treaties are law, nate: "This Constitution, and the laws which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." Article VI, section 2

3) Freedom of religion is freedom from religion.

...which you enjoy in great measure.

Except religion does influence policy all the time. Look at gay marriage. The only reason to be against that is because of religion. Or you are an idiot. Stem cell research being hampered is another example. It happens all the time. So no, we do not really enjoy freedom from religion.

[Chizzang]

...which you enjoy in great measure.

Except religion does influence policy all the time. Look at gay marriage. The only reason to be against that is because of religion. Or you are an idiot. Stem cell research being hampered is another example. It happens all the time. So no, we do not really enjoy freedom from religion.

Another great point completely lost on the Tea-Party




Until the Tea-Party admits it is both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only

[native]

...IF:
You're actually trying to make a very specific point about specific numbers - please back up your claims with data \

IF:
You're just disagreeing with me... no problem

http://www.usconstitution.net/constframedata.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No problem.

[native]

... So you came up with all that from memory from your high school history class I guess ...

The part I remembered from high school was that the majority of signers were Episcopalians. When I did the research I was surprised to find out there were so few Deists among the signers and framers.

[Chizzang]

...IF:
You're actually trying to make a very specific point about specific numbers - please back up your claims with data \

IF:
You're just disagreeing with me... no problem

http://www.usconstitution.net/constframedata.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No problem.

Hey that's a pretty cool website...
I'm just like 1/2 those guys, I'm Episcopalian too - I had no idea...

[CID1990]

I like reading the subject of a thread and then skipping to the last page to see how much it has morphed into either a 1) teabaggers or a 2) jon/D1B/dawg hyperbolefest thread.

This thread definitely delivers.

[houndawg]

Except religion does influence policy all the time. Look at gay marriage. The only reason to be against that is because of religion. Or you are an idiot. Stem cell research being hampered is another example. It happens all the time. So no, we do not really enjoy freedom from religion.

Another great point completely lost on the Tea-Party




Until the Tea-Party admits it is both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only

They're getting smarter about playing down the fudamentalist christian part. Too bad they aren't serious about it. If they were I'd get me one of those electric carts from Wal-Mart and join up.

[kalm]

Another great point completely lost on the Tea-Party




Until the Tea-Party admits it is both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only

They're getting smarter about playing down the fudamentalist christian part. Too bad they aren't serious about it. If they were I'd get me one of those electric carts from Wal-Mart and join up.

You both got it wrong. They're just evangelical about liberty.

[YoUDeeMan]

So you came up with all that from memory from your high school history class I guess

Any attentive high school student knows most of the Founders were Deists and Unitarians

Irony.

[Chizzang]

So you came up with all that from memory from your high school history class I guess

Any attentive high school student knows most of the Founders were Deists and Unitarians

Irony.

That's actually not "irony" but it is entertaining...

[Chizzang]

Another great point completely lost on the Tea-Party




Until the Tea-Party admits it is both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only

They're getting smarter about playing down the fudamentalist christian part. Too bad they aren't serious about it. If they were I'd get me one of those electric carts from Wal-Mart and join up.

[native]

Except religion does influence policy all the time. Look at gay marriage. The only reason to be against that is because of religion. Or you are an idiot. Stem cell research being hampered is another example. It happens all the time. So no, we do not really enjoy freedom from religion.

Another great point completely lost on the Tea-Party



Until the Tea-Party admits it is both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only

Until the "progressives" admit they are both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only.

The truth is that progressives are more anti-religious than Tea Partiers are pro-religion.

[Chizzang]

Another great point completely lost on the Tea-Party



Until the Tea-Party admits it is both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only

Until the "progressives" admit they are both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only.

The truth is that progressives are more anti-religious than Tea Partiers are pro-religion.

Hey I said that one first... I got dibs

[native]

Until the "progressives" admit they are both a religious Movement and a Political Movement - it can't really be discussed without playing a pretend game... where I'll pretend to take it seriously and you pretend it's Political only.

The truth is that progressives are more anti-religious than Tea Partiers are pro-religion.

Hey I said that one first... I got dibs

Then you agree that "progressives" are a greater threat to liberty than the Tea Party?

[Chizzang]

Hey I said that one first... I got dibs

Then you agree that "progressives" are a greater threat to liberty than the Tea Party?

Depends on which Liberties you're referencing - there's problems with both groups...

[Vidav]

Religion dying off would be about the best thing to happen to the world since. . . well since ever.

[native]

Religion dying off would be about the best thing to happen to the world since. . . well since ever.

To the extent that religion DID die off it didn't help the people of France, Russia or China after their respective "revolutions."

[Chizzang]

Religion dying off would be about the best thing to happen to the world since. . . well since ever.

There's nothing wrong with "religion"
It just needs to stay FAR AWAY from politics

[native]

Religion dying off would be about the best thing to happen to the world since. . . well since ever.

There's nothing wrong with "religion"
It just needs to stay FAR AWAY from politics

No farther than anti-religion.

[Chizzang]

There's nothing wrong with "religion"
It just needs to stay FAR AWAY from politics

No farther than anti-religion.

BINGO..!!!
Anti-Religion is also a Religion (of sorts)


Politics should have nothing FOR or AGAINST any Religion - complete neutrality
No special interest or special bias

[Baldy]

Religion dying off would be about the best thing to happen to the world since. . . well since ever.

To the extent that religion DID die off it didn't help the people of France, Russia or China after their respective "revolutions."

...or Cambodia.

[Vidav]

Anti-religion being a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. . .

Religion going away completely, throughout the entire world, would not cause any harm whatsoever. Unless you like raping little boys and getting away with it.

[Chizzang]

Anti-religion being a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. . .

Religion going away completely, throughout the entire world, would not cause any harm whatsoever. Unless you like raping little boys and getting away with it.

I think there's an element of truth to your statement - but - I don't completely agree
The opposite of something is not Hatred of it... The opposite is complete indifference
Nobody has any problem with Religious indifference

When native says Anti-Religion I believe he is making a specific point about fervent hatred and aggressive malicious attacks

[CID1990]

Anti-religion being a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. . .

Religion going away completely, throughout the entire world, would not cause any harm whatsoever. Unless you like raping little boys and getting away with it.

I think there's an element of truth to your statement - but - I don't completely agree
The opposite of something is not Hatred of it... The opposite is complete indifference
Nobody has any problem with Religious indifference

When native says Anti-Religion I believe he is making a specific point about fervent hatred and aggressive malicious attacks

I think religion has been behind some pretty nasty things in world history, but I also think that religion in general has served a benevolent purpose, as well. Religion, (regardless of which one) has served to add homogeneity to societies. That homogeneity leads to a general promotion of basic rules and mores (like... raping little boys is wrong, killing your neighbor is wrong, etc) which in turn lead to general societal order.

When those homogenous societies overlap is when we begin to see trouble.

I guess the short version is that I do think religion has a place in the world, but I really don't have a preference for this one or that one. They are all the same at their cores.