Could Saudi Arabia be next?

[YoUDeeMan]

Yeah, I'm sure the rest of the ME was just champing at the bit to be like Iraq ca. 2003-2007.

Poor attempt at deflection.

Bottom line...right or not...Bush installed a democracy in the Middle East. He broke down one of the area's most iron fisted dictators and showed the world that things could change and that people in Middle East, with some struggles, were capable of governing themselves. If you don't think the rest of the Middle East didn't notice, then you are simply in denial.

Oh, since you seem so smug with your answer...I wonder how many countries wanted to be like America during and after the Civil War?

In your attempt to dismiss any of Bush's positive impact, you forgot that thousands of ordinary Iraqi people risked death to go to the polls. They wanted freedom; they wanted their voices to be heard. The rest of the Arab world's youths, now in their teens and 20's, saw live footage of the the price the Iraqis were willing to pay...and now you see many others who, for the first time, are willing to sacrifice their lives for their freedom.

And you just think it was a coincidence.

[YoUDeeMan]

That's an interesting take for you Cluck. I didnt you see as much of an interventionist. Also, I thought Al Gore invented the Internet.

We haven't seen whether democracy will be good for the Middle East.

But for any Lib, the thought of Obama suddenly pretending that he is in full support of the people, when just a couple months ago he was bowing to and hobnobbing with oppressive royalty, must be hilariously difficult to process.

And kalm, if you don't see the connection between Iraq's newborn democracy and the recent Arab uprisings, then you have your blinders on. They watched TV...they saw what was possible.

[Grizalltheway]

Yeah, I'm sure the rest of the ME was just champing at the bit to be like Iraq ca. 2003-2007.

Poor attempt at deflection.

Bottom line...right or not...Bush installed a democracy in the Middle East. He broke down one of the area's most iron fisted dictators and showed the world that things could change and that people in Middle East, with some struggles, were capable of governing themselves. If you don't think the rest of the Middle East didn't notice, then you are simply in denial.

Oh, since you seem so smug with your answer...I wonder how many countries wanted to be like America during and after the Civil War?

In your attempt to dismiss any of Bush's positive impact, you forgot that thousands of ordinary Iraqi people risked death to go to the polls. They wanted freedom; they wanted their voices to be heard. The rest of the Arab world's youths, now in their teens and 20's, saw live footage of the the price the Iraqis were willing to pay...and now you see many others who, for the first time, are willing to sacrifice their lives for their freedom.

And you just think it was a coincidence.

If Bush was some kind of democracy crusader, then why did he spend both his terms sucking off Saudi royalty?

[kalm]

That's an interesting take for you Cluck. I didnt you see as much of an interventionist. Also, I thought Al Gore invented the Internet.

We haven't seen whether democracy will be good for the Middle East.

But for any Lib, the thought of Obama suddenly pretending that he is in full support of the people, when just a couple months ago he was bowing to and hobnobbing with oppressive royalty, must be hilariously difficult to process.

And kalm, if you don't see the connection between Iraq's newborn democracy and the recent Arab uprisings, then you have your blinders on. They watched TV...they saw what was possible.

Sure there's a connection, and though i disagreed with it, invading iraq held many potential advantages not the least of which was creating a bulwark to fight the war on terror and stabilize the oil supply. But spreading democracy was window dressing, and I would stop short of calling it a spark.

[Skjellyfetti]

Hey Cluck, you know they've been demonstrating in Iraq as well? I guess those protests been inspired by George W. Bush? You know.. protesting against the government that he installed... that fails to provide basic services?

Iraq's prime minister called for new provincial elections Monday following anti-government protests that killed 14 people last week in a demonstration of the simmering anger many Iraqis feel at a government they say fails to provide basic services.

Nouri al-Maliki told a news conference he would ask the parliament to pass a law allowing for the early elections for the councils that rule Iraq's 18 provinces and said the move was a response to the people's demands for change.
Elections for control of Iraq's provinces are held every four years. The last ones were held in 2009 and moving them forward would require parliamentary approval. The decision already has the support of the parliament speaker, Osama al-Nujaifi, who said Sunday that he was also proposing such a move.

But its unclear whether there would be enough support within the parliament to hold the vote early and if so, how quickly a legislative body that took months to pass the last election law would act.

Having just secured a second term as prime minister, Al-Maliki is under intense pressure to show he's addressing the demands of a population angry with a lack of government services, a scarcity of jobs and rampant corruption.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=6093981" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Yeah, I'm sure the rest of the ME was just champing at the bit to be like Iraq ca. 2003-2007.

Poor attempt at deflection.

Bottom line...right or not...Bush installed a democracy in the Middle East. He broke down one of the area's most iron fisted dictators and showed the world that things could change and that people in Middle East, with some struggles, were capable of governing themselves. If you don't think the rest of the Middle East didn't notice, then you are simply in denial.

Oh, since you seem so smug with your answer...I wonder how many countries wanted to be like America during and after the Civil War?

In your attempt to dismiss any of Bush's positive impact, you forgot that thousands of ordinary Iraqi people risked death to go to the polls. They wanted freedom; they wanted their voices to be heard. The rest of the Arab world's youths, now in their teens and 20's, saw live footage of the the price the Iraqis were willing to pay...and now you see many others who, for the first time, are willing to sacrifice their lives for their freedom.

And you just think it was a coincidence.

crediting Bush for this? Seriously? and so begins the conk attempt to re-write history just like you did with Reagan? Where magically Reagan didn't grant amnesty to illegals and never ever compromised (even though he did all the time)... now all the sudden Bush magically didn't fuck up Iraq by trying to inflict democracy on it at the point of a gun.

The protesters in Tunisia and Egypt weren't in the streets because the Americans decided to violate the sovereignty of another nation to inflict regime change. If that had been the catalyst you'd have seen this shit happening between 05 and 07... didn't happen.

This push for democracy is a product of a number of things - but primarily it's this. For the first time in decades - the average citizen in even in a repressive dictatorship, has access to information that cannot be controlled by their government. they have the ability to then share that information with family and friends quickly, cheaply, and with relatively little risk... (meeting online is a hell of a lot safer than gathering in the basement of a restaurant in Cairo)

the problem for these regimes is the "V for Vendetta" problem... every time they attempt a more draconian measure, it only increases the number of dissidents. every time they attempt to grip tighter, they lose hold.

this isn't a revolution started or spurred on by the great white hope in the west... this is a revolution of, by and for the people of the arab and persian world. it's 1848 in the Middle East - and the sooner we, as Americans get over the fact that this ISN'T ABOUT US - the better off we'll be.

[∞∞∞]

Yeah, I'm sure the rest of the ME was just champing at the bit to be like Iraq ca. 2003-2007.

Poor attempt at deflection.

Bottom line...right or not...Bush installed a democracy in the Middle East. He broke down one of the area's most iron fisted dictators and showed the world that things could change and that people in Middle East, with some struggles, were capable of governing themselves. If you don't think the rest of the Middle East didn't notice, then you are simply in denial.

He did not install democracy in the Middle East. Countries like Lebanon and Turkey had democratic governments before democracy was installed in Iraq. And Bush didn't show them anything...all he showed them is that a large military force can take down an authoritarian regime...something that protesters do not have. These uprisings are a direct result of a collapsing world economy that has hit these regions significantly harder than the developed world, and regimes that haven't done anything to make their citizens happy. Uprisings have happened throughout world history and it's absolutely silly to even think that Bush showed anyone anything. When citizens reach a breaking point, these things happen. It's not because of Bush, but because history has proven this time and time again.

[Grizalltheway]

Poor attempt at deflection.

Bottom line...right or not...Bush installed a democracy in the Middle East. He broke down one of the area's most iron fisted dictators and showed the world that things could change and that people in Middle East, with some struggles, were capable of governing themselves. If you don't think the rest of the Middle East didn't notice, then you are simply in denial.

Oh, since you seem so smug with your answer...I wonder how many countries wanted to be like America during and after the Civil War?

In your attempt to dismiss any of Bush's positive impact, you forgot that thousands of ordinary Iraqi people risked death to go to the polls. They wanted freedom; they wanted their voices to be heard. The rest of the Arab world's youths, now in their teens and 20's, saw live footage of the the price the Iraqis were willing to pay...and now you see many others who, for the first time, are willing to sacrifice their lives for their freedom.

And you just think it was a coincidence.

crediting Bush for this? Seriously? and so begins the conk attempt to re-write history just like you did with Reagan? Where magically Reagan didn't grant amnesty to illegals and never ever compromised (even though he did all the time)... now all the sudden Bush magically didn't fuck up Iraq by trying to inflict democracy on it at the point of a gun.

The protesters in Tunisia and Egypt weren't in the streets because the Americans decided to violate the sovereignty of another nation to inflict regime change. If that had been the catalyst you'd have seen this shit happening between 05 and 07... didn't happen.

This push for democracy is a product of a number of things - but primarily it's this. For the first time in decades - the average citizen in even in a repressive dictatorship, has access to information that cannot be controlled by their government. they have the ability to then share that information with family and friends quickly, cheaply, and with relatively little risk... (meeting online is a hell of a lot safer than gathering in the basement of a restaurant in Cairo)

the problem for these regimes is the "V for Vendetta" problem... every time they attempt a more draconian measure, it only increases the number of dissidents. every time they attempt to grip tighter, they lose hold.

this isn't a revolution started or spurred on by the great white hope in the west... this is a revolution of, by and for the people of the arab and persian world. it's 1848 in the Middle East - and the sooner we, as Americans get over the fact that this ISN'T ABOUT US - the better off we'll be.

Cluck:

[Chizzang]

Bottom line...right or not...Bush installed a democracy in the Middle East. He broke down one of the area's most iron fisted dictators and showed the world that things could change and that people in Middle East, with some struggles, were capable of governing themselves. If you don't think the rest of the Middle East didn't notice, then you are simply in denial.

Oh, since you seem so smug with your answer...I wonder how many countries wanted to be like America during and after the Civil War?

In your attempt to dismiss any of Bush's positive impact, you forgot that thousands of ordinary Iraqi people risked death to go to the polls. They wanted freedom; they wanted their voices to be heard. The rest of the Arab world's youths, now in their teens and 20's, saw live footage of the the price the Iraqis were willing to pay...and now you see many others who, for the first time, are willing to sacrifice their lives for their freedom.

And you just think it was a coincidence.

#1 Ranking
Right wing mouth piece slogan post of the year

[YoUDeeMan]

Hey Cluck, you know they've been demonstrating in Iraq as well? I guess those protests been inspired by George W. Bush? You know.. protesting against the government that he installed... that fails to provide basic services?

The answer is obvious...democracy is not always pretty. You were expecting a perfect utopia?

At least the Iraqi people can call for elections...and they'll most likely be disappointed with the government that gets elected next time also. But, at least it will be a government chosen by the people...as ignorant as some of them might be.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Hey Cluck, you know they've been demonstrating in Iraq as well? I guess those protests been inspired by George W. Bush? You know.. protesting against the government that he installed... that fails to provide basic services?

The answer is obvious...democracy is not always pretty. You were expecting a perfect utopia?

At least the Iraqi people can call for elections...and they'll most likely be disappointed with the government that gets elected next time also. But, at least it will be a government chosen by the people...as ignorant as some of them might be.

if you're going to quote Donald Rumsfeld while Baghdad burned amidst a week of unchecked looting and thuggery - please cite him.

[YoUDeeMan]

crediting Bush for this? Seriously? and so begins the conk attempt to re-write history just like you did with Reagan? Where magically Reagan didn't grant amnesty to illegals and never ever compromised (even though he did all the time)... now all the sudden Bush magically didn't **** up Iraq by trying to inflict democracy on it at the point of a gun.

The protesters in Tunisia and Egypt weren't in the streets because the Americans decided to violate the sovereignty of another nation to inflict regime change. If that had been the catalyst you'd have seen this **** happening between 05 and 07... didn't happen.

This push for democracy is a product of a number of things - but primarily it's this. For the first time in decades - the average citizen in even in a repressive dictatorship, has access to information that cannot be controlled by their government. they have the ability to then share that information with family and friends quickly, cheaply, and with relatively little risk... (meeting online is a hell of a lot safer than gathering in the basement of a restaurant in Cairo)

the problem for these regimes is the "V for Vendetta" problem... every time they attempt a more draconian measure, it only increases the number of dissidents. every time they attempt to grip tighter, they lose hold.

this isn't a revolution started or spurred on by the great white hope in the west... this is a revolution of, by and for the people of the arab and persian world. it's 1848 in the Middle East - and the sooner we, as Americans get over the fact that this ISN'T ABOUT US - the better off we'll be.

Certainly technology is part of this latest upwelling of ordinary people.

And what information did they see on their magic tech devices? Are you actually telling me that young Arabs were not inspired by the ouster of Saddam and the images of Iraqis voting...under the threat of death? Ditto the images of the voters in Afghanistan?

And forget comparisons to Turkey and other established democracies. The young people leading the revolts in the Arab world never got to see those countries emerge from a dictatorship. Lebanon was occupied by Syria...but had freedoms before that. Iran's revolution is ancient history...and not exactly the script that most Arabs want.

Nope...the images of Saddam falling...and the people voting...were a powerful message to young folks all over the Midle East. It just took some time for things to take shape.

Hmmmm....wonder what the old world's collective governments thought when America won independence from Britain? What did the people in the streets heard...without mobile phones?

[Chizzang]

The answer is obvious...democracy is not always pretty. You were expecting a perfect utopia?

At least the Iraqi people can call for elections...and they'll most likely be disappointed with the government that gets elected next time also. But, at least it will be a government chosen by the people...as ignorant as some of them might be.

if you're going to quote Donald Rumsfeld while Baghdad burned amidst a week of unchecked looting and thuggery - please cite him.

The idea that Democracy can be "given" to peoples is ridiculous...
And that wasn't the intent of the Iraq war anyway - so I'm not sure why that's even being brought up
and when it's all said and done there will not be a republic or a democracy in Iraq

[YoUDeeMan]

if you're going to quote Donald Rumsfeld while Baghdad burned amidst a week of unchecked looting and thuggery - please cite him.

Never heard him say that, but it sure is an accurate thing to say. Didn't bother to listen to D.R. much.

Let me know how you expect real change to take place. Seems as though some folks think all they need to do is to wave some magic "fairness" wand and everyone will sing songs together and share bread peacefully.

[Skjellyfetti]

Let me know how you expect real change to take place. Seems as though some folks think all they need to do is to wave some magic "fairness" wand and everyone will sing songs together and share bread peacefully.

You know there's middle ground between the two extremes, right?

Sure, sitting around in burning incense and singing folk songs doesn't change governments effectively... And bombing countries into submission, instituting martial law, killing 100,000 civilians isn't a very good way to force democracy onto a country. If you think the latter isn't a good way to spread democracy... it doesn't mean you support the former.

[YoUDeeMan]

The idea that Democracy can be "given" to peoples is ridiculous...
And that wasn't the intent of the Iraq war anyway - so I'm not sure why that's even being brought up
and when it's all said and done there will not be a republic or a democracy in Iraq

Who said democracy was "given" to anyone? Do you have that idea? Seems as though most Libs do...as if Democracy is painless. Why can't everyone just get along?

And your blathering about whether Democracy was the intent of the Iraq war is irrelevent. Many inventions and/or great moments in history are a result of people taking advantage of unexpected situations. Opportunity is such a fickle lady.

In the end, Bush installed a democracy in the middle of a bunch of old boy network countries (c'mon, Chiz, you have to LOVE that irony) and the flicker of freedom raised its head enough to shake the Middle East to its core.

As far as the future goes, who knows? The Arab world has always been about back door bargains made between ruthless poltical and business leaders. Imagine that...money rules. So, it really doesn't matter if the goverments are democratic or not...but the people will have more say in their governance...at least they will think they will...and that is what is really important.

[Chizzang]

You know there's middle ground between the two extremes, right?

Sure, sitting around in burning incense and singing folk songs doesn't change governments effectively... And bombing countries into submission, instituting martial law, killing 100,000 civilians isn't a very good way to force democracy onto a country. If you think the latter isn't a good way to spread democracy... it doesn't mean you support the former.

This statement (above) is so obviously true and also so historically true it's sad it has to even be printed as though it were some kind of revelation...

I repeat:
Democracy CAN NOT be given - it must be taken - and only by those who are willing to die for it...
Carpet bombing for Democracy - does not work - will not work - has never worked (the end)


ANd this just in Cluck Iraq will never be a Democracy on it's own...
we'll have to stay forever to make that happen

[Wedgebuster]

[YoUDeeMan]

Let me know how you expect real change to take place. Seems as though some folks think all they need to do is to wave some magic "fairness" wand and everyone will sing songs together and share bread peacefully.

You know there's middle ground between the two extremes, right?

Sure, sitting around in burning incense and singing folk songs doesn't change governments effectively... And bombing countries into submission, instituting martial law, killing 100,000 civilians isn't a very good way to force democracy onto a country. If you think the latter isn't a good way to spread democracy... it doesn't mean you support the former.

Time for a history quiz.

Questions 1: name the countries that unshackled themselves from a dictator and insitituted a democracy..and identify the casualty rates.
Question 2: Who, exactly, killed 100,000 civilians?

Bonus question: How many casualties were there in the American Civl War? How do you think civil wars relate to governance of the people and how does one avoid civil war?

Bonus question II: If you saw a person getting beaten, enslaved, tortured and murdered, would you turn your back and walk away or would you help?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

crediting Bush for this? Seriously? and so begins the conk attempt to re-write history just like you did with Reagan? Where magically Reagan didn't grant amnesty to illegals and never ever compromised (even though he did all the time)... now all the sudden Bush magically didn't **** up Iraq by trying to inflict democracy on it at the point of a gun.

The protesters in Tunisia and Egypt weren't in the streets because the Americans decided to violate the sovereignty of another nation to inflict regime change. If that had been the catalyst you'd have seen this **** happening between 05 and 07... didn't happen.

This push for democracy is a product of a number of things - but primarily it's this. For the first time in decades - the average citizen in even in a repressive dictatorship, has access to information that cannot be controlled by their government. they have the ability to then share that information with family and friends quickly, cheaply, and with relatively little risk... (meeting online is a hell of a lot safer than gathering in the basement of a restaurant in Cairo)

the problem for these regimes is the "V for Vendetta" problem... every time they attempt a more draconian measure, it only increases the number of dissidents. every time they attempt to grip tighter, they lose hold.

this isn't a revolution started or spurred on by the great white hope in the west... this is a revolution of, by and for the people of the arab and persian world. it's 1848 in the Middle East - and the sooner we, as Americans get over the fact that this ISN'T ABOUT US - the better off we'll be.

Certainly technology is part of this latest upwelling of ordinary people.

And what information did they see on their magic tech devices? Are you actually telling me that young Arabs were not inspired by the ouster of Saddam and the images of Iraqis voting...under the threat of death? Ditto the images of the voters in Afghanistan?

And forget comparisons to Turkey and other established democracies. The young people leading the revolts in the Arab world never got to see those countries emerge from a dictatorship. Lebanon was occupied by Syria...but had freedoms before that. Iran's revolution is ancient history...and not exactly the script that most Arabs want.

Nope...the images of Saddam falling...and the people voting...were a powerful message to young folks all over the Midle East. It just took some time for things to take shape.

Hmmmm....wonder what the old world's collective governments thought when America won independence from Britain? What did the people in the streets heard...without mobile phones?

The images of American tanks pulling down a statue of Saddam and tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians likely didn't do much to get them excited... remember - the Arab world gets it's news from Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabiya and state-run networks... not the "sanitized for American viewers" version we got from embedded reporters and cheerleaders with infographics in 03... and yes, it was sensationalized the other way too... my point is that their interpretation of events in Iraq are nothing like you are suggesting

The myth that the Great White Father somehow delivered unto the Arab world the notion of representative democracy and individual liberty is both offensive and absurd.

[YoUDeeMan]

This statement (above) is so obviously true and also so historically true it's sad it has to even be printed as though it were some kind of revelation...

I repeat:
Democracy CAN NOT be given - it must be taken - and only by those who are willing to die for it...
Carpet bombing for Democracy - does not work - will not work - has never worked (the end)


ANd this just in Cluck Iraq will never be a Democracy on it's own...
we'll have to stay forever to make that happen

Oddly enough, the Iraqis, with some help, have proven they are willing to die for democracy.

This just in: somewhere in France, around 1776, there was an isolationist who was telling anyone who listened that shooting rifles and cannons for Democracy will never work.

[Skjellyfetti]

Some peaceful revolutions... just from the 2000's:



Bulldozer Revolution - Yugoslavia, 2000

The uprising credited with opening the door to other democratic revolutions in Soviet republics in the 2000s is the Bulldozer Revolution, which overthrew Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic in 2000 (The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was later renamed Serbia and Montenegro).

The protests were a response to Mr. Milosevic’s political maneuvering to secure another term as president. The opposition parties rallied to run an opposition candidate who could beat Milosevic and declared victory in the election. When the electoral commission said there would need to be a runoff because neither Milosevic nor the opposition won a majority, demands intensified for Milosevic step down. He refused.

A general strike and widespread protests commenced, with people coming to Belgrade from all over the country. They stormed the parliament, overwhelming the police stationed there and setting part of the parliament building on fire. The opposition candidate declared victory by the end of the day, and Milosevic resigned.

Rose Revolution: Georgia, 20003

Not one person was injured, not a drop of blood was spilled.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators took to the streets to protest against the flawed results of a parliamentary election.

The demonstrators demanded the resignation of Eduard Shevardnadze, a man who had ruled Georgia for more than 30 years in total, as its Soviet-era Communist Party boss and its longest-serving post-independence president.

Mr Shevardnadze told protesters they risked causing a civil war and he deployed hundreds of soldiers on the streets of Tbilisi.

At that point, student demonstrators decided to give red roses to the soldiers.

Many soldiers laid down their guns.

Cedar Revolution - Lebanon, 2005

On February 18, 2005, the opposition launched the “Independence Peaceful Uprising” to liberate Lebanon, motivating the Lebanese mass to support its move. The Lebanese in occupied Lebanon and in Diaspora held mass rallies to support the freedom of their occupied motherland. The protests continued -- larger, louder and bolder -- until the pro-Syrian government in Lebanon resigned on February 28, 2005.

Orange Revolution - Ukraine, 2006

When a mob of students took over part of the nearby Ministry of Education building, staffers served them tea and cookies. Yushchenko, his face disfigured by what he claims was an attempt by government authorities to poison him in September, urged people not to leave the Square until the Electoral Commission's ruling was overturned. "We appeal to citizens of Ukraine to support the national resistance movement," he told the cheering throng. "We should not leave this square until we secure victory."

And his supporters did just that. On Saturday evening, after six days of nonstop, peaceful protests, the state and its candidate were forced to back down.

[YoUDeeMan]

The images of American tanks pulling down a statue of Saddam and tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians likely didn't do much to get them excited... remember - the Arab world gets it's news from Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabiya and state-run networks... not the "sanitized for American viewers" version we got from embedded reporters and cheerleaders with infographics in 03... and yes, it was sensationalized the other way too... my point is that their interpretation of events in Iraq are nothing like you are suggesting

The myth that the Great White Father somehow delivered unto the Arab world the notion of representative democracy and individual liberty is both offensive and absurd.

Interesting that you have this image of the Great White Father in your head. Ever been to counseling for that?

And yes, there was a whole lot more going on that most CNN viewers understood. Middle Eastern folks were angered and embarrased that one of their own was taken down by the evil "outsiders" - those ME's clearly are as bigoted as you and your statement.

Anything but humiliation.

However, the Arab world has harbored some of the most ruthless regimes in the history of man...for many decades. Woo-hoo! And Big, Bad America is undermining all that is beautiful and great in the Middle East...infidels that we are.

Wait...they love us. No, they hate us. Well, they love "us" but hate our government. And they hate their government...but they'll defend their tyranical government if our government interferes.

Got it.

Anyway, you've put a lot of anger and misinformation into my posts...but that's because you are struggling to understand reality. History will show that Iraq's democracy wasn't an isolated event. History rarely is.

[YoUDeeMan]

Some peaceful revolutions... just from the 2000's:

Thanks. Let's see, all of those protests were in reaction to lost elections...rigged as they were. Cripes, at least they've got more gumption than the residents of Chicago.

Got any peaceful revolutions that involved the overthrow of a ruthless dictator who murdered 10s of thousands of his own people each year?

[Skjellyfetti]

Some peaceful revolutions... just from the 2000's:

Thanks. Let's see, all of those protests were in reaction to lost elections...rigged as they were. Cripes, at least they've got more gumption than the residents of Chicago.

Got any peaceful revolutions that involved the overthrow of a ruthless dictator who murdered 10s of thousands of his own people each year?

First one was the overthrow of Slobodan Milosovic, smart guy. Remember Kosovo? 200,000 muslims hunted down and systematically killed?

Eduard Shevardnadze was a dictator who ruled Georgia for 30+ years and was also accused of mass murder of political opponents and minorities


Cripes.