Could Saudi Arabia be next?

[BDKJMU]

Did the Soviets end up occupied and surrendering at the end of WWII

Normally I would use the word "stupid" here...

But I'm not because thats not nice and clearly you have a different perspective on what "bombing people for democracy" and WWII are as comparative distinctions

But I do need to use one of these

You're the one who brought up carpet bombing in reference to Iraq, which is clearly baloney.

[SeattleGriz]

I repeat:
Democracy CAN NOT be given - it must be taken - and only by those who are willing to die for it...
Carpet bombing for Democracy - does not work - will not work - has never worked (the end)


ANd this just in Cluck Iraq will never be a Democracy on it's own...
we'll have to stay forever to make that happen

So the next question, and we (CS.Com) discussed this a couple of years ago is:

Does carpet bombing work, when you kill the adults that never saw freedom, while their children grow up a generation glimpsing freedom?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

It would appear to me that he is answering Chizz's statement. I doesn't appear that he was putting Vietnam forth as an example.

Fine, but the WWII example is bollocks. We only decided to enter the war and "bring them democracy" after we were directly attacked.

I didn't see any claims contrary to what you are saying here so I'm not sure that is even a point of contention?

[YoUDeeMan]

First one was the overthrow of Slobodan Milosovic, smart guy. Remember Kosovo? 200,000 muslims hunted down and systematically killed?

Eduard Shevardnadze was a dictator who ruled Georgia for 30+ years and was also accused of mass murder of political opponents and minorities


Cripes.

Thanks jellybean...next time I need help proving a point, I know I can rely on you.

Yugoslavia had, in relative terms, just broken up into pieces...and a few pieces were still trying to glue themselves together...the result was a civil war. And in that civil war...you know, where people got killed, the factions were separated by...uh....well, you know, US and NATO bombing. Yup, we pretty much settled that with force...and we bombed a country into submission.

Sure, Milo tried to keep it all together, but he couldn't because of the damage done by...well, you know, American forces.

As far as Georgia goes, there were legitimate opposition parties in Georgia that constituted a large segment of the population and those parties were allowed to participate in the government. Let's go over that concept again...Georgia had recognized opposition parties that participated in their government.

How does that equate to Iraq?

[Skjellyfetti]

How does that equate to Iraq?

I didn't equate it to Iraq. Could you point out where I did that?

I was showing you the middle ground in revolutions... since you seemed to believe it's either holding hands singing "Kumbaya" or bombing a country into democracy. Those are examples in between.

[YoUDeeMan]

You didn't say 1995. You said 1992. And he won in 1992 with 98% of the vote.

And what he did in dismantling the USSR has nothing to do with how he ran the Georgian state.

Running the government for 30 years... with no opposition and sham elections meets the definition of dictator to me. But, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

Foreign Policy magazine doesn't hesitate to call him a dictator:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... revolution" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://oilandglory.foreignpolicy.com/po ... s_playbook" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey, you know what's funny? You keep helping me out.

Iron fisted dictators don't go quietly into the night unless they are faced with violence. Milo saw NATO kill his boys, then tried to push his little election gambit, but when faced with revolt...and with the recent NATO bombings fresh in his memory...decided to "resign".

Shev saw he was going to be threatened with violence...yup, even your supporting link says as much...and he resigned. But your link again supports the fact that he wasn't an iron handed dictator.



"In 2003, demonstrators broke into the Georgian Parliament, and made it clear that violence was the next step in their efforts to remove Shevardnadze as president; he resigned. Two years later, angry protesters gathered in the central square of the Uzbek city of Andijan, among other things demanding Karimov's ouster. That evening, soldiers mowed them down with automatic weapons; several hundred Uzbeks died. Karimov remains president.

Shevardnadze and Karimov are two different people - the former was Mikhail Gorbachev's statesmanlike foreign minister before he went home and took a different turn; Karimov is a vicious and slightly twisted strongman, and pretty much always has been in public life. But that's precisely the point - given broadly similar situations (people in the streets), they responded in alignment with how we have come to know them over the years. No one can be surprised by either of their responses to challenge."

[Skjellyfetti]

It was still peaceful... whether violence would have eventually taken place or not.

And I didn't cite the Uzbek revolution as an example.


CluckU is having a difficult time seeing the fact that successful and peaceful revolution is possible despite the fact that it has occurred numerous times in the last decade.

[YoUDeeMan]

How does that equate to Iraq?

I didn't equate it to Iraq. Could you point out where I did that?

I was showing you the middle ground in revolutions... since you seemed to believe it's either holding hands singing "Kumbaya" or bombing a country into democracy. Those are examples in between.

Middle grounds in revolutions require cooperation from both sides. That doesn't happen in a real dictatorship where the dictator rules with an iron fist.

In the countries you've cited, everything needed for democracy was already in place. Heck, they were already practicing democracy. People were voting in droves, opposition parties were already actively and legally participating in a government...even if the election results are skewed to keep some guy in power for a bit.

Hell, some people describe Bush as a murderous dictator who stole an election.

That is a far cry from changing a true dictatorship to a democracy.

[BDKJMU]

The issue in this wil be the fact that we should've done something starting back in the 1970's in regards to serious movements towards alternative energy & it has been squashed by lobbyists & big oil forthe past 30-plus years. Maybe if there is one thing that will finally end America's addiction to oil it'll be oil that we no longer wanna pay for....

Just like drilling in a barren frozen tundra of mud and rock called ANWR has been squashed by the enviros for the last several decades. US imports from Saudi about 1 million barrels a day. ANWR USGS estimates are 6-16 billion barrels, which would be from about 600k to 1.6 million barrels a day for 30 yrs. Spare me the it would take 10 yrs to get to market. Thats what people said when Clinton vetoed it in 96', and the donks in the Senate fillibustered it in 02'-05' & 05'.

In addition there are untapped resources off of both coasts. So in addition to ending Obama's de facto deepwater ban in the Gulf and foot dragging on Artic Ocean permits, maybe if there is one thing that will end America's failure to develop its own natural resources, its this.

[BDKJMU]

GD double post..

[SDHornet]

So if these countries do set up their democracies, how ling until they start voting in “radical Muslims” and how long until the religious right is up in arms about how we can’t sit by and let this happen?

[YoUDeeMan]

So if these countries do set up their democracies, how ling until they start voting in “radical Muslims” and how long until the religious right is up in arms about how we can’t sit by and let this happen?

Capitalism...the source of all solutions in this world...will take care of this problem.

All we have to do is "humiliate" the Muslim radicals. It throws them into a furor. At the same time, we talk trash to the religious right in this country about how their God has let them become weak and unwilling to fight for what is good.

As the kettles boil, we introduce the World Order of Wrestling (WOW) to the UN as a way to settle disputes.

Muslims and Christians from around the world could dress up as their favorite characters and literally beat the living snot out of the other side.

Imagine the match ups. JC versus Mohammed would always be the big draw, but in the tag team events, who would play Judas, a Christian or a Muslim? Would JC be able to leave the ring, defeated and dead, only to return after hiding behind a rock? Imagine the extra incentive for a Muslim wrestler when he sees a Christian opponent dressed up as a young Mohammed reading porn magazines while pooping in his diapers. Ali versus Abu Bakr would make a wonderful sub plot...as would Martin Luther versus the Pope.

Nightly winners would get to blow up/burn something something from the other side...a church, mosque, statue or flag...or make an offer of forgiveness...with the video and a 10 second rant to be shown on CNN and rebroadcast around the world. TV rights could be sold with the prophets...errr, profits...distributed according to each side's winning percentage.

The violence would be contained to scheduled matches, and each side would get a venue for more recruits. What could be better?

[BDKJMU]

[93henfan]

Not that it makes bowing to a Saudi king right, but Obama compulsively bows before people. They have him down for bowing to the emperor of Japan, the president of China, and most recently the mayor of Tampa. WTF?

[UNI88]

Not that it makes bowing to a Saudi king right, but Obama compulsively bows before people. They have him down for bowing to the emperor of Japan, the president of China, and most recently the mayor of Tampa. WTF?

Maybe the mayor of Tampa offered a limo ride to Mons?

[YoUDeeMan]

The question becomes...when is it our turn?

"Talj: Let us not forget that the United States was busy the last thirty years with the Cold War, which took a lot of time; and with President Gorbachev it came to an end. Then, they had to go on further and divide Eastern Europe and the old USSR. After that, the Muslim world became an important strategic focus to the United States' external politics, and ever since the fall of the USSR, many agencies in the United States have been trying to find a solution to the growing number of Muslims throughout the world. We have seen, since September 11 many maneuvers by the United States through former Egyptian President Mubarak and other leaders in the region, trying to find a way to clash Sunnis and Shias in the Middle East in order to let the Muslims focus on killing each other; on dividing the region, instead of focusing on growing in the West and mainly in the United States. Let us not forget that Islam is the most growing religion in the United States and in most of the European countries today. So there is no doubt that the Muslim world is a number one focus in the United States. "

"David Cameron did not meet with any representative of the Brothers. By not meeting with them, he is not removing any legitimacy or credibility from them. He is just alienating those people. In the next two months, when they [Muslim Brotherhood] get the majority in the parliament, how would the relation with Egypt continue?"

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/167993.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JoltinJoe better get busy...after these revolutions, the Muslins are going to get back to focusing on growing like cotton trees in the West. Once they become a large enough part of our society, their demands will increase. And when they get a majority, the fun really begins!

C'mon, Joe...Allah is kicking Jesus' azz. Better get over there and set them straight.

[93henfan]

I'm not Catholic, but if the shiznit ever hit the fan I'd fight with them.

You get to wear cool gear:

[YoUDeeMan]

I'm not Catholic, but if the shiznit ever hit the fan I'd fight with them.

You get to wear cool gear:

Start practicing now. You can never be too prepared.

http://www.dvmamedieval.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[93henfan]

I'm not Catholic, but if the shiznit ever hit the fan I'd fight with them.

You get to wear cool gear:

Start practicing now. You can never be too prepared.

http://www.dvmamedieval.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Funny you should mention. I had a fellow Marine officer out at Camp Pendleton who was way into the medieval stuff. Here is his website : http://mattyds.com/

Known as Baron Diomedes Sebastianus (registered), or more commonly "D. Sebastian", in the Society for Creative Anachronism, I am the Squire of Sir Arthur "Artorius" Watson of Silver Oak, Grand-Squire to Duke Lucan von Drachenklaue, and a member of the Great Haus VDK, where I hold the titles Buccelari and Cataphract. I am a proud soldier of the Northern Army, enacting the will of the Crown of the Kingdom of the East. I am being tutored in the ways of the gentle arts by the Baroness of Barony Beyond the Mountain, Mistress Aelfgifa of the Hazel Thicket -aka- Shiro.

[Pwns]

Let me posit another hypothesis that has nothing to do with the Iraq war or the availability of the internet: the recession factor. When times get worse those in power are in trouble even if they have no control over things getting worse. And people will want things to change even if making those changes are not the best idea.

It's a good thing these countries have so many young people that are blaming dictatorships for their problems even if the dictators aren't at fault for their problems.

[LeadBolt]

Saudi Arabia certainly seems ripe for the picking, but where ever is next, and rest assured there is a whole string of next's coming, the real prize is the US.

JQ Adams and T Jefferson pointed the nature of Islam out a couple of centuries ago to Americans. While other religions, notably my own of Christianity, have gone against their teachings and propagated unjust war and repression, only Islam of the world's major religions, make war and repression an integral part of their religion. Islamic scriptures make that clear.

The vast majority of Muslims who are peaceful good neighbors are irrelevant to this aspect of modern life and can not control the radicals as the peaceful followers of Islam are not following their own religion. This is much the same as the vast majority of peaceful Germans were irrelevant in the face of the Nazi's in the 1930's in stopping Nazi excesses.

There is no more intolerant and violent religion or group of people on the face of the earth than Muslims that follow their scriptural teachings..

[YoUDeeMan]

Funny you should mention. I had a fellow Marine officer out at Camp Pendleton who was way into the medieval stuff. Here is his website : http://mattyds.com/

Known as Baron Diomedes Sebastianus (registered), or more commonly "D. Sebastian", in the Society for Creative Anachronism, I am the Squire of Sir Arthur "Artorius" Watson of Silver Oak, Grand-Squire to Duke Lucan von Drachenklaue, and a member of the Great Haus VDK, where I hold the titles Buccelari and Cataphract. I am a proud soldier of the Northern Army, enacting the will of the Crown of the Kingdom of the East. I am being tutored in the ways of the gentle arts by the Baroness of Barony Beyond the Mountain, Mistress Aelfgifa of the Hazel Thicket -aka- Shiro.

Good thing he's a Marine...cross training with a sword, longbow and a lance probably gets him extra weapons pay.

But what's with the "gentle arts" crap? If he was really a Marine doubling as Baron Grand Squirter with the title of Recalcitrant Brocolli eating Northern Army dude, he'd just toss Mistress Alfalpha over a stone wall and have his not-so-gentle way with her.

[YoUDeeMan]

Let me posit another hypothesis that has nothing to do with the Iraq war or the availability of the internet: the recession factor. When times get worse those in power are in trouble even if they have no control over things getting worse. And people will want things to change even if making those changes are not the best idea.

It's a good thing these countries have so many young people that are blaming dictatorships for their problems even if the dictators aren't at fault for their problems.

C'mon, now you've really gone out on a limb.

The Arab population is used to eating dirt...well, sand, actually...it's what they do to survive. And just how much has the price of sand gone up due to the recession?

[Grizalltheway]

Saudi Arabia certainly seems ripe for the picking, but where ever is next, and rest assured there is a whole string of next's coming, the real prize is the US.

JQ Adams and T Jefferson pointed the nature of Islam out a couple of centuries ago to Americans. While other religions, notably my own of Christianity, have gone against their teachings and propagated unjust war and repression, only Islam of the world's major religions, make war and repression an integral part of their religion. Islamic scriptures make that clear.

The vast majority of Muslims who are peaceful good neighbors are irrelevant to this aspect of modern life and can not control the radicals as the peaceful followers of Islam are not following their own religion. This is much the same as the vast majority of peaceful Germans were irrelevant in the face of the Nazi's in the 1930's in stopping Nazi excesses.

There is no more intolerant and violent religion or group of people on the face of the earth than Muslims that follow their scriptural teachings..

Excellent post.

[YoUDeeMan]

Saudi Arabia certainly seems ripe for the picking, but where ever is next, and rest assured there is a whole string of next's coming, the real prize is the US.

JQ Adams and T Jefferson pointed the nature of Islam out a couple of centuries ago to Americans. While other religions, notably my own of Christianity, have gone against their teachings and propagated unjust war and repression, only Islam of the world's major religions, make war and repression an integral part of their religion. Islamic scriptures make that clear.

The vast majority of Muslims who are peaceful good neighbors are irrelevant to this aspect of modern life and can not control the radicals as the peaceful followers of Islam are not following their own religion. This is much the same as the vast majority of peaceful Germans were irrelevant in the face of the Nazi's in the 1930's in stopping Nazi excesses.

There is no more intolerant and violent religion or group of people on the face of the earth than Muslims that follow their scriptural teachings..

They've started in our prisons...converting the worst of our society to Islam. And they are taking advantage of the Christian policy of forgiveness. Every time we let one of those prisoners out - the fault of the Liberal judges, another seed gets planted into the general population. Soon, there will be calls to release our "political" prisoners.

Cripes, they can be sneaky. House of Pain's singer, whom everyone believed was an Irish Catholic boy, praised Allah on the Jump Around album. Then he openly converted and turned his back on his friends.

One of our brest and brightest is converted right in front of our eyes! Listen to what he said in an interview:

"The words and the exemplary life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad are a direct way to God and the connection to the truth. "Islam is like gas into the car."'

Holy Crap! "Exemplary life of the Holy Prophet Muhammed..." Sure, everyone should go around and slay his enemies!

Next, they'll go after our ugly women and tell them to cover themselves up - as a way to make themselves desirable. Watch, it will work. And no voting...women should shut up and hide until needed.

God save us all.