Handouts make up 1/3 of US wages

[kalm]

There is no such thing as perpetual growth. Not in our economy, not in anyone's economy. Not now, not before. You, plain and simply, are not dealing in reality.

I think in the final analysis you are correct: Nothing can grow infinitely. But our system...the world's system and not just the United States...is based on the idea of a continually growing economy.

In any case, wealth is not a fixed quantity. There is no great pie of wealth dropped from heaven that is then distributed among the people. Wealth is created through the generation of goods and services. Money, nowadays, is just a medium of exchange.

The reality IS that the "middle" of the income distribution is better off now in terms of inflation adjusted value of its income than it was in the 1950s. I'm not going to look it up now but I recently did for another thread. And the reality IS that the top 1% (or whatever percent) controlling a greater percentage of the wealth now than it did X years ago does not mean that the other 99% of the people have less wealth than they did X years ago.

The whole deal with the "wealth inequality" thing is simply the politics of envy. That's all it is.

Yet here we are, in massive personal and national debt, seemingly unable to afford as much as we used to. If what you're saying is true, the only explanation is over-consumption. Unneccessarily going into debt over expensive cars, large homes, laptops, ipads, cable tv, ipods, internet, cell phones etc. Of course much of our economy is based on this consumption, so where would that leave us?

Your homework, if you so accept, is to find out the percentage of income the middle class was paying on healthcare, college tuition for their kids, and putting away for their retirement in the 50's or 60's versus today. And the loss our economy would have suffered had we consumed less.

Until then, I call bullshit on your envy meme.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Where I honestly feel the middle class is suffering is in the amount of debt the average middle class family owes. When the economy boomed in the 90s, the middle class were living well and living beyond their means. It started catching them during the Bush recession, excuse me, the 1st Busch recession, in 2001 and a lot of them haven't recovered.

This is why you've seen payday lenders, pawn shops, title loan places, etc, etc THRIVE the last 10 years or so. People didn't expect it, or didn't PREPARE for it and it has affected credit ratings all across the board.

We should've followed the Joseph method. During the years of plenty, prepare for the years of famine to come.

Every entitlement within the government needs to be reexamined. Even as a libertarian, I believe some programs are necessary for the basic survival of some people, but the amount of abusers is enough to make one vomit. A large percent of the populace treats medicare and medicaid as if it is some get out of jail free card and the large amount of folks who default on their medical bills is what is driving medical care costs THROUGH THE ROOF.

I recall one WJ Clinton calling for such a thing in 1998-1999... and having it fall on deaf ears...

[eagleskins]

Just always makes me laugh when I see a neck with a republican sticker on his 84 Caprice while living in the trailer park collecting food stamps.

[kalm]

Just always makes me laugh when I see a neck with a republican sticker on his 84 Caprice while living in the trailer park collecting food stamps.

But you never know when he might win the lottery and if he does you want him paying a low enough tax rate that prevents non- producers from stealing from him.

[catamount man]

Just always makes me laugh when I see a neck with a republican sticker on his 84 Caprice while living in the trailer park collecting food stamps.

Seriously made me laugh. I was talking to an elderly neck the other day. She was complaining about not getting a raise on her SS check (GIVE ME A BREAK!!!) and then yelled "OBAMA IS RUINING THIS COUNTRY!!!" Now I normally try to refrain from any political banter while on phone with clients, consumers, lawyers, etc but I just couldn't pass this one up and I calmly go "Ma'am, this nation hasn't had a good President since JFK." She didn't have much to say other than neckish drivel.

What I love is now the older crowd here in the South is getting on the Huckabee bandwagon. Here's why, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Fundamental Christian, white, Republican. These people truly don't want change. As long as it is a white man giving them "what they've earned all my life" it's okay, but to even remotely suggest that that would be taken away by, and you all know the word , is akin to slapping their mama.

When people say "we need to get back to how it used to be" what they are really saying is they want to suck from the white racist tit. The SS crowd stands just as much to lose if a guy like Ron Paul gets elected just as much as the welfare crowd does as well. Unfortunately, this is why he'll never win an election and it kills me to say that.

[Franks Tanks]

Privatize the DOD, put you on a private contractors payroll, and let their profits trickle down to ya, homey.

Um, do you think public employees are building all the missiles, planes, ships, tanks...

Private contractors are already getting most of the DoD dime. My position is deemed "inherently governmental", so it couldn't be performed by a contractor.

Stop spending so much on the military period. Enough 30 million dollar planes and 10 million dollar tanks.

[YoUDeeMan]

Unfortunately, for the rest of you, it doesn't actually kill me to say that. I'll live long enough to post again.

FIFY

[LeadBolt]

I just helped one of my daughter do her taxes. She left her job to go do volunteer work for 6 months and then back to school full time. She is entitled to a refund of more than she paid in taxes last year. That's just not right.

There is a difference between handouts (the title of this thread), like my daughter is entitled to and wages to employees.

There needs to be a rationalization of the federal government to stream line it and do away with overlapping/unnecessary programs, as well as to look at entitlements. With 50% of the populace not paying into the system and 70% getting more out than they pay in, along with the huge amount of both public and private debt the whole system is a house of cards.

[Appaholic]

Where I honestly feel the middle class is suffering is in the amount of debt the average middle class family owes. When the economy boomed in the 90s, the middle class were living well and living beyond their means. It started catching them during the Bush recession, excuse me, the 1st Busch recession, in 2001 and a lot of them haven't recovered.

This is why you've seen payday lenders, pawn shops, title loan places, etc, etc THRIVE the last 10 years or so. People didn't expect it, or didn't PREPARE for it and it has affected credit ratings all across the board.

We should've followed the Joseph method. During the years of plenty, prepare for the years of famine to come.

Every entitlement within the government needs to be reexamined. Even as a libertarian, I believe some programs are necessary for the basic survival of some people, but the amount of abusers is enough to make one vomit. A large percent of the populace treats medicare and medicaid as if it is some get out of jail free card and the large amount of folks who default on their medical bills is what is driving medical care costs THROUGH THE ROOF.

Seriously made me laugh. I was talking to an elderly neck the other day. She was complaining about not getting a raise on her SS check (GIVE ME A BREAK!!!) and then yelled "OBAMA IS RUINING THIS COUNTRY!!!" Now I normally try to refrain from any political banter while on phone with clients, consumers, lawyers, etc but I just couldn't pass this one up and I calmly go "Ma'am, this nation hasn't had a good President since JFK." She didn't have much to say other than neckish drivel.

What I love is now the older crowd here in the South is getting on the Huckabee bandwagon. Here's why, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Fundamental Christian, white, Republican. These people truly don't want change. As long as it is a white man giving them "what they've earned all my life" it's okay, but to even remotely suggest that that would be taken away by, and you all know the word , is akin to slapping their mama.

When people say "we need to get back to how it used to be" what they are really saying is they want to suck from the white racist tit. The SS crowd stands just as much to lose if a guy like Ron Paul gets elected just as much as the welfare crowd does as well. Unfortunately, this is why he'll never win an election and it kills me to say that.

Damm....who is this "Catamount Man"? Well-played, Rich..

[Appaholic]

I think in the final analysis you are correct: Nothing can grow infinitely. But our system...the world's system and not just the United States...is based on the idea of a continually growing economy.

In any case, wealth is not a fixed quantity. There is no great pie of wealth dropped from heaven that is then distributed among the people. Wealth is created through the generation of goods and services. Money, nowadays, is just a medium of exchange.

The reality IS that the "middle" of the income distribution is better off now in terms of inflation adjusted value of its income than it was in the 1950s. I'm not going to look it up now but I recently did for another thread. And the reality IS that the top 1% (or whatever percent) controlling a greater percentage of the wealth now than it did X years ago does not mean that the other 99% of the people have less wealth than they did X years ago.

The whole deal with the "wealth inequality" thing is simply the politics of envy. That's all it is.

Yet here we are, in massive personal and national debt, seemingly unable to afford as much as we used to. If what you're saying is true, the only explanation is over-consumption. Unneccessarily going into debt over expensive cars, large homes, laptops, ipads, cable tv, ipods, internet, cell phones etc. Of course much of our economy is based on this consumption, so where would that leave us?

Your homework, if you so accept, is to find out the percentage of income the middle class was paying on healthcare, college tuition for their kids, and putting away for their retirement in the 50's or 60's versus today. And the loss our economy would have suffered had we consumed less.

Until then, I call bullshit on your envy meme.

Fair enough...but when performing the analysis, be sure to include life expectancy & where most spend their twilight years & end of days. We are living longer & healthier than people in the '50's & '60's did and those costs have to be included. There's a reason people spend more on healthcare as a percentage of personal salary....it's worth it. The people who don't invest in healthcare live to about the same age as people in the '50's & '60's. Just sayin'......

[BDKJMU]

Just always makes me laugh when I see a neck with a republican sticker on his 84 Caprice while living in the trailer park collecting food stamps.

Oh, so everyone in a trailer park is on food stamps?

[eagleskins]

Just always makes me laugh when I see a neck with a republican sticker on his 84 Caprice while living in the trailer park collecting food stamps.

Oh, so everyone in a trailer park is on food stamps?

Not my point at all. These kind of people run rampant in the south. Yet, they voted Republican for only one reason. Just brings a smile to my face.

[kalm]

Oh, so everyone in a trailer park is on food stamps?

Not my point at all. These kind of people run rampant in the south. Yet, they voted Republican for only one reason. Just brings a smile to my face.

So now your saying all trailer park denizens are Republican?

[catamount man]

Oh, so everyone in a trailer park is on food stamps?

Not my point at all. These kind of people run rampant in the south. Yet, they voted Republican for only one reason. Just brings a smile to my face.

and to be fair a lot of urban blacks voted democrat in '08 for one reason only. let's not kid ourselves. some for the very 1st time ever. Sad considering what happened in 1965.

[catamount man]

Where I honestly feel the middle class is suffering is in the amount of debt the average middle class family owes. When the economy boomed in the 90s, the middle class were living well and living beyond their means. It started catching them during the Bush recession, excuse me, the 1st Busch recession, in 2001 and a lot of them haven't recovered.

This is why you've seen payday lenders, pawn shops, title loan places, etc, etc THRIVE the last 10 years or so. People didn't expect it, or didn't PREPARE for it and it has affected credit ratings all across the board.

We should've followed the Joseph method. During the years of plenty, prepare for the years of famine to come.

Every entitlement within the government needs to be reexamined. Even as a libertarian, I believe some programs are necessary for the basic survival of some people, but the amount of abusers is enough to make one vomit. A large percent of the populace treats medicare and medicaid as if it is some get out of jail free card and the large amount of folks who default on their medical bills is what is driving medical care costs THROUGH THE ROOF.

Seriously made me laugh. I was talking to an elderly neck the other day. She was complaining about not getting a raise on her SS check (GIVE ME A BREAK!!!) and then yelled "OBAMA IS RUINING THIS COUNTRY!!!" Now I normally try to refrain from any political banter while on phone with clients, consumers, lawyers, etc but I just couldn't pass this one up and I calmly go "Ma'am, this nation hasn't had a good President since JFK." She didn't have much to say other than neckish drivel.

What I love is now the older crowd here in the South is getting on the Huckabee bandwagon. Here's why, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Fundamental Christian, white, Republican. These people truly don't want change. As long as it is a white man giving them "what they've earned all my life" it's okay, but to even remotely suggest that that would be taken away by, and you all know the word , is akin to slapping their mama.

When people say "we need to get back to how it used to be" what they are really saying is they want to suck from the white racist tit. The SS crowd stands just as much to lose if a guy like Ron Paul gets elected just as much as the welfare crowd does as well. Unfortunately, this is why he'll never win an election and it kills me to say that.

Damm....who is this "Catamount Man"? Well-played, Rich..

It's called 13 years of working with the public.