FargoBison wrote:Those schools are in the FCS and yes some of them are terrible but they are FCS nonetheless. Playing DI opponents should have more meaning when deciding who gets to be in the DI playoffs.
I think you're missing the point. They are FCS by name only. My argument is predicated on the fact that those schools do not offer scholarships, and by virtue of that fact, should not be classified as FCS. Wins against them should not count, period. Surely you must be able to see the competitive difference between scholarship and non-scholarship programs.
FargoBison wrote:Sorry that Big Sky can't figure out how to put together an all DI schedule. NDSU and SDSU haven't played a non-DI since 2006, if we can do it so can Big Sky schools.
We play an all Division I schedule in 2011, but congrats on that massive achievement. Always find it funny how fans of the Dakota's look down on Division II schools so much - especially considering you were D-II transitional something like 3 years ago.
FargoBison wrote:Those schools are in the FCS and yes some of them are terrible but they are FCS nonetheless. Playing DI opponents should have more meaning when deciding who gets to be in the DI playoffs.
I think you're missing the point. They are FCS by name only. My argument is predicated on the fact that those schools do not offer scholarships, and by virtue of that fact, should not be classified as FCS. Wins against them should not count, period. Surely you must be able to see the competitive difference between scholarship and non-scholarship programs.
FargoBison wrote:Sorry that Big Sky can't figure out how to put together an all DI schedule. NDSU and SDSU haven't played a non-DI since 2006, if we can do it so can Big Sky schools.
We play an all Division I schedule in 2011, but congrats on that massive achievement. Always find it funny how fans of the Dakota's look down on Division II schools so much - especially considering you were D-II transitional something like 3 years ago.
The Patriot League is non-scholarship, so is the Ivy League, should they be kicked out of the FCS as well? Just because a school offers a few more scholarships doesn't make them better than a school that doesn't(they can find ways to get talented players aid), most DII schools are way under the maximum anyway.
We are DI, so we play DI schools and take pride in doing so. If we wanted to play DII schools we would have stayed in DII.
Last edited by FargoBison on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
EWURanger wrote:
I think you're missing the point. They are FCS by name only. My argument is predicated on the fact that those schools do not offer scholarships, and by virtue of that fact, should not be classified as FCS. Wins against them should not count, period. Surely you must be able to see the competitive difference between scholarship and non-scholarship programs.
We play an all Division I schedule in 2011, but congrats on that massive achievement. Always find it funny how fans of the Dakota's look down on Division II schools so much - especially considering you were D-II transitional something like 3 years ago.
The Patriot League is non-scholarship, so is the Ivy League, should they be kicked out of the FCS as well? Just because a school offers a few more scholarships make them better than a school that doesn't(they can find ways to get talented players aid), most DII schools are way under the maximum anyway.
We are DI, so we play DI schools and take pride in doing so. If we wanted to play DII schools we would have stayed in DII.
So would you agree that FBS teams should not count FCS wins towards bowl qualifiers? And that they should play all-FBS schedules? Because the two situations seem extremely similar to me, and NDSU has benefited from playing up almost more than anyone.
FargoBison wrote:
The Patriot League is non-scholarship, so is the Ivy League, should they be kicked out of the FCS as well? Just because a school offers a few more scholarships make them better than a school that doesn't(they can find ways to get talented players aid), most DII schools are way under the maximum anyway.
We are DI, so we play DI schools and take pride in doing so. If we wanted to play DII schools we would have stayed in DII.
So you agree that FBS teams should not count FCS wins towards bowl qualifiers? And that they should play all-FBS schedules?
FargoBison wrote:The Patriot League is non-scholarship, so is the Ivy League, should they be kicked out of the FCS as well?
"Kicked out" are strong words, but IMO, non-scholarship programs should not be classified as FCS. So in the instances where that applies, then I guess the answer to your questions is yes.
FargoBison wrote:We are DI, so we play DI schools and take pride in doing so. If we wanted to play DII schools we would have stayed in DII.
So the brand name alone is more important to you than the quality of the opposition you are playing. Again, congrats.
Last edited by EWURanger on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FargoBison wrote:
FCS schools are DI, FBS schools are DI.
Not according to FBS fans
Plus the gap is wider between FBS and FCS than it is FCS and D2
Debatable, but on scholarships alone, there is a wider difference between a fully-funded FCS program and a Division II program than there is between FBS and FCS. 85 versus 63 compared to 63 and 30.
andy7171 wrote:Sh1t another cover blown. Good thing I don't work for the CIA.
In your defense, you gave yourself away the moment you pretended to be the second Towson fan on these boards. We all know there's only one guy who really roots for and confirms his connection to Towson.
Plus the gap is wider between FBS and FCS than it is FCS and D2
Debatable, but on scholarships alone, there is a wider difference between a fully-funded FCS program and a Division II program than their is between FBS and FCS. 85 versus 63 compared to 63 and 30.
Going by the numbers it would make sense that FBS and FCS are closer, but I'd say on-the-field it's another matter. The actual talent gap is widest from FBS to FCS (or even FBS to FBS mid-majors) than anywhere else.
Of course there's also the problem with how scattered the divisions/sub-divisions are. Only the minimum scholly-offering FCS schools (55 or something?) are playing up to FBS. We lose 95%+ of the FBS games, and the number would be higher if the Pioneer, NEC, and Ivies were playing up too. Whereas schools of all levels at FCS are playing down to a gigantic D2 field that is also wildly uneven.
Plus the gap is wider between FBS and FCS than it is FCS and D2
I don't care what FBS fans think, our schools are all in the same division and that changes things to an extent.
Like I said before and I don't think many people here realize this, but most DII schools don't offer 36 scholarships. Most aren't even close.
Which is exactly why it should not be a black-and-white case. Schools should be given credit for beating Grand Valley or Central Washington or North Alabama or whoever as opposed to a Fort Lewis or Western State or whoever the wretched D2 teams are.
Last edited by Silenoz on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EWURanger wrote:
Debatable, but on scholarships alone, there is a wider difference between a fully-funded FCS program and a Division II program than their is between FBS and FCS. 85 versus 63 compared to 63 and 30.
Going by the numbers it would make sense that FBS and FCS are closer, but I'd say on-the-field it's another matter. The actual talent gap is widest from FBS to FCS (or even FBS to FBS mid-majors) than anywhere else.
Of course there's also the problem with how scattered the divisions/sub-divisions are. Only the minimum scholly-offering FCS schools (55 or something?) are playing up to FBS. We lose 95%+ of the FBS games, and the number would be higher if the Pioneer, NEC, and Ivies were playing up too. Whereas schools of all levels at FCS are playing down to a gigantic D2 field that is also wildly uneven.
Fair one. I'd be willing to concede that there's a wider gap between BCS schools and FCS than there is between FCS and most Division II's. Non-BCS FBS schools and elite FCS, not so much.
For the record, I don't have a problem with Pac-12 fans thinking of Big Sky programs as cupcakes. They should beat us 90% of the time, although I do think the the competition will be a little stiffer than what most UW fans think it will be.
FargoBison wrote:
I don't care what FBS fans think, our schools are all in the same division and that changes things to an extent.
Like I said before and I don't think many people here realize this, but most DII schools don't offer 36 scholarships. Most aren't even close.
Which is exactly why it should not be a black-and-white case. Schools should be given credit for beating Grand Valley or Central Washington or North Alabama or whoever as opposed to a Fort Lewis or Western State or whoever the wretched D2 teams are.
So I guess beating DII champ Minnesota-Duluth shouldn't count, they do play in a conference that limits its members to 24 or 26 scholarships. Yes, most of their conference is wretched. A few of their conference mates struggle in offering 10 scholarships.
Last edited by FargoBison on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Silenoz wrote:
Going by the numbers it would make sense that FBS and FCS are closer, but I'd say on-the-field it's another matter. The actual talent gap is widest from FBS to FCS (or even FBS to FBS mid-majors) than anywhere else.
Of course there's also the problem with how scattered the divisions/sub-divisions are. Only the minimum scholly-offering FCS schools (55 or something?) are playing up to FBS. We lose 95%+ of the FBS games, and the number would be higher if the Pioneer, NEC, and Ivies were playing up too. Whereas schools of all levels at FCS are playing down to a gigantic D2 field that is also wildly uneven.
Fair one. I'd be willing to concede that there's a wider gap between BCS schools and FCS than there is between FCS and most Division II's. Non-BCS FBS schools and elite FCS, not so much.
For the record, I don't have a problem with Pac-12 fans thinking of Big Sky programs as cupcakes. They should beat us 90% of the time, although I do think the the competition will be a little stiffer than what most UW fans think it will be.
No argument there. I've always hoped there would be major re-organization so that the FBS majors were their own thing, with FBS mid-majors and FCS majors as a new D2, major D2 and mid-major FCS as D3, and then a non-schollie D4
Silenoz wrote:
Which is exactly why it should not be a black-and-white case. Schools should be given credit for beating Grand Valley or Central Washington or North Alabama or whoever as opposed to a Fort Lewis or Western State or whoever the wretched D2 teams are.
So I guess beating DII champ Minnesota-Duluth shouldn't count, they do play in a conference that limits its members to 24 or 26 scholarships.
No, they should be
Silenoz wrote:Take out stupid at-large win qualifications and judge solely by the games themselves. For instance, EWU beating CWU being worth nothing, while MSU beating Drake moves them one game closer to the playoffs, when it should be the opposite if anything.
EWURanger wrote:
Fair one. I'd be willing to concede that there's a wider gap between BCS schools and FCS than there is between FCS and most Division II's. Non-BCS FBS schools and elite FCS, not so much.
For the record, I don't have a problem with Pac-12 fans thinking of Big Sky programs as cupcakes. They should beat us 90% of the time, although I do think the the competition will be a little stiffer than what most UW fans think it will be.
No argument there. I've always hoped there would be major re-organization so that the FBS majors were their own thing, with FBS mid-majors and FCS majors as a new D2, major D2 and mid-major FCS as D3, and then a non-schollie D4
I can dream right
That idea might not be so far off-base if the BCS conferences continue to shut the mid-majors out of all the bowl money. And look what's happening with ESPN re-negotiating their deal with the WAC - there's going to be very little tv revenue in a lot of those conferences. I always felt like many mid-majors are more akin to the elite FCS programs than they are to the USC's and Florida's of the world.
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:BTW, bitching about D2's not counting seems pretty silly to me in comparison to the non scholly's. I watched Drake/MSU and Drake had a size advantage on CWU although I don't know if they were better. CWU is very good but the fact of the matter is that the rules are pretty god damn clear and bitching about them being followed because it doesn't benefit what you think just doesn't make a bit of fucking sense to me.
If you find a non scholly that's willing to travel then pay them for the privilege of the home game but quit acting like we're getting the screw job in the system. There are other choices out there that could be made even if they don't fit perfectly into what you want.
Just noticed this post, which I think is addressed to me
The rules are clear-cut, but that doesn't mean they're perfect, or that we can't debate them (this is a message board after all).
Last edited by Silenoz on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FargoBison wrote:
So I guess beating DII champ Minnesota-Duluth shouldn't count, they do play in a conference that limits its members to 24 or 26 scholarships.
No, they should be
Silenoz wrote:Take out stupid at-large win qualifications and judge solely by the games themselves. For instance, EWU beating CWU being worth nothing, while MSU beating Drake moves them one game closer to the playoffs, when it should be the opposite if anything.
Who is to say that UMD is better than Drake or San Diego? The schools don't play anything close to the same schedule, there would be little to base on as to which team is better. The committee is not in the business of watching and comparing DII vs the FCS.
That is why only DI games count and that is why it shouldn't change.
Who is to say that UMD is better than Drake or San Diego? The schools don't play anything close to the same schedule, there would be little to base on as to which team is better. The committee is not in the business of watching and comparing DII vs the FCS.
That is why only DI games count and that is why it shouldn't change.
Because at the end of the day when you're looking at getting 12 odd at-large teams from two dozen or so candidates, I don't see it as a massive endevour to take a look at 20 or so total play-down games as opposed to just tossing them out right at the start. Plus wouldn't it make much more sense to give yourself a better sample size when trying to determine how good a team is?
FargoBison wrote:
Who is to say that UMD is better than Drake or San Diego? The schools don't play anything close to the same schedule, there would be little to base on as to which team is better. The committee is not in the business of watching and comparing DII vs the FCS.
That is why only DI games count and that is why it shouldn't change.
Because at the end of the day when you're looking at getting 12 odd at-large teams from two dozen or so candidates, I don't see it as a massive endevour to take a look at 20 or so total play-down games as opposed to just tossing them out right at the start. Plus wouldn't it make much more sense to give yourself a better sample size when trying to determine how good a team is?
It would be a massive endeavor, the NSIC, MIAA and GLIAC all play just one non-conference game. It would be mess in trying to determine which games should be worth more than others and it would be a real mess in trying to compare DII schools with DI schools.
The committee wants the most accurate sample size, that is why they only count and encourage teams to play all-DI schedules.
