FCS Cupcake Feast

[UAalum72]

You do realize that a non-scholarship conference not only competes in the FCS playoffs but has won playoff games and even reached the FCS title game?

Once

And they got an epic ass kicking

And didn't the Patriot have schollies at that time?

No, the Patriot League was founded on the principle of not giving athletic scholarships. They do give need-based aid at a level usually guessed at being around 50-55 equivalencies.

Don't know if Lehigh gave scholarships when they were in the I-AA finals in 1979, before the founding of the league.

[Silenoz]

Once

And they got an epic ass kicking

And didn't the Patriot have schollies at that time?

No, the Patriot League was founded on the principle of not giving athletic scholarships. They do give need-based aid at a level usually guessed at being around 50-55 equivalencies.

Don't know if Lehigh gave scholarships when they were in the I-AA finals in 1979, before the founding of the league.

Just to be clear I don't advocate removing the non-schollies from the playoffs or the division or anything. Just that FCS is very uneven. So no angry PMs this time please (looking at you Dayton fans)

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

BTW, bitching about D2's not counting seems pretty silly to me in comparison to the non scholly's. I watched Drake/MSU and Drake had a size advantage on CWU although I don't know if they were better. CWU is very good but the fact of the matter is that the rules are pretty god damn clear and bitching about them being followed because it doesn't benefit what you think just doesn't make a bit of fucking sense to me.

If you find a non scholly that's willing to travel then pay them for the privilege of the home game but quit acting like we're getting the screw job in the system. There are other choices out there that could be made even if they don't fit perfectly into what you want.

Just noticed this post, which I think is addressed to me

The rules are clear-cut, but that doesn't mean they're perfect, or that we can't debate them (this is a message board after all).

No it's addressed to anybody talking about why some are getting screwed because they/we may play a tough D2 and some of the other schools get away with a weak FCS.

Where did I in any way say anything about you not discussing it?

I have yet to see an argument about how to do it that makes any sense as to qualify a D2 to be an eligible win. Since it really can't be judged if a D2 would be at a passable level until the end of the year or in any given year it's just palaver that goes on after the fact.

The argument that non scholly FCS should not be counted seems like your being fair with your D2 argument until you look at how few get the chance to compete in the playoffs (it is rare and should be base on resume) but there has been one or two that have not only held their own but made it to the pinnacle game. The fact that got beat in that game doesn't disqualify them in my view...who gives a fuck? We've got beaten in the chipper, doesn't mean that we didn't have the quality athletes to get by all the other teams we needed to in getting there. Same holds true for them.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

No, the Patriot League was founded on the principle of not giving athletic scholarships. They do give need-based aid at a level usually guessed at being around 50-55 equivalencies.

Don't know if Lehigh gave scholarships when they were in the I-AA finals in 1979, before the founding of the league.

Just to be clear I don't advocate removing the non-schollies from the playoffs or the division or anything. Just that FCS is very uneven. So no angry PMs this time please (looking at you Dayton fans)

FCS is very uneven inside of even most conferences so that is why I say I can't see adding even more subjectivity to all this. I won't angrily pm ya...this time.

[Silenoz]

I didn't say that non-schollies shouldn't count, they were used as an example as to how uneven the FCS playing field is. Between the mid-majors, the Pioneer, the Great West, the HBCUs, and the Ivies, and then the traditional "power" conferences there is already difficulty judging where teams are at. But they all count towards playoff eligibility. Writing off the D2's doesn't make any sense to me because they too are very uneven, and teams should be rewarded at least some degree for playing the better ones. As to how this would be done, like I said I think it would have to be done on a case-by-case basis by the committee. If the basketball tournament can pour through 350 odd teams playing 30+ games, I don't see how hard it could be to look at an extra 20 or so games in FCS.

I don't think the committee should simply throw them out, basically.


edit: dangit, I took too long to respond

[Thumper 76]

For the record, i resent SDSU being lumped into "the Dakotas" in this argument. Its all NDSU guys arguing in this, and saying SDSU doing all DI schedule isn't the same as saying that NDSU has since they have played the St. Francis's of the world while SDSU has had debatably the toughest schedules year in and out with always scheduling the Cal Poly's and Delewares for OCC games. Our easiest OCC game I remember recently is UND.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I didn't say that non-schollies shouldn't count, they were used as an example as to how uneven the FCS playing field is. Between the mid-majors, the Pioneer, the Great West, the HBCUs, and the Ivies, and then the traditional "power" conferences there is already difficulty judging where teams are at. But they all count towards playoff eligibility. Writing off the D2's doesn't make any sense to me because they too are very uneven, and teams should be rewarded at least some degree for playing the better ones. As to how this would be done, like I said I think it would have to be done on a case-by-case basis by the committee. If the basketball tournament can pour through 350 odd teams playing 30+ games, I don't see how hard it could be to look at an extra 20 or so games in FCS.

I don't think the committee should simply throw them out, basically.


edit: dangit, I took too long to respond

Happens to me all the time.

I'm pretty sure the NCAA puts a lot more money and people and effort into the NCAA basketball tourney than it can afford to do for the FCS playoffs. That being said there is only so much that they can do in a limited time and they do a pretty good job considering the volume of information already being perused.

You have to have the scope limited a litle with what we have here. That seems like a pretty fair and fairly insignificant limitation on what counts and what does not count. Especially since everyone knows going in that this will count and that will not count.

Is it completely fair? No, of course not cuz it's like everything else in life. It is the best solution at this time that we seem to have though.

Seriously, you've seen the discussions back and forth based on teams WE KNOW should count and their validity toward the stated goal. Can you imagine the minutia you would be getting into comparing if a 4 point win over Drake was better than a 7 point win over CWU and if one or the other should or should not count?

That would be a little too much like sifting through a rock pile for a flake of gold for my taste.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

For the record, i resent SDSU being lumped into "the Dakotas" in this argument. Its all NDSU guys arguing in this, and saying SDSU doing all DI schedule isn't the same as saying that NDSU has since they have played the St. Francis's of the world while SDSU has had debatably the toughest schedules year in and out with always scheduling the Cal Poly's and Delewares for OCC games. Our easiest OCC game I remember recently is UND.

I never consider SDSU as any part of what the NDSU guys are putting across FWIW. There is a clear division between those two schools and the talking points of some in the fan base.

[JBB]

If Central Warshington is so good show me their titles. EWU is starting to sound like UND after their loss to an NAIA team: They could beat a lot of FCS teams. Yea, right. They cant beat any FCS teams except UND and Central Warshington came up short against EWU. Was billy fette in the booth that afternoon?

Ticket prices often reflect fans' regard for the games, sometimes costing less than half the admission for a marquee matchup.

Maybe this gal should take a look at the NDSU @ Gopher prices right now: $300 is not uncommon. I paid $68 on the 50, 2nd deck. Those seats are now up in price and rare. The $32 seats seem to be gone. $200 is the going rate on the street outside Target Field.

But hey, she is right 80% of the time.

[Silenoz]

If Central Warshington is so good show me their titles. EWU is starting to sound like UND after their loss to an NAIA team: They could beat a lot of FCS teams. Yea, right. They cant beat any FCS teams except UND and Central Warshington came up short against EWU. Was billy fette in the booth that afternoon?

Ticket prices often reflect fans' regard for the games, sometimes costing less than half the admission for a marquee matchup.

Maybe this gal should take a look at the NDSU @ Gopher prices right now: $300 is not uncommon. I paid $68 on the 50, 2nd deck. Those seats are now up in price and rare. The $32 seats seem to be gone. $200 is the going rate on the street outside Target Field.

But hey, she is right 80% of the time.

2010 - Eastern Washington 32-35 L
2009 - Idaho State 33-22 W
2008 - Montana 35-38 L
2005 - Eastern Washington 21-14 W
2004 - Eastern Washington 8-39 L
2003 - Eastern Washington 29-48 L
2002 - Montana State 31-16 W

3-4 against power conference teams this decade. 3 of the 4 losses were to playoff teams. 2 of those being last second losses to #1 EWU and #2 UM

By the way, NDSU's last title was in like 1990. If the Bison are so good... blah blah blah



And yeah, I realize I'm starting to come off as some sort of CWU apologist or something. But they've earned it imo

[dbackjon]

Yeah, NDSU's last championship came in 1990. They started winning DII championships after all the good teams moved to I-AA in 79-81.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

By the way, NDSU's last title was in like 1990. If the Bison are so good... blah blah blah



And yeah, I realize I'm starting to come off as some sort of CWU apologist or something. But they've earned it imo

CWU is a good bunch of Salty Dogs so I don't see you coming off as an apologist but just another guy kicking the dog fuck out of JBB when he starts barking.

I can't remember the stats but did CWU let Taiwan roll up close to 300 yds. in the first 5 minutes of the game?

Even if they did it still looks CWU played EWU tougher anyway. I think NDSU is a good team so I'll go ahead and think CWU is as well I guess.

[clenz]

I'll also wager that Montana fans' predictions against Western Oregon will be similar to the predictions Vols fans have made for their game against the Griz

I see it all the time from FCS and mid-major basketball programs.


Before a BCS game:
"BULLSHIT! THEY THINK THEY WILL CRUSH US! THEY ARE MORANS!"

Before a D2/low major game
"WE SHOULD WIN BY 40! THEY SUCK AND ARE OF LOWER DIVISION STATUS!"

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I'll also wager that Montana fans' predictions against Western Oregon will be similar to the predictions Vols fans have made for their game against the Griz

I see it all the time from FCS and mid-major basketball programs.


Before a BCS game:
"BULLSHIT! THEY THINK THEY WILL CRUSH US! THEY ARE MORANS!"

Before a D2/low major game
"WE SHOULD WIN BY 40! THEY SUCK AND ARE OF LOWER DIVISION STATUS!"

I meant to compliment Sil earlier on that foresight as well. People bitch about not getting the respect the deserve all the time while not giving any. Just part of the Human Condition I guess.

[CoachL]

I meant to compliment Sil earlier on that foresight as well. People bitch about not getting the respect the deserve all the time while not giving any. Just part of the Human Condition I guess.

Being labled a "cupcake" (no matter how accurate or inaccurate the description may be) doesn't feel too good, does it?

Refer to: The Golden Rule

[FargoBison]

JBB maybe you should hang out in some shallower waters for a while, CWU is a decent program. Worthy of some respect here, they aren't Grand Valley State but they have proven to be respectable.

I don't know where the NDSU guys comment came from earlier. I think other people agree with me that non-DI games shouldn't count towards the playoffs because it is a mess that the committee shouldn't have to deal with and really it isn't in the best interest of the FCS as whole. In a perfect world there would be more teams out west, that said I do think teams out west need to do a better job of scheduling each other which is why I'm glad to see Montana reaching out and playing McNeese, App State and NDSU. Montana State is also coming to Fargo and Cal Poly is going to SDSU. Hopefully this will be a growing trend.

My major issue with DII is that it is so regional, some teams play just one non-conference game and then the playoffs are completely regional and fans suffer because they rarely get to see what the rest of the division has to offer. While people can talk down programs like St. Francis, Wagner, Morgan State and Central Connecticut I was happy to see them in Fargo playing against NDSU. I'd rather play them than some regional DII team, those FCS teams stepping and playing other power conference FCS schools will only result in a stronger subdivision. I'm glad the committee emphasizes playing an all DI schedule which gives those schools more opportunities.

Counting DII opponents towards the playoffs will only make the FCS more regional and in my opinion that would just make the subdivision weaker in the long run.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

By the way, NDSU's last title was in like 1990. If the Bison are so good... blah blah blah



And yeah, I realize I'm starting to come off as some sort of CWU apologist or something. But they've earned it imo

CWU is a good bunch of Salty Dogs so I don't see you coming off as an apologist but just another guy kicking the dog fuck out of JBB when he starts barking.

I can't remember the stats but did CWU let Taiwan roll up close to 300 yds. in the first 5 minutes of the game?

Even if they did it still looks CWU played EWU tougher anyway. I think NDSU is a good team so I'll go ahead and think CWU is as well I guess.

They didn't shut him down, but they didn't roll over for him either.

TJ vs. CWU: 14 carries, 89 yards, 2 TDs, 6.3 avg.
TJ vs. NDSU: 20 carries, 230 yards, 1 TD, 11.5 avg.

Both games he sat out most of the 4th quarter due to injury.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

CWU is a good bunch of Salty Dogs so I don't see you coming off as an apologist but just another guy kicking the dog fuck out of JBB when he starts barking.

I can't remember the stats but did CWU let Taiwan roll up close to 300 yds. in the first 5 minutes of the game?

Even if they did it still looks CWU played EWU tougher anyway. I think NDSU is a good team so I'll go ahead and think CWU is as well I guess.

They didn't shut him down, but they didn't roll over for him either.

TJ vs. CWU: 14 carries, 89 yards, 2 TDs, 6.3 avg.
TJ vs. NDSU: 20 carries, 230 yards, 1 TD, 11.5 avg.

Both games he sat out most of the 4th quarter due to injury.

Holy shit. Other than that stat line the similarities are unfuckingcanny.

NDSU's defense gained way more yards than the CWU did though.

[William Fette]

If Central Warshington is so good show me their titles. EWU is starting to sound like UND after their loss to an NAIA team: They could beat a lot of FCS teams. Yea, right. They cant beat any FCS teams except UND and Central Warshington came up short against EWU. Was billy fette in the booth that afternoon?

I was just up the road working the UW-Syracuse game. Mabye after a couple more years at this level you'll start picking up on nuances like instant replay only being used in the playoffs.

NDSU reminded me of CWU quite a bit. Minus a passing game and the ability to contain Taiwan Jones.

[JBB]

Plus we forgot to assign a lawyer to go man coverage on bill fette!

The only team from North Dakota that Central Warshington has defeated is UND. I think they took them down 4 or 5 yrs ago by a score of 42-14. It was a route. So the BSC has a history with Central Warshington as a competitive club capable of dominating the BSC member. That really doesnt project beyond the BSC however.

While the BSC is worrying about the likes of Minot State, Central Washington, Fort lewis et al, NDSU is busy worrying about the Minnesota Gophers and the Kansas Jayhawks, often winning those contests against Charter Members of the nations premier athletic conferences.

Thats a fact the writer of this article carefully leaves out, but she did admit that the FCS/FBS match-ups are lopsided wins for the FBS 80% of the time. That is a back hand compliment to programs like NDSU and App State.

The FCS/D2/NAIA match-ups don't even count in either division and should be listed as exhibition games as they are in Basketball.

There is nothing wrong with the games. They can be interesting and fun. Take for example the defeat of UND by the NAIA school University of Sioux Falls a couple years ago. What Fun!!!

But really, to put these things on the schedule and count them as wins or losses on the FCS record book is a little ridiculous especially when they arent considered as counters for FCS playoff purposes.

[bluehenbillk]

Speaking of cupcakes, can Delaware get any more Missouri Valley teams to Newark???

[EWURanger]

While the BSC is worrying about the likes of Minot State, Central Washington, Fort lewis et al.

And competing in, and winning, National Championship games. Something NDSU has yet to do at this level.

[EWURanger]

Speaking of cupcakes, can Delaware get any more Missouri Valley teams to Newark???

Ouch.

[EWURanger]

But really, to put these things on the schedule and count them as wins or losses on the FCS record book is a little ridiculous especially when they arent considered as counters for FCS playoff purposes.

While we're on the issue of scheduling - I was wondering why NDSU folks are being so sensitive about the whole east coast limited/non-schollie cupcake scheduling. Then I looked at your schedule. You have no room to be critical of anyone about playing Division II schools when you open up the season with Lafayette and St. Francis.

[EWURanger]

NDSU are kickass cupcakes!!! U-minn, Kansas, Ball st, Central Mich.....sprinkles anyone??