over/under on next terrorist attack on U.S. soil

[AZGrizFan]

No, but we did have troops in the land of the Mecca.

Well, when we start letting terrorists dictate our foreign policy, I want out.

[Wedgebuster]

Well, I think t

No, but we did have troops in the land of the Mecca.

Well, when we start letting terrorists dictate our foreign policy, I want out.

It has already happened, and you are apparently still here.

[ASUMountaineer]

How would you feel if Russia put a standing army in the US, or in Mexico or Canada? Would that piss you off? I know it would piss me off. You should start supporting alternative sources of energy, then we would have no reason to be in the Middle East, and they'd have no power/ money.

Honestly, why are American troops in 130 countries? Why are we policing the world, why do we feel we have a right to do so? Give me a break Tom, you know that the Middle East was only our friend during the Cold War because the SU was a bigger threat to them. As soon as the SU ended, they turned their eyes on America which still had troops in the Middle East, presumably for our own interests, not theirs. See, that is the problem. I don't believe they are attacking us because we're "Christian" when they're attacking Muslims everywhere (especially considering America isn't exactly a "Christian nation"). Think outside of the box.

By the way, I don't blame Bush solely for 9/11, I also don't blame him solely for the resentment the Islamic world (and other countries) has for us. Our foreign policy has been wrong for a long time, and until we quit acting like we have an empire to police, we will continue to have this discussion.

Did we have troops in Afghanistan or Iraq when 9/11 happened? Didn't think so.

Which begs the question, why do we have troops in Iraq now? Empire? As Wedgie said below. We did in Mecca, which is the problem.

[ASUMountaineer]

No, but we did have troops in the land of the Mecca.

Well, when we start letting terrorists dictate our foreign policy, I want out.

Well, Alec Baldwin, how is it you military people say it? We wouldn't be letting the terrorists dictate our foreign policy, we would be letting our foreign policy be dictated by the "conditions on the ground."

We already have. You seem to support a military presence in Saudi Arabia, why do you think we're there? To protect the royal family (a monarchy, so much for spreading democracy), so that we can keep them in power to get cheap oil, because we wouldn't want the "terrorists" to overtake the royal family.

Do you really think the terrorists in Palestine have had nothing to do with our foreign policy? Not to mention the ones who attacked us on 9/11, isn't "responding to their attack" the reason for the "War on Terror?" I'd say that pretty much is a direct result of terrorists dictating our foreign policy.

[Wedgebuster]

Much more shocking than terrorists dictating our foreign policy, is that they also dictated our domestic policy.

They celebrated that as a sure sign of the success of their stunts.

[AZGrizFan]

Well, when we start letting terrorists dictate our foreign policy, I want out.

Well, Alec Baldwin, how is it you military people say it? We wouldn't be letting the terrorists dictate our foreign policy, we would be letting our foreign policy be dictated by the "conditions on the ground."

We already have. You seem to support a military presence in Saudi Arabia, why do you think we're there? To protect the royal family (a monarchy, so much for spreading democracy), so that we can keep them in power to get cheap oil, because we wouldn't want the "terrorists" to overtake the royal family.

Do you really think the terrorists in Palestine have had nothing to do with our foreign policy? Not to mention the ones who attacked us on 9/11, isn't "responding to their attack" the reason for the "War on Terror?" I'd say that pretty much is a direct result of terrorists dictating our foreign policy.

Where on EARTH do you get that I support a military presence in SA? All I said was that our CURRENT presence in SA (and now Iraq and Afghanistan) are NOT the reason these people hate us. They've hated us for centuries....LONG before the discovery of oil and the uses for it.

But, like it or not, we DO have national interests to protect. THAT is our foreign policy. Those national interests (because of our love affair with oil) lie squarely in the land of Mecca. Tough shit. Until we get off the oil teet, we'll have a presence in the Middle East. But that does NOT mean we just "turn the other cheek" when they go off and do something like 9/11 because we don't want to give the appearance that they're "dictating our foreign policy".

[ASUMountaineer]

Well, Alec Baldwin, how is it you military people say it? We wouldn't be letting the terrorists dictate our foreign policy, we would be letting our foreign policy be dictated by the "conditions on the ground."

We already have. You seem to support a military presence in Saudi Arabia, why do you think we're there? To protect the royal family (a monarchy, so much for spreading democracy), so that we can keep them in power to get cheap oil, because we wouldn't want the "terrorists" to overtake the royal family.

Do you really think the terrorists in Palestine have had nothing to do with our foreign policy? Not to mention the ones who attacked us on 9/11, isn't "responding to their attack" the reason for the "War on Terror?" I'd say that pretty much is a direct result of terrorists dictating our foreign policy.

Where on EARTH do you get that I support a military presence in SA? All I said was that our CURRENT presence in SA (and now Iraq and Afghanistan) are NOT the reason these people hate us. They've hated us for centuries....LONG before the discovery of oil and the uses for it.

But, like it or not, we DO have national interests to protect. THAT is our foreign policy. Those national interests (because of our love affair with oil) lie squarely in the land of Mecca. Tough shit. Until we get off the oil teet, we'll have a presence in the Middle East. But that does NOT mean we just "turn the other cheek" when they go off and do something like 9/11 because we don't want to give the appearance that they're "dictating our foreign policy".

It's not an appearance, they do dictate our foreign policy. Please, people in Iraq did not even know America existed in 1776 or probably 1850. If they did, I doubt they had any idea that they would terrorize our people because they're Christian, they could care less...we weren't in their countries with a military presence helping hold up a government.

If we go into their country, we should expect them to be suspicious, especially with a military presence. I don't buy that argument, "they've hated us for centuries." That's a load of crap, they had no way to do anything until oil, don't buy that argument, never will. Hey, if you're up for continuing to police the world and build an empire, you had better continuing to expect terrorists attacks. That's just a fact. The world is going down hill quickly, and we're not doing much to stop it. That is a national interest.

[AZGrizFan]

It's not an appearance, they do dictate our foreign policy. Please, people in Iraq did not even know America existed in 1776 or probably 1850. If they did, I doubt they had any idea that they would terrorize our people because they're Christian, they could care less...we weren't in their countries with a military presence helping hold up a government.

If we go into their country, we should expect them to be suspicious, especially with a military presence. I don't buy that argument, "they've hated us for centuries." That's a load of crap, they had no way to do anything until oil, don't buy that argument, never will. Hey, if you're up for continuing to police the world and build an empire, you had better continuing to expect terrorists attacks. That's just a fact. The world is going down hill quickly, and we're not doing much to stop it. That is a national interest.

Read a history book. Then we'll talk.

[ASUMountaineer]

It's not an appearance, they do dictate our foreign policy. Please, people in Iraq did not even know America existed in 1776 or probably 1850. If they did, I doubt they had any idea that they would terrorize our people because they're Christian, they could care less...we weren't in their countries with a military presence helping hold up a government.

If we go into their country, we should expect them to be suspicious, especially with a military presence. I don't buy that argument, "they've hated us for centuries." That's a load of crap, they had no way to do anything until oil, don't buy that argument, never will. Hey, if you're up for continuing to police the world and build an empire, you had better continuing to expect terrorists attacks. That's just a fact. The world is going down hill quickly, and we're not doing much to stop it. That is a national interest.

Read a history book. Then we'll talk.

I have. What do you mean by "us" then? Do you mean the United States or Christians? Big difference. What Islamic terrorists was railing against the US and holy war against the US during our Civil War? What history book tells that?

[AZGrizFan]

Read a history book. Then we'll talk.

I have. What do you mean by "us" then? Do you mean the United States or Christians? Big difference. What Islamic terrorists was railing against the US and holy war against the US during our Civil War? What history book tells that?

Oh. Sorry. Us is Christians. Thought I made that clear early on. Obviously they haven't hated AMERICA for 700 years....

[ASUMountaineer]

I have. What do you mean by "us" then? Do you mean the United States or Christians? Big difference. What Islamic terrorists was railing against the US and holy war against the US during our Civil War? What history book tells that?

Oh. Sorry. Us is Christians. Thought I made that clear early on. Obviously they haven't hated AMERICA for 700 years....

Right, we were talking about two separate things. I was discussing America instead of Christians. They've hated us, except when we joined together to hate on the Jews. Speaking of, therein lies a whole other problem.

[AZGrizFan]

If we quit putting standing armies in these countries, they won't be so pissed at us. Please, can we take a poll...who really believes Osama gives two sh!ts about whether or not the people of the US have freedom (our women don't cover their heads, they can vote, Islam is not the national religion)? If anyone is brave enough to say they think that's why 9/11 happened and they didn't serve in the Bush administration, wow are you naive.

Honestly, Mountaineer, if you truly believe that just removing our armies would make everything all better, you're living in la-la land. You guys make it sound like Bush INVENTED these policies. He carried on a policy that has been in place for over 150 years. And the hatred from people like Bin Laden doesn't come from current (or past policies). It comes from over 700 years of Muslims hating Christians. The current policies are just a nice, convenient excuse for them to carry out their agenda. Just like oil is a nice convenient excuse for us to carry out our agenda.

I realize you gave D1B a hardon with your post, but it's WAY off base, and he knows it.

Mountie---here was my original post on the subject. Clearly I'm talking about Christian hate and not US hate.

[ASUMountaineer]

Honestly, Mountaineer, if you truly believe that just removing our armies would make everything all better, you're living in la-la land. You guys make it sound like Bush INVENTED these policies. He carried on a policy that has been in place for over 150 years. And the hatred from people like Bin Laden doesn't come from current (or past policies). It comes from over 700 years of Muslims hating Christians. The current policies are just a nice, convenient excuse for them to carry out their agenda. Just like oil is a nice convenient excuse for us to carry out our agenda.

I realize you gave D1B a hardon with your post, but it's WAY off base, and he knows it.

Mountie---here was my original post on the subject. Clearly I'm talking about Christian hate and not US hate.

Ok, but why do they view the US as a bunch of Christians? Is it because we're not an Islamic state? Why do they bomb in India and Pakistan, but not Australia? I think a lot, if not most of it has to do with our current foreign policies--not the religion practiced by the majority of US citizens.

[AZGrizFan]

Mountie---here was my original post on the subject. Clearly I'm talking about Christian hate and not US hate.

Ok, but why do they view the US as a bunch of Christians? Is it because we're not an Islamic state? Why do they bomb in India and Pakistan, but not Australia? I think a lot, if not most of it has to do with our current foreign policies--not the religion practiced by the majority of US citizens.

We represent the ultimate in hedonism to them. Period. Capitalism is BAD.

[ASUMountaineer]

Ok, but why do they view the US as a bunch of Christians? Is it because we're not an Islamic state? Why do they bomb in India and Pakistan, but not Australia? I think a lot, if not most of it has to do with our current foreign policies--not the religion practiced by the majority of US citizens.

We represent the ultimate in hedonism to them. Period. Capitalism is BAD.

I'm sorry, I don't buy that argument that they hate our freedom. Again, why are they not attacking Australia, or other "Christian, Capitalist nations?" I honestly think Osama could care less about Islam, that's just a vehicle for his main objective.

[UNI88]

I have. What do you mean by "us" then? Do you mean the United States or Christians? Big difference. What Islamic terrorists was railing against the US and holy war against the US during our Civil War? What history book tells that?

It wasn't a holy war but the US had it's first run-in with Islamic nations almost right after independence. The pirates of the Barbary nations would prey upon the shipping of nations they thought were too weak to defend themselves if those nations didn't pay a ransom. The US paid the ransom until Jefferson was POTUS when we went to war with them and won ("to the shores of Tripoli").

As for the Islamofacists hatred for America, it would take a T-Manesque diatribe to begin to cover all of the reasons behind it but in a nutshell our troops on the ground in muslim nations, our support of Israel, our position as the perceived leader of western nations all contribute. At it's core, a fundamentalist islamic nation rejects democracy, liberty, freedom, change, advancement, technology, etc. and these are things that the US to a greater or lesser degree represents and promotes. When a fundamentalist government is unable to better the lives of its people it typically looks for somewhere to place the blame and we're a convenient scapegoat.

[ASUMountaineer]

I have. What do you mean by "us" then? Do you mean the United States or Christians? Big difference. What Islamic terrorists was railing against the US and holy war against the US during our Civil War? What history book tells that?

It wasn't a holy war but the US had it's first run-in with Islamic nations almost right after independence. The pirates of the Barbary nations would prey upon the shipping of nations they thought were too weak to defend themselves if those nations didn't pay a ransom. The US paid the ransom until Jefferson was POTUS when we went to war with them and won ("to the shores of Tripoli").

As for the Islamofacists hatred for America, it would take a T-Manesque diatribe to begin to cover all of the reasons behind it but in a nutshell our troops on the ground in muslim nations, our support of Israel, our position as the perceived leader of western nations all contribute. At it's core, a fundamentalist islamic nation rejects democracy, liberty, freedom, change, advancement, technology, etc. and these are things that the US to a greater or lesser degree represents and promotes. When a fundamentalist government is unable to better the lives of its people it typically looks for somewhere to place the blame and we're a convenient scapegoat.

But, fundalmentalist governments is not what we're discussing here, it's terrorists, who are a part of no nation. I mean, again, why did Osama bin Laden attack us? Do you really believe it's our freedom (what's left of it--PATRIOT Act, yeah terrorists don't dictate our policies ), change, etc? Or, do you think (as you mentioned) it's our military presence--and of course Israel which we haven't even gotten into (really, except for my little mention of the Jews).

Again, I don't think Osama cares about Islam or our freedom. I think he cares about our presence in the Middle East...a sort of NIMBY attitude gone crazy. I can only imagine how I would feel if we had a natural resource and China brought in a military presense to "protect their national interests."

[Wedgebuster]

[UNI88]

It wasn't a holy war but the US had it's first run-in with Islamic nations almost right after independence. The pirates of the Barbary nations would prey upon the shipping of nations they thought were too weak to defend themselves if those nations didn't pay a ransom. The US paid the ransom until Jefferson was POTUS when we went to war with them and won ("to the shores of Tripoli").

As for the Islamofacists hatred for America, it would take a T-Manesque diatribe to begin to cover all of the reasons behind it but in a nutshell our troops on the ground in muslim nations, our support of Israel, our position as the perceived leader of western nations all contribute. At it's core, a fundamentalist islamic nation rejects democracy, liberty, freedom, change, advancement, technology, etc. and these are things that the US to a greater or lesser degree represents and promotes. When a fundamentalist government is unable to better the lives of its people it typically looks for somewhere to place the blame and we're a convenient scapegoat.

But, fundalmentalist governments is not what we're discussing here, it's terrorists, who are a part of no nation. I mean, again, why did Osama bin Laden attack us? Do you really believe it's our freedom (what's left of it--PATRIOT Act, yeah terrorists don't dictate our policies ), change, etc? Or, do you think (as you mentioned) it's our military presence--and of course Israel which we haven't even gotten into (really, except for my little mention of the Jews).

Again, I don't think Osama cares about Islam or our freedom. I think he cares about our presence in the Middle East...a sort of NIMBY attitude gone crazy. I can only imagine how I would feel if we had a natural resource and China brought in a military presense to "protect their national interests."

Today's terrorists might not be an official part of any nation but there are connections: Hezbollah and Hamas - Iran, Al Qaeda - Saudi Arabia (is Saudi funding of schools around the world to promote Wahabist Islam contributing to terrorism?). Weren't the pirates really nothing more than state-sanctioned terrorists as well?

Our presence in the Middle East is an important factor in the fundamentalists hatred but it isn't the only factor. Islam has a history of promoting violence to advance the faith, kill or convert non-believers, etc. We could pull out of the Middle East tomorrow and the hatred would continue because the hard-liners would need to blame the retched conditions that the majority are living under on someone else and we are the most convenient scapegoat. In fact, our pulling out would likely indicate that those conditions were about to get worse because it would mean that we didn't need their oil any more and their income was about to dry up.

I'm all for developing reliable sources of alternative energy because that will mean (among other benefits) that we will no longer be indirectly funding the people who are trying to bring about our own downfall. It will also put the US in a position that we can walk away from the Middle East and eventually/hopefully the people will realize that the leadership is to blame for the condition of their country.

[ASUMountaineer]

But, fundalmentalist governments is not what we're discussing here, it's terrorists, who are a part of no nation. I mean, again, why did Osama bin Laden attack us? Do you really believe it's our freedom (what's left of it--PATRIOT Act, yeah terrorists don't dictate our policies ), change, etc? Or, do you think (as you mentioned) it's our military presence--and of course Israel which we haven't even gotten into (really, except for my little mention of the Jews).

Again, I don't think Osama cares about Islam or our freedom. I think he cares about our presence in the Middle East...a sort of NIMBY attitude gone crazy. I can only imagine how I would feel if we had a natural resource and China brought in a military presense to "protect their national interests."

Today's terrorists might not be an official part of any nation but there are connections: Hezbollah and Hamas - Iran, Al Qaeda - Saudi Arabia (is Saudi funding of schools around the world to promote Wahabist Islam contributing to terrorism?). Weren't the pirates really nothing more than state-sanctioned terrorists as well?

Our presence in the Middle East is an important factor in the fundamentalists hatred but it isn't the only factor. Islam has a history of promoting violence to advance the faith, kill or convert non-believers, etc. We could pull out of the Middle East tomorrow and the hatred would continue because the hard-liners would need to blame the retched conditions that the majority are living under on someone else and we are the most convenient scapegoat. In fact, our pulling out would likely indicate that those conditions were about to get worse because it would mean that we didn't need their oil any more and their income was about to dry up.

I'm all for developing reliable sources of alternative energy because that will mean (among other benefits) that we will no longer be indirectly funding the people who are trying to bring about our own downfall. It will also put the US in a position that we can walk away from the Middle East and eventually/hopefully the people will realize that the leadership is to blame for the condition of their country.

If the Saudi government is involved with terrorists groups, why was our president walking around holding their hands? Why haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia? Why haven't we invade Palestine? I don't buy it, I think we invaded Iraq for the exact reasons Osama has said he hates us, American Imperialism.

Yes, you can say those pirates we state sponsored, but they were going after people in their region, not coming to America to "terrorize" us. Bad example.

Sorry, not buying, "we're 'free', so they hate us." Again, are you saying Osama hates us because we have "freedom" and because a majority of Americans are Christian?

[UNI88]

If the Saudi government is involved with terrorists groups, why was our president walking around holding their hands? Why haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia? Why haven't we invade Palestine? I don't buy it, I think we invaded Iraq for the exact reasons Osama has said he hates us, American Imperialism.

Because we're addicted to oil and the Saudi state isn't sponsoring terrorism but individuals within the state are supporting it.

Sorry, not buying, "we're 'free', so they hate us." Again, are you saying Osama hates us because we have "freedom" and because a majority of Americans are Christian?

I don't think I'm trying to sell the "we're 'free', so they hate us" idea, I'm saying that it is a lot more complicated than they hate us simply because we've violated their turf.

[Wedgebuster]

Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" 1996


http://www.mideastweb.org/osamabinladen1.htm

There it is guys, in Bin Laden's own words.

[AZGrizFan]

It wasn't a holy war but the US had it's first run-in with Islamic nations almost right after independence. The pirates of the Barbary nations would prey upon the shipping of nations they thought were too weak to defend themselves if those nations didn't pay a ransom. The US paid the ransom until Jefferson was POTUS when we went to war with them and won ("to the shores of Tripoli").

As for the Islamofacists hatred for America, it would take a T-Manesque diatribe to begin to cover all of the reasons behind it but in a nutshell our troops on the ground in muslim nations, our support of Israel, our position as the perceived leader of western nations all contribute. At it's core, a fundamentalist islamic nation rejects democracy, liberty, freedom, change, advancement, technology, etc. and these are things that the US to a greater or lesser degree represents and promotes. When a fundamentalist government is unable to better the lives of its people it typically looks for somewhere to place the blame and we're a convenient scapegoat.

But, fundalmentalist governments is not what we're discussing here, it's terrorists, who are a part of no nation. I mean, again, why did Osama bin Laden attack us? Do you really believe it's our freedom (what's left of it--PATRIOT Act, yeah terrorists don't dictate our policies ), change, etc? Or, do you think (as you mentioned) it's our military presence--and of course Israel which we haven't even gotten into (really, except for my little mention of the Jews).

Again, I don't think Osama cares about Islam or our freedom. I think he cares about our presence in the Middle East...a sort of NIMBY attitude gone crazy. I can only imagine how I would feel if we had a natural resource and China brought in a military presense to "protect their national interests."

Interesting choice, Mountie. If our government ASKED us to come in, how would you feel? We aren't in any country (except Iraq & Afghanistan) in the Middle East except by agreement. We're not there under force. Osama is NOT the government, and the fact that he dislikes his government's business partners doesn't give him the right to attack and kill innocent civilians from that business partner.

[ASUMountaineer]

But, fundalmentalist governments is not what we're discussing here, it's terrorists, who are a part of no nation. I mean, again, why did Osama bin Laden attack us? Do you really believe it's our freedom (what's left of it--PATRIOT Act, yeah terrorists don't dictate our policies ), change, etc? Or, do you think (as you mentioned) it's our military presence--and of course Israel which we haven't even gotten into (really, except for my little mention of the Jews).

Again, I don't think Osama cares about Islam or our freedom. I think he cares about our presence in the Middle East...a sort of NIMBY attitude gone crazy. I can only imagine how I would feel if we had a natural resource and China brought in a military presense to "protect their national interests."

Interesting choice, Mountie. If our government ASKED us to come in, how would you feel? We aren't in any country (except Iraq & Afghanistan) in the Middle East except by agreement. We're not there under force. Osama is NOT the government, and the fact that he dislikes his government's business partners doesn't give him the right to attack and kill innocent civilians from that business partner.

I never said he had the right to kill innocent civilians, but I can understand why he is pissed at us. Now, you don't see me running around wanting to bomb other countries (like Bush and Citdog). Everyone pretty much agrees we have a right to be in Afghanistan. However, I don't think we had the right to go into Iraq. The problem, and hypocrisy, is that we invaded Iraq because of WMDs...errr...to liberate Iraqis...errr...to spread Democracy (which is a joke, we don't have a Democracy). Based on our last reason for invading Iraq, we're not living up to that standard by supporting the Saudi monarch, or the Jordanian monarch, or by denying the Palestinians demands of freedom (granted they want their freedom and to annihilate the Jews). We have been picking and choosing where we think "Democracy" should be and then use military force to make people "choose" Democracy. It's a laughable concept, and hasn't worked so well so far.

What I don't understand is how you seem like a smart guy, but can't see that Osama doesn't hate us because we're free and Christian. Using Islam is just a vehicle for him, it's about his belief that his people should rule that region of the world and we have no claim there. I can understand that argument, just not his actions to achieve it.

[ASUMountaineer]

If the Saudi government is involved with terrorists groups, why was our president walking around holding their hands? Why haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia? Why haven't we invade Palestine? I don't buy it, I think we invaded Iraq for the exact reasons Osama has said he hates us, American Imperialism.

Because we're addicted to oil and the Saudi state isn't sponsoring terrorism but individuals within the state are supporting it.

Right, but we have to "spread Democracy!"

Sorry, not buying, "we're 'free', so they hate us." Again, are you saying Osama hates us because we have "freedom" and because a majority of Americans are Christian?

I don't think I'm trying to sell the "we're 'free', so they hate us" idea, I'm saying that it is a lot more complicated than they hate us simply because we've violated their turf.

I don't think it's a lot more complicated. Other than, "Osama hates Christians" I haven't heard another argument as to why he hates us. I think us violating his turf is the main reason, other reasons are a lot smaller...least of which is our religion. I really don't believe Osama believes in a holy war, except that he knows it motivates the mobs.