Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

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Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by kalm »

Tons of good stuff in this piece - upping Bush's war ante, sacrificing the constitution, nationalism. I'm especially curious to see Skelly and the terrorism hawks defend Obama's attack on the 5th amendment.
Yesterday, riding a wave of adulation and military-reverence, the Obama administration tried to end the life of this American citizen -- never charged with, let alone convicted of, any crime -- with a drone strike in Yemen, but missed and killed two other people instead:

A missile strike from an American military drone in a remote region of Yemen on Thursday was aimed at killing Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical American-born cleric believed to be hiding in the country, American officials said Friday.

The attack does not appear to have killed Mr. Awlaki, the officials said, but may have killed operatives of Al Qaeda's affiliate in Yemen.


The other people killed "may have" been Al Qaeda operatives. Or they "may not have" been. Who cares? They're mere collateral damage on the glorious road to ending the life of this American citizen without due process (and pointing out that the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution expressly guarantees that "no person shall be deprived of life without due process of law" -- and provides no exception for war -- is the sort of tedious legalism that shouldn't interfere with the excitement of drone strikes)...
And for those who think the War on Terror will now be winding down, here's a solid argument to the contrary.
Whenever America uses violence in a way that makes its citizens cheer, beam with nationalistic pride, and rally around their leader, more violence is typically guaranteed. Futile decade-long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan may temporarily dampen the nationalistic enthusiasm for war, but two shots to the head of Osama bin Laden -- and the We are Great and Good proclamations it engenders -- can easily rejuvenate that war love. . . . We're feeling good and strong about ourselves again -- and righteous -- and that's often the fertile ground for more, not less, aggression.

The killing of bin Laden got the testosterone pumping, the righteousness pulsating, and faith in the American military and its Commander-in-Chief skyrocketing to all-time highs. It made America feel good about itself in a way that no other event has since at least Obama's inauguration; we got to forget about rampant unemployment, home foreclosures by the millions, a decade's worth of militaristic futility and slaughter, and ever-growing Third-World levels of wealth inequality. This was a week for flag-waving, fist-pumping, and nationalistic chanting: even -- especially -- among liberals, who were able to take the lead and show the world (and themselves) that they are no wilting, delicate wimps; it's not merely swaggering right-wing Texans, but they, too, who can put bullets in people's heads and dump corpses into the ocean and then joke and cheer about it afterwards. It's inconceivable that this wave of collective pride, boosted self-esteem, vicarious strength, and renewed purpose won't produce a desire to replicate itself. Four days after bin Laden is killed, a missile rains down from the sky to try to execute Awlaki without due process, and that'll be far from the last such episode (indeed, also yesterday, the U.S. launched a drone attack in Pakistan, ending the lives of 15 more people: yawn).

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... /07/awlaki" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by dbackjon »

Is he still a citizen? Did he renounce it? Can citizenship be stripped?


The American citizens that joined the Germans in WWI - should they have been exempt from being shot at?


Has he been given the opportunity to surrender?
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by kalm »

dbackjon wrote:Is he still a citizen? Did he renounce it? Can citizenship be stripped?


The American citizens that joined the Germans in WWI - should they have been exempt from being shot at?


Has he been given the opportunity to surrender?
Good questions. Damn you.
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by ∞∞∞ »

I think he pseudo-revoked his citizenship when he committed treason and joined a military that's fightning the United States and trying to actively kill Americans. I also think that sometimes the law of common sense should take precedence over the law of the land, as long as it's absolutely reasonable (ex. kids being forced to take down lemonade stands because they don't have permits). I think this is one of those cases where our natural common sense as humans should bypass our written laws, and I find it perfectly reasonable to kill someone who is trying to kill us. This is a pretty damn good question though as I can see the slippery slope side of it too.

On a fun side note, this dude was the Imam at the Mosque my parents used to take me to when I actually cared about religion. Don't remember much, but I never recalled him goin' all ape-shit on America during his sermons, or whatever they're called in Islam. It's kinda freaky to know that I actually met this fella at one point in my life, and hell even shaked his hand. :blink:
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by EWURanger »

I'm not sure if his citizenship has been revoked, but it'd be stupid for him to renounce it - because if he did, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. It potentially makes things a lot harder for the government, since I think this is the first time its sought approval for the targeting of a U.S. citizen. The ACLU challenged the government on this last year, but a Federal Court threw it out. The Yemeni government's stance is that he is captured dead or alive.

They are walking a fine line here, but IMO, the fact that he's still (?) a citizen is really just a technicality. We're talking about someone who is complicit in terrorist activities against the US, hiding in a Yemeni desert to avoid capture. The people that are whining about due process are the same people that would be bitching about us sending guys in to capture him.
Last edited by EWURanger on Sun May 08, 2011 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by EWURanger »

∞∞∞ wrote:It's kinda freaky to know that I actually met this fella at one point in my life, and hell even shaked his hand. :blink:
That is weird. :?
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by kalm »

EWURanger wrote:I'm not sure if his citizenship has been revoked, but it'd be stupid for him to renounce it - because if he did, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. It potentially makes things a lot harder for the government, since I think this is the first time its sought approval for the targeting of a U.S. citizen. The ACLU challenged the government on this last year, but a Federal Court threw it out. The Yemeni government's stance is that he is captured dead or alive.

They are walking a fine line here, but IMO, the fact that he's still (?) a citizen is really just a technicality. We're talking about someone who is complicit in terrorist activities against the US, hiding in a Yemeni desert to avoid capture. The people that are whining about due process are the same people that would be bitching about us sending guys in to capture him.
You should post more over here. :thumb:
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by dbackjon »

∞∞∞ wrote:I think he pseudo-revoked his citizenship when he committed treason and joined a military that's fightning the United States and trying to actively kill Americans. I also think that sometimes the law of common sense should take precedence over the law of the land, as long as it's absolutely reasonable (ex. kids being forced to take down lemonade stands because they don't have permits). I think this is one of those cases where our natural common sense as humans should bypass our written laws, and I find it perfectly reasonable to kill someone who is trying to kill us. This is a pretty damn good question though as I can see the slippery slope side of it too.

On a fun side note, this dude was the Imam at the Mosque my parents used to take me to when I actually cared about religion. Don't remember much, but I never recalled him goin' all ape-shit on America during his sermons, or whatever they're called in Islam. It's kinda freaky to know that I actually met this fella at one point in my life, and hell even shaked his hand. :blink:
Great points.


And you had a chance to take him out??
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by Skjellyfetti »

He's still a US citizen. I'd like to see the US revoke his citizenship... I don't know the legality of it... and I can't recall anyone else having their US citizenship stripped like this... but, if possible, we should.

As a citizen, he deserves due process. I don't really give a shit if a bomb falls out of the sky and kills him, though. If he's captured alive, he should stand trial.
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by travelinman67 »

Citizenship is irrelevant under the Patriot Act. As long as courts deem the person an "enemy combatant" (though Holder has stopped using that term), the courts still recognize anyone supporting the "Taliban" or "Al Quaida" as inclusive for the purposes of reclassification from Justice Department jurisdiction to Defense Department as an "unlawful combatant" (newest definition includes those previously identifed under the Bush admin's "enemy combatant" designator). Awlaki has made NUMEROUS statements supporting violence against the U.S., and intelligence has tied him to several terror plots/attempts. He is an "enemy combatant", releasing him from Justice's reach and making his demise a DOD project.

Almost think the kill shot failure resulted from conscious decision or sabotage. Reports said we missed his vehicle twice, then a pickup showed up with two "aides" attempting to warn him (?). So Awlaki gets the two men to swap vehicles with him, he drives off in their veh, then the third missile gets the two chumps who switched with him....

???

Smells fishy.

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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by CitadelGrad »

Dropping a bomb on his ass is due process. Hunting terrorist is a process and that fucker is due.
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by Ivytalk »

I recall that, about a year ago, Congress was talking about a law to revoke the U.S. citizenship of terrorists. Don't think it was finalized. There are several existing bases for revoking citizenship, including immigration fraud by naturalized citizens and treason. Article III, section 3 of the Constitution defines treason fairly precisely and gives Congress the power to determine its punishment. But the first step is getting a conviction, which involves Due Process. So there you go. :|

That said, I give the guy six months. :coffee:
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by CitadelGrad »

Someone should create an Al-Qaeda/Taliban dead pool. With 2.7 terabytes taken from bin Laden's house, there has to be some really good actionable intelligence.
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:I think he pseudo-revoked his citizenship when he committed treason and joined a military that's fightning the United States and trying to actively kill Americans. I also think that sometimes the law of common sense should take precedence over the law of the land, as long as it's absolutely reasonable (ex. kids being forced to take down lemonade stands because they don't have permits). I think this is one of those cases where our natural common sense as humans should bypass our written laws, and I find it perfectly reasonable to kill someone who is trying to kill us. This is a pretty damn good question though as I can see the slippery slope side of it too.
Well said Infinity Trois. I think it is more than reasonable to kill this man due to his open comments about bringing pain and death on Americans. He is a traitor and should be treated as such. Really, we shouldn't be so damn PC and just let the military do thier job. Total war is horrible and citizens suffer the wrath of thier government or the evil that thier government harbors, but it's the only way once diplomacy has failed (imho). :coffee: :twocents:
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by Ibanez »

CitadelGrad wrote:Someone should create an Al-Qaeda/Taliban dead pool. With 2.7 terabytes taken from bin Laden's house, there has to be some really good actionable intelligence.
It probably has a lot of this..

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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by Ibanez »

Meanwhile, what is up with the inccrease in attacks on terrorists? Have we finally grown a pair or is this to give Obama more credit now that the election cycle is picking up. Remember the first debates were last week.
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Ibanez wrote:Meanwhile, what is up with the inccrease in attacks on terrorists? Have we finally grown a pair or is this to give Obama more credit now that the election cycle is picking up. Remember the first debates were last week.
Drone attacks have been up substantially since Obama was sworn in.
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

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I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God
:coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

:coffee:
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
:coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

:coffee:
Really? Did we give due process to all the Southerns killed during the civil war? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: He's taken up arms against his country...he is an "enemy" of domestic nature....
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by dbackjon »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
:coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

:coffee:
How about we give him 24 hours to surrender, hold a trial in absentia, then, if found guilty of a capital crime, sentence him to death?
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by AZGrizFan »

dbackjon wrote:
kalm wrote:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

:coffee:
How about we give him 24 hours to surrender, hold a trial in absentia, then, if found guilty of a capital crime, sentence him to death?
Sounds good to me. How about we do that for all of 'em? :thumb:
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by dbackjon »

AZGrizFan wrote:
dbackjon wrote:
How about we give him 24 hours to surrender, hold a trial in absentia, then, if found guilty of a capital crime, sentence him to death?
Sounds good to me. How about we do that for all of 'em? :thumb:

Good plan
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by Ivytalk »

Like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland: "Sentence first, trial after!" :nod:
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Re: Does Anwar al-Awlaki Deserve Due Process?

Post by HI54UNI »

Shoot the bastard. If he is innocent Allah will save him.
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