AZGrizFan wrote:
Now you're just being delusional. I'd take Halladay AND Lee before I'd take CC. And that's from somebody with no dog in this fight.
Halladay pitched for years in the AL East and he was NEVER as good as Sabathia is now performing. It's just a fact that in the AL, especially in the AL East, you face deeper and better lineups, and your ERA will be somewhat higher. Halladay has never looked so good since he's been in the NL.
And if you'd take Lee over Sabathia, you need to think that over. Sabathia's regular season numbers are much better than Lee's almost every year. And in the post-season, Sabathia delivers over and over on three day's rest while Lee simply will not take the ball without four-day's rest. The Yankees won the 2009 World Series because Sabathia took the ball every third day.
If you took a poll of major league GMs, and asked them to draft a pitching staff for a post-season series, I'd bet the vast majority would choose Sabathia No. 1, because he will give you quality starts on short rest.
Sabathia is better than any starter on the Phils. Period.
Once again, basing your argument on the past. You can't compare the AL East from when Halladay was there to the AL East of today.
And just how good is Sabathia doing against the AL East this year? The only competition is Boston and I think he's lost every start against them. His ERA against the only team that matters - Boston - is over 7.00.
I also don't think most GM's would take Sabathia over Halladay. They might if a 3 man rotation was part of the deal, but the Phils won't be using a 3 man rotation for the playoffs, so pitching on short rest isn't an issue.
JoltinJoe wrote:
Halladay pitched for years in the AL East and he was NEVER as good as Sabathia is now performing. It's just a fact that in the AL, especially in the AL East, you face deeper and better lineups, and your ERA will be somewhat higher. Halladay has never looked so good since he's been in the NL.
And if you'd take Lee over Sabathia, you need to think that over. Sabathia's regular season numbers are much better than Lee's almost every year. And in the post-season, Sabathia delivers over and over on three day's rest while Lee simply will not take the ball without four-day's rest. The Yankees won the 2009 World Series because Sabathia took the ball every third day.
If you took a poll of major league GMs, and asked them to draft a pitching staff for a post-season series, I'd bet the vast majority would choose Sabathia No. 1, because he will give you quality starts on short rest.
Sabathia is better than any starter on the Phils. Period.
Once again, basing your argument on the past. You can't compare the AL East from when Halladay was there to the AL East of today.
And just how good is Sabathia doing against the AL East this year? The only competition is Boston and I think he's lost every start against them. His ERA against the only team that matters - Boston - is over 7.00.I also don't think most GM's would take Sabathia over Halladay. They might if a 3 man rotation was part of the deal, but the Phils won't be using a 3 man rotation for the playoffs, so pitching on short rest isn't an issue.
Just stop it, 86. You keep injecting FACTS into JJ's emotional outbursts. It simply doesn't wash.
CC is about DONE. In the month of August he's given up 20 ER's in just 36 IP...that's an ERA just a tad under 5.00. Hitters hit .324 against him, and his whip ballooned up to 1.35.
The Yankmees have been ridin' his ass so hard, he done wore himself out. Good luck with that in the playoffs, Jose.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
AZGrizFan wrote:In fact, a little further analysis shows this:
When CC's stats are broken down, he's feasting on the have-nots, and struggling with the haves....
His stats against likely playoff foes TB/Boston/Texas/Detroit/Anaheim are: 4.56 ERA with a 1.40 WHIP
Halladay's #'s go up as well when narrowed down to playoff competition, but not nearly so alarmingly: 3.46 ERA with a 1.13 WHIP.
While I think you could make an argument that CC is the better pitcher (I don't think he is), it's definitely not a slam dunk as JJ would have you think.
AZGrizFan wrote:In fact, a little further analysis shows this:
When CC's stats are broken down, he's feasting on the have-nots, and struggling with the haves....
His stats against likely playoff foes TB/Boston/Texas/Detroit/Anaheim are: 4.56 ERA with a 1.40 WHIP
Halladay's #'s go up as well when narrowed down to playoff competition, but not nearly so alarmingly: 3.46 ERA with a 1.13 WHIP.
Sabathia has his ring because he earned. In the post-season, he will do it again. You could monkey around with the stats all you want. Sabathia goes deep into games and gets wins. No one in the business is better at going deep into games and getting the W.
Tonight is a great example of why Sabathia is the best. Doesn't have his best stuff, but he grinds out 128 pitches in six innings and has the Yankees in position to win. Sabathia is the only guy in baseball who could do what he has done tonight.
AZGrizFan wrote:In fact, a little further analysis shows this:
When CC's stats are broken down, he's feasting on the have-nots, and struggling with the haves....
His stats against likely playoff foes TB/Boston/Texas/Detroit/Anaheim are: 4.56 ERA with a 1.40 WHIP
Halladay's #'s go up as well when narrowed down to playoff competition, but not nearly so alarmingly: 3.46 ERA with a 1.13 WHIP.
Sabathia has his ring because he earned. In the post-season, he will do it again. You could monkey around with the stats all you want. Sabathia goes deep into games and gets wins. No one in the business is better at going deep into games and getting the W.Tonight is a great example of why Sabathia is the best. Doesn't have his best stuff, but he grinds out 128 pitches in six innings and has the Yankees in position to win. Sabathia is the only guy in baseball who could do what he has done tonight.
Yep. That's why Halladay has 7 complete games and Sabathia has 3. They both average 7 1/3 innings per start.
Come on, Joe. Halladay has an ERA below 2.80 5 of the last 7 years...has led his league in complete games 6 of the last 7 years and 7 of the last 9. Has 65 complete games to CC's 33....I could go on and on....
If you want to hang your hat on a #1 starter who has OBVIOUSLY struggled since the end of July and is still struggling tonight (2.00 WHIP tonight....he's dodging bullets out there), be my guest. He's obviously gassed and is a shell of his former self at this point.
You can have him. If that's the best the Yanks have to offer, they have no SHOT of winning the AL pennant, let alone the world series.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
JoltinJoe wrote:
Sabathia has his ring because he earned. In the post-season, he will do it again. You could monkey around with the stats all you want. Sabathia goes deep into games and gets wins. No one in the business is better at going deep into games and getting the W.Tonight is a great example of why Sabathia is the best. Doesn't have his best stuff, but he grinds out 128 pitches in six innings and has the Yankees in position to win. Sabathia is the only guy in baseball who could do what he has done tonight.
Yep. That's why Halladay has 7 complete games and Sabathia has 3. They both average 7 1/3 innings per start.
Come on, Joe. Halladay has an ERA below 2.80 5 of the last 7 years...has led his league in complete games 6 of the last 7 years and 7 of the last 9. Has 65 complete games to CC's 33....I could go on and on....
If you want to hang your hat on a #1 starter who has OBVIOUSLY struggled since the end of July and is still struggling tonight (2.00 WHIP tonight....he's dodging bullets out there), be my guest. He's obviously gassed and is a shell of his former self at this point.
You can have him. If that's the best the Yanks have to offer, they have no SHOT of winning the AL pennant, let alone the world series.
AZGrizFan wrote:
Yep. That's why Halladay has 7 complete games and Sabathia has 3. They both average 7 1/3 innings per start.
Come on, Joe. Halladay has an ERA below 2.80 5 of the last 7 years...has led his league in complete games 6 of the last 7 years and 7 of the last 9. Has 65 complete games to CC's 33....I could go on and on....
If you want to hang your hat on a #1 starter who has OBVIOUSLY struggled since the end of July and is still struggling tonight (2.00 WHIP tonight....he's dodging bullets out there), be my guest. He's obviously gassed and is a shell of his former self at this point.
You can have him. If that's the best the Yanks have to offer, they have no SHOT of winning the AL pennant, let alone the world series.
Sabathia: earned his ring.
Halladay: no rings, and he's earned them.
CC Sabathia's career postseason line:
4.66 ERA, 1.565 WHIP, 7-4 record
Roy Halladay career postseason line:
2.45 ERA, .773 WHIP, 2-1 record
Another swing and a miss Joe....this is a team game, and Sabathia ain't helping his much.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
AZGrizFan wrote:In fact, a little further analysis shows this:
When CC's stats are broken down, he's feasting on the have-nots, and struggling with the haves....
His stats against likely playoff foes TB/Boston/Texas/Detroit/Anaheim are: 4.56 ERA with a 1.40 WHIP
Halladay's #'s go up as well when narrowed down to playoff competition, but not nearly so alarmingly: 3.46 ERA with a 1.13 WHIP.
Sabathia has his ring because he earned. In the post-season, he will do it again. You could monkey around with the stats all you want. Sabathia goes deep into games and gets wins. No one in the business is better at going deep into games and getting the W.
Tonight is a great example of why Sabathia is the best. Doesn't have his best stuff, but he grinds out 128 pitches in six innings and has the Yankees in position to win. Sabathia is the only guy in baseball who could do what he has done tonight.
Way to overrate your guy. On the one hand you brag that he's the best at going deep into games. But, when he only goes 6 innings (like he did tonight, in an important game) you brag that he's the only guy in baseball that can grind it out when he doesn't have his best stuff. Lots of pitchers grind it out on off nights, there was nothing special about what Sabathia did tonight. Every #1 starter in baseball can do what Sabathia did tonight.
You should be more concerned that Sabathia has now pitched 4 games against the Red Sox this year and has yet to have his best stuff.
You really are dilusional when it comes to discussing the Yankees. I hope it's meant to be schtick, because you are too much of a homer.
JoltinJoe wrote:
Sabathia has his ring because he earned. In the post-season, he will do it again. You could monkey around with the stats all you want. Sabathia goes deep into games and gets wins. No one in the business is better at going deep into games and getting the W.
Tonight is a great example of why Sabathia is the best. Doesn't have his best stuff, but he grinds out 128 pitches in six innings and has the Yankees in position to win. Sabathia is the only guy in baseball who could do what he has done tonight.
Way to overrate your guy. On the one hand you brag that he's the best at going deep into games. But, when he only goes 6 innings (like he did tonight, in an important game) you brag that he's the only guy in baseball that can grind it out when he doesn't have his best stuff. Lots of pitchers grind it out on off nights, there was nothing special about what Sabathia did tonight. Every #1 starter in baseball can do what Sabathia did tonight.
You should be more concerned that Sabathia has now pitched 4 games against the Red Sox this year and has yet to have his best stuff.
You really are dilusional when it comes to discussing the Yankees. I hope it's meant to be schtick, because you are too much of a homer.
You NL guys crack me up. You think any starter could do what Sabathia did tonight? Boston has the best lineup in all of baseball and its batters are among the most disciplined in the game. There is no lineup like Boston in the NL. Halladay loses tonight.
BlueHen86 wrote:
Way to overrate your guy. On the one hand you brag that he's the best at going deep into games. But, when he only goes 6 innings (like he did tonight, in an important game) you brag that he's the only guy in baseball that can grind it out when he doesn't have his best stuff. Lots of pitchers grind it out on off nights, there was nothing special about what Sabathia did tonight. Every #1 starter in baseball can do what Sabathia did tonight.
You should be more concerned that Sabathia has now pitched 4 games against the Red Sox this year and has yet to have his best stuff.
You really are dilusional when it comes to discussing the Yankees. I hope it's meant to be schtick, because you are too much of a homer.
You NL guys crack me up. You think any starter could do what Sabathia did tonight? Boston has the best lineup in all of baseball and its batters are among the most disciplined in the game. There is no lineup like Boston in the NL. Halladay loses tonight.
Boston has a good line up? That speaks well of the Phils pitching staff, our second best pitcher, Cliff Lee, shut them out earlier this year.
As for tonight, Halladay pitched 7 shut out innings of 2-hit ball against the top NL offense so far this year. Oh yeah, he didn't have his best stuff, but it was better than CC's.
JoltinJoe wrote:
You NL guys crack me up. You think any starter could do what Sabathia did tonight? Boston has the best lineup in all of baseball and its batters are among the most disciplined in the game. There is no lineup like Boston in the NL. Halladay loses tonight.
Boston has a good line up? That speaks well of the Phils pitching staff, our second best pitcher, Cliff Lee, shut them out earlier this year.
As for tonight, Halladay pitched 7 shut out innings of 2-hit ball against the top NL offense so far this year. Oh yeah, he didn't have his best stuff, but it was better than CC's.
There is a huge difference between the Reds and the Red Sox.
Another swing and a miss Joe....this is a team game, and Sabathia ain't helping his much.
Sabathia's line is distorted by two bad post-seasons early in his career.
He was a monster in 2009 and carried that Yankees team to the World Series. Halladay: no rings.
Do you realize Sabathia has only 10 fewer career wins than Halladay, but he has played three fewer seasons?
Joe...you're blowin' shit out your ass now. You should stop before you embarrass yourself further....
CC's "monster" 2009 postseason??? Shirley, you can't be serious....3 starts. 16 IP (that's a 5 1/3 average ) 10 ER. TEN!!! ERA of 5.625. A WHIP of an astronomical 1.81.
If THAT qualifies as "monster" then RJ was a regular Sandy Koufax for you boys.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
JoltinJoe wrote:
Sabathia's line is distorted by two bad post-seasons early in his career.
He was a monster in 2009 and carried that Yankees team to the World Series. Halladay: no rings.
Do you realize Sabathia has only 10 fewer career wins than Halladay, but he has played three fewer seasons?
Joe...you're blowin' **** out your ass now. You should stop before you embarrass yourself further....
CC's "monster" 2009 postseason??? Shirley, you can't be serious....3 starts. 16 IP (that's a 5 1/3 average ) 10 ER. TEN!!! ERA of 5.625. A WHIP of an astronomical 1.81.
If THAT qualifies as "monster" then RJ was a regular Sandy Koufax for you boys.
JoltinJoe wrote:Do you realize Sabathia has only 10 fewer career wins than Halladay, but he has played three fewer seasons?
Roy Halladay 184 wins in 372 career starts for a winning percentage of .669.
CC Sabathia 174 wins in 350 career starts for a winning percentage of .647.
ANOTHER swing and miss.
Joe, in EVERY MEANINGFUL CATEGORY Halladay is the better pitcher, but he hasn't EVER had the kind of supporting cast that Sabathia now enjoys. This is still a team game....and if the NY Yankees had Halladay they'd have more than one WS ring since 2000.
You know it. I know it. The whole world knows it.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
AZGrizFan wrote:
Joe...you're blowin' **** out your ass now. You should stop before you embarrass yourself further....
CC's "monster" 2009 postseason??? Shirley, you can't be serious....3 starts. 16 IP (that's a 5 1/3 average ) 10 ER. TEN!!! ERA of 5.625. A WHIP of an astronomical 1.81.
If THAT qualifies as "monster" then RJ was a regular Sandy Koufax for you boys.
Uh, your stats are completely wrong.
You know what...you're right. My stats are LAST year when he collapsed in the playoffs.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
BlueHen86 wrote:
Boston has a good line up? That speaks well of the Phils pitching staff, our second best pitcher, Cliff Lee, shut them out earlier this year.
As for tonight, Halladay pitched 7 shut out innings of 2-hit ball against the top NL offense so far this year. Oh yeah, he didn't have his best stuff, but it was better than CC's.
There is a huge difference between the Reds and the Red Sox.
Yeah, but if our second best pitcher can shut out the Red Sox, I can't wait to see our ace face them.
The Phillies are 2-1 against the Sox this year. The Yankees are 2-10.
) 10 ER. TEN!!! ERA of 5.625. A WHIP of an astronomical 1.81.