UND Nickname Change

[Darell1976]

Thats not me silly, thats the image of UND athletics riding cock on the open range. kind of reminds me of Broke Back Mountain, except this cock is representing North Dakotas history as a free range chicken state and the rider, the legend of all the fairies in Grand Forks. Broke Back Mountain was about sensitivity to gay people. I think you could use a lesson in that Darrell. You seem as insensitive to gays, at least by your crude and suggestive remarks, as you are toward Indian Rights and the PC aspects intended to protect innocent folks from the types of exploitation that has the NCAA on the war path so-to-speak.



Of course, if the lawsuit by Turtle Mountain is successful UND will have to continue using Fighting Sioux, suffer NCAA sanctions and be expelled from the BSC, and oh yea, the tribe is suing for all the roalyties as well!

In that case this naming thing is a moot point.

First of all... and secondly What is this about the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewas suing the NCAA? I thought it was the Spirit Lake Sioux Nation (you know since our nickname is Fighting Sioux), but hey you know everything, I will thank my buddies I have that are from the Turtle Mtn Chippewa Tribe in filing a lawsuit against the NCAA. I figure you know everything about every topic and people you would know this tidbit of info.

[JBB]

Thanks for correcting me. Certainly someone that has had their nose in this issue for as long and as deep as you have would have the facts straight wouldnt they?

I dont pay much attention to the issue myself, except to enjoy the outcome and watch the clowns circle the wagons on both sides. Myself, I could care less what you call yourselves just as long as you agree its a good thing the NCAA came along and set you straight. If you cant do that you you appear to be resentful.

Whatever name you choose provided the Native tribes dont stick you with Fighting Sioux and take all the royalty money the North Dakota Cock Riders is still the best because it captures the glorious agrucultural past of the state and shines a light on some of the legends in the Grand Forks area.

[Darell1976]

Thanks for correcting me. Certainly someone that has had their nose in this issue for as long and as deep as you have would have the facts straight wouldnt they?

I dont pay much attention to the issue myself, except to enjoy the outcome and watch the clowns circle the wagons on both sides. Myself, I could care less what you call yourselves just as long as you agree its a good thing the NCAA came along and set you straight. If you cant do that you you appear to be resentful.

Whatever name you choose provided the Native tribes dont stick you with Fighting Sioux and take all the royalty money the North Dakota Cock Riders is still the best because it captures the glorious agrucultural past of the state and shines a light on some of the legends in the Grand Forks area.

The NCAA thought they were doing good until FSU said we will sue you if you change our name, so of course the NCAA got scared and said you have 1 tribal approval and that is good enough for us, so FSU, Utah, survived, CMU used the 1 tribe closest to their campus for approval and it was fine. Along comes UND and they say wait a minute you guys are little folks you need 2 tribal approvals. So the Spirit Lake tribe (closest to UND) approved, but the Standing Rock who is about 90% in South Dakota disapproved. One tribe should have been enought and that is what the Spirit Lake SIoux are suing about. They are being discriminated against because why did every other school need ONE tribe and UND needed TWO!!! The NCAA are a bunch of jerks and I hope Myles Brand burns in hell for the mess he has caused this and every university that had to change their name or modify its logo (W&M) or get rid of their mascot (Illinois). Remember a white guy dressed as an Indian riding on a horse with a flaming spear is okay because Florida State = money!!!

[JBB]

FSU kept its identity because they were willing to sit down and negotiate the settlement with real money, not patronizing taxpayer dollars. The real issue is the royalties. Now the Turtle Mnt. Tribe is going to try and punish UND further by forcing the use of the nickname and taking all the revenue from merchandising. Neither is good for UND.

After 50 years or more of this you would think UND could have done something to encourage a settlement and continues use of the nickname. Why they couldnt is the real story and the real scandal of the entire thing.

[Darell1976]

FSU kept its identity because they were willing to sit down and negotiate the settlement with real money, not patronizing taxpayer dollars. The real issue is the royalties. Now the Turtle Mnt. Tribe is going to try and punish UND further by forcing the use of the nickname and taking all the revenue from merchandising. Neither is good for UND.

After 50 years or more of this you would think UND could have done something to encourage a settlement and continues use of the nickname. Why they couldnt is the real story and the real scandal of the entire thing.

Couldn't people see that as a bribe too? I am sure UND could have given a % of merchandising sales to the tribes in return for their blessing but UND decided to offer a whole bunch of Indian programs at the U instead.

[JBB]

Hardly a bribe when the owner of the image, or at least the person that holds the power to make the image legit in the eyes of the NCAA, is the Tribe. Its only good business to pay the people that control the image royalties on the profits earned from its use.

All the tax dollars UND used to patronize the Native American Students didnt mean a thing, especially when there were folks that would say, in the very next breath, if we cant use the nickname then we should pull all the programs. It just wasnt effective.

I think UND was wrong in not negotiating with earned dollars from the merchandising. They wanted it all and did not want to share the revenue with anyone, not even the owner. So, UND spent 50 yrs trying to prove the Tribes didnt control the image.

[GeauxSioux]

Hardly a bribe when the owner of the image, or at least the person that holds the power to make the image legit in the eyes of the NCAA, is the Tribe. Its only good business to pay the people that control the image royalties on the profits earned from its use.

All the tax dollars UND used to patronize the Native American Students didnt mean a thing, especially when there were folks that would say, in the very next breath, if we cant use the nickname then we should pull all the programs. It just wasnt effective.

I think UND was wrong in not negotiating with earned dollars from the merchandising. They wanted it all and did not want to share the revenue with anyone, not even the owner. So, UND spent 50 yrs trying to prove the Tribes didnt control the image.

So, if I'm hearing you right, the name isn't racist, hostile or abusive if UND pays the tribe(s) to use it. Does that make any sense? That is why the NCAA's application of their policy is ludicrous. Either a name is hostile and abusive or it isn't. Paying someone to use it, doesn't change that.

I love the Fighting Sioux name and logo, but it is time to change the name and move on.

[Thumper 76]

Hardly a bribe when the owner of the image, or at least the person that holds the power to make the image legit in the eyes of the NCAA, is the Tribe. Its only good business to pay the people that control the image royalties on the profits earned from its use.

All the tax dollars UND used to patronize the Native American Students didnt mean a thing, especially when there were folks that would say, in the very next breath, if we cant use the nickname then we should pull all the programs. It just wasnt effective.

I think UND was wrong in not negotiating with earned dollars from the merchandising. They wanted it all and did not want to share the revenue with anyone, not even the owner. So, UND spent 50 yrs trying to prove the Tribes didnt control the image.

Holy Shit you are dumb

[JBB]

Hardly a bribe when the owner of the image, or at least the person that holds the power to make the image legit in the eyes of the NCAA, is the Tribe. Its only good business to pay the people that control the image royalties on the profits earned from its use.

All the tax dollars UND used to patronize the Native American Students didnt mean a thing, especially when there were folks that would say, in the very next breath, if we cant use the nickname then we should pull all the programs. It just wasnt effective.

I think UND was wrong in not negotiating with earned dollars from the merchandising. They wanted it all and did not want to share the revenue with anyone, not even the owner. So, UND spent 50 yrs trying to prove the Tribes didnt control the image.

So, if I'm hearing you right, the name isn't racist, hostile or abusive if UND pays the tribe(s) to use it. Does that make any sense? That is why the NCAA's application of their policy is ludicrous. Either a name is hostile and abusive or it isn't. Paying someone to use it, doesn't change that.

I love the Fighting Sioux name and logo, but it is time to change the name and move on.

Thats exactly right. You cant see that because you dont understand grace and forgiveness.

UND has been using something that the Tribes insist belongs to them, their image, for a generation or more. They have been making a profit from that the entire time. That was unfair and was certainly a rub in the hostile/abusive concept.

Finally the politics turned in the Tribes favor all across the USA when the NCAA gave the Tribes the power to approve or kill any of the names on the list. Once they were given back "ownership" of the image, at least inside the NCAA, they were in a position to claim a fair share of the profits the image was generating and extend a hand of friendship.

The end of the hositle/abusive condition is also in the Tribes hands. Forgiveness is theirs to give says the NCAA and a fair shake on the revenues would have gone a long way to easing the resentment toward UND for taking 100% of the revenues for themselves and all the other ugliness associated with the hostile/abusive concept.

Now they are suing to get 100% of the revenues and force UND to use the nickname. Thats how correct I am in this assumption!

[clenz]

So, if I'm hearing you right, the name isn't racist, hostile or abusive if UND pays the tribe(s) to use it. Does that make any sense? That is why the NCAA's application of their policy is ludicrous. Either a name is hostile and abusive or it isn't. Paying someone to use it, doesn't change that.

I love the Fighting Sioux name and logo, but it is time to change the name and move on.

Thats exactly right. You cant see that because you dont understand grace and forgiveness.

UND has been using something that the Tribes insist belongs to them, their image, for a generation or more. They have been making a profit from that the entire time. That was unfair and was certainly a rub in the hostile/abusive concept.

Finally the politics turned in the Tribes favor all across the USA when the NCAA gave the Tribes the power to approve or kill any of the names on the list. Once they were given back "ownership" of the image, at least inside the NCAA, they were in a position to claim a fair share of the profits the image was generating and extend a hand of friendship.

The end of the hositle/abusive condition is also in the Tribes hands. Forgiveness is theirs to give says the NCAA and a fair shake on the revenues would have gone a long way to easing the resentment toward UND for taking 100% of the revenues for themselves and all the other ugliness associated with the hostile/abusive concept.

Now they are suing to get 100% of the revenues and force UND to use the nickname. Thats how correct I am in this assumption!

So....can I call people spick, charlie, nigger, etc... it's okay as long as I pay them?

[JBB]

No bitch.

But, if you use their image to make a whole lot of money you better pay them. UND learned that!

[GeauxSioux]

Thats exactly right. You cant see that because you dont understand grace and forgiveness.

UND has been using something that the Tribes insist belongs to them, their image, for a generation or more. They have been making a profit from that the entire time. That was unfair and was certainly a rub in the hostile/abusive concept.

Finally the politics turned in the Tribes favor all across the USA when the NCAA gave the Tribes the power to approve or kill any of the names on the list. Once they were given back "ownership" of the image, at least inside the NCAA, they were in a position to claim a fair share of the profits the image was generating and extend a hand of friendship.

The end of the hositle/abusive condition is also in the Tribes hands. Forgiveness is theirs to give says the NCAA and a fair shake on the revenues would have gone a long way to easing the resentment toward UND for taking 100% of the revenues for themselves and all the other ugliness associated with the hostile/abusive concept.

Now they are suing to get 100% of the revenues and force UND to use the nickname. Thats how correct I am in this assumption!

The original decree said nothing about allowing the tribes to approve the nicknames, nor did is say anything about forgiveness.

For NCAA Politically Correct enforcers, the issue is cut-and-dried. “We believe hostile or abusive nicknames are troubling to us and it can’t continue,” said panel chairman Walter Harrison.

Once again either the names are hostile and abusive or they are not. Money should have no play in that point of view. Clenz got it right.

[JBB]

That explains 50 yrs of futility if you dont understand those simple concepts. Like I said grace and forgiveness. Loud and proud instead!

The fact UND was/is making money off the image has nothing to do with it?

[clenz]

That explains 50 yrs of futility if you dont understand those simple concepts. Like I said grace and forgiveness. Loud and proud instead!

The fact UND was/is making money off the image has nothing to do with it?

The way the rule is set...no it doesn't. However, I wouldn't expect someone with the mental capacity of a fucking retarded gold fish to figure that out.


A name is either abusive or not no matter how much money is paid. Calling a black person a nigger is "abusive" if you pay him nothing, or a million dollars per letter

[JBB]

Something about you disturbes me clenz.

As you struggle with this issue you might consider why UND is the only school that fought and lost. All the others were able to make agreements and a few others changed. Why did this go on for 50 years or more only to end up as bitter as it started?

Maybe a little understanding, a little forgiveness and a little grace would have gone a long way in getting the Tribes to agree to the terms set by the NCAA for continued nickname use? After all it is UND that needed the forgiveness, grace and understanding from the Tribes, not the other way around.

The terms of the NCAA rules gave the power to the tribes. UND had to come to the tribes hat in hand and ask for permission to use the nickname and the image. Over the entire generational disagreement UND was never able to garner any forgiveness, grace or understanding, because those concepts seemed beyond the insitituions capabilities to consider.

One thing Im certain of is this: UND had no grace, forgiveness or understanding comming their way until they showed what is commenly known as "good faith". A very constructive method of assuring the other side you are in good faith and of course assuring yourself they are in good faith would have been a partnering on the revenues created by the use of the Native images, history and name. Something that was going to be severly restricted anyway if an agreement wasnt reached.

Never once did UND consider partnering with the Tribes. They offered some pandering and some tax payer funded programs but never once was it reported that they offered anything that UND thought they owned or controlled, mainly the cash flow from the use of the nickname and logo.

Combined with everything else going on up there that inspired the outrage of the Tribes, the merchandising was simply another sign that UND was incapable of committing itself to any type of arrangement required by the NCAA that wasnt 100% in their favor and written up according to their terms.

[Darell1976]

Something about you disturbes me clenz.

As you struggle with this issue you might consider why UND is the only school that fought and lost. All the others were able to make agreements and a few others changed. Why did this go on for 50 years or more only to end up as bitter as it started?

Maybe a little understanding, a little forgiveness and a little grace would have gone a long way in getting the Tribes to agree to the terms set by the NCAA for continued nickname use? After all it is UND that needed the forgiveness, grace and understanding from the Tribes, not the other way around.

The terms of the NCAA rules gave the power to the tribes. UND had to come to the tribes hat in hand and ask for permission to use the nickname and the image. Over the entire generational disagreement UND was never able to garner any forgiveness, grace or understanding, because those concepts seemed beyond the insitituions capabilities to consider.

One thing Im certain of is this: UND had no grace, forgiveness or understanding comming their way until they showed what is commenly known as "good faith". A very constructive method of assuring the other side you are in good faith and of course assuring yourself they are in good faith would have been a partnering on the revenues created by the use of the Native images, history and name. Something that was going to be severly restricted anyway if an agreement wasnt reached.

Never once did UND consider partnering with the Tribes. They offered some pandering and some tax payer funded programs but never once was it reported that they offered anything that UND thought they owned or controlled, mainly the cash flow from the use of the nickname and logo.

Combined with everything else going on up there that inspired the outrage of the Tribes, the merchandising was simply another sign that UND was incapable of committing itself to any type of arrangement required by the NCAA that wasnt 100% in their favor and written up according to their terms.

IF UND was the givin the same deal as the other schools (1 tribe) this would have been over. UND got that 1 tribal approval just like FSU, Utah and CMU, but since AG Wayne Stenjeum is a total douchebag he negotiated 2 tribal approvals including a tribe that is only 10% in this state. Why didn't CMU get permission from Chippewa tribes in Wisconsin or Minnesota? Or Seminole tribes in Oklahoma or Georgia, or Ute tribes in Nevada or Colorado. This is the BS deal UND was dealt with. Native Americans go to UND at a discounted rate(not free tuition) because they are Native American. German-Americans, or Norweign Americans don't get that deal, plus UND offers more Indian programs than almost any other school in the country. So its not like UND turned its back on the NA community. Also shouldn't the Turtle Mountain Chippewas get some royalties from the logo too since it was their member who make the logo. You can have a friendship between school and tribe without money.

[JBB]

UND patronizes the Tribes through tax payer funded programs as they pocket 100% of the cash revenues from use of their image, or at least thats the way the NCAA sees it. Its their image and you need their approval, their forgiveness, their grace to continue to use it. That is still not understood by UND and its supporters.

[Darell1976]

UND patronizes the Tribes through tax payer funded programs as they pocket 100% of the cash revenues from use of their image, or at least thats the way the NCAA sees it. Its their image and you need their approval, their forgiveness, their grace to continue to use it. That is still not understood by UND and its supporters.

Since the buffalo is a sacred animal of NA's. I think NDSU need to start paying all the tribes in ND some money for use of the animal in their logo and mascot.

[JBB]

UND patronizes the Tribes through tax payer funded programs as they pocket 100% of the cash revenues from use of their image, or at least thats the way the NCAA sees it. Its their image and you need their approval, their forgiveness, their grace to continue to use it. That is still not understood by UND and its supporters.

Since the buffalo is a sacred animal of NA's. I think NDSU need to start paying all the tribes in ND some money for use of the animal in their logo and mascot.

If you can get the politics to line up for that, get the NCAA to make it a policy, Im sure NDSU would approach the situation with a much different attitude than UND and in a very short while would emerge with a new alliance and new force behind the Buffalo, the image of the greatest football program ever to emerge from the plains of the Dakota Territiories.

UND failed in every aspect of that negotiation and I think its evidence of a serious flaw in their underlying philosophy. We have seen similar results in some other escapades like stopping competition with NDSU, resisting the move to D1 etc.

[AZGrizFan]

Since the buffalo is a sacred animal of NA's. I think NDSU need to start paying all the tribes in ND some money for use of the animal in their logo and mascot.

If you can get the politics to line up for that, get the NCAA to make it a policy, Im sure NDSU would approach the situation with a much different attitude than UND and in a very short while would emerge with a new alliance and new force behind the Buffalo, the image of the greatest football program ever to emerge from the plains of the Dakota Territiories.

UND failed in every aspect of that negotiation and I think its evidence of a serious flaw in their underlying philosophy. We have seen similar results in some other escapades like stopping competition with NDSU, resisting the move to D1 etc.

What would they do? Poll the buffalo and see if they're "for" having their image and likeness being used for such obvious commercial gain?

[JBB]

I dont know, thats what makes that question so absurd. Its almost a form of denial.

[LastMinuteman]

A name is either abusive or not no matter how much money is paid. Calling a black person a nigger is "abusive" if you pay him nothing, or a million dollars per letter

That's not quite the same thing. A tribe is a specific political entity with appointed representatives, and an official tribal name isn't inherently a slur. The context of their appropriation of the name determines whether it's in poor taste or not. A university with a strong, mutually-beneficial ongoing relationship with a local tribe is a different situation than a university which chose the name of some indians halfway across the country because they weren't in the mood to name themselves after a dog or a cat that day.

Keep in mind that we're talking about the NCAA, an entity which bans celebrating too much after a touchdown because they think it's in poor taste. They're all about protecting their image. Student activist protests about racial sensitivity aren't worth the trouble when you can nickname your team after damn near anything else and it doesn't seem to hurt their bottom line. But those student protests aren't going to get very far if the tribe is like, "uh, hippies, we told them to use our name. We get money and recognition from this. STFU and go buy a t-shirt if you want to help us out." That's what the NCAA wants to see, something which will kill any argument before it even begins.

[Darell1976]

I dont know, thats what makes that question so absurd. Its almost a form of denial.

It is absurd just like the NCAA telling the University of North Dakota (Dakota is an Indian word) you cannot be the Fighting Sioux even though the closest tribe to your school approves it. So UND could have just Dakota on their jerseys like North and South Carolina does, the state can have Red Tomahawk (the man who shot Sitting Bull) on their Highway signs and NDHP cars. The State can have a county named Sioux. (Standing Rock tribe is in Sioux County, and there is a school with the nickname Sioux but to the tribal council that is okay). And if NDSU were to change their name because the NA people didn't like it, I am sure there would be such an uproar in Fargo that would make this situation look very minor in comparasion.

[Gil Dobie]

Fighting Susans

[No_Skill]

Fighting Susans

Finally, a name I can get behind...so to speak.