As Goes California...

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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

D1B wrote: Tman, what are your thoughts on balancing the interests of industry with the need to protect the environment?
Great question, and one of the toughest.

First, there's a reason for the EIR. But the logical outcome, balanced mitigation, has in effect vanished. Due to litigious environmental activists, the purpose of the EIR has been nullified.

Originally, there were usually draft EIR's, working EIR's and the final, which was, of course, still open to discussion, negotiation and appeal. In it's original concept, however, the EIR had a fixed timeline which forced each "side" into "producing the goods" or dropping their objection. I know this for fact, as I participated in two EIR projects in CA in the mid-80's, one for a new state prison, and another for a large residential development. The "rules" to the game were simple, and admin. judges had little regard for participants who sought "exceptions". Moreso, participants who acted capriciously to delay finalization, could be held liable for the business/builder/project owner's losses. Again, I know that for fact as my employer at the time, a CA city govt., paid a $1.7m settlement for delaying a project due to the City Manager's zealous attempts to extort a water treatment plant expansion from the developer.
But, the reason I underline the EIR, is it has become nothing more than another tool of delay for anti-development and/or environmental organizations, and rarely does the EIR "finalize" the environmental review. To fix this problem, government needs to once again take a hardline stance to enforce the purpose of the EIR, with judges backing up that intent with firm decisions preventing the use of the EIR as merely another tool of delay/obstruction.

Secondly, mitigation needs to come back to reality. In CA, the paradigm of "environmental mitigation" has followed the path of "serial criminal"...no punishment is severe enough. dbackjon recently cited the current revised costs of constructing the Auburn Dam, $6-10 billion. What he DIDN'T discuss, is what was included in that "revised cost"... note pages 35 through 37...benefits and costs...

Auburn-Folsom South Unit Special Report: Cost-Benefit Update

The actual revised cost to construct the dam (field costs) is $3.76 billion to which the engineer's estimate added 20% for "unlisted item" and another 20% for contingencies. Total "contract cost": $5.42 billion. Now, before I go on, having been and taught estimating for years, I usually used 8% for unlisted items and 17% for contingencies (pretty standard norms for construction in CA), but I won't quibble about their figures, although IMHO I feel that 15% additional is unsupported by industry practice.
Moving on to "Non-Contract" costs (ahem, "mitigation" expenses...)
Table TS - 7
Project Non-Contract Costs
Description Amount...................($ millions)
Lands and Rights
Reservoir Take-Line.........................$ 38.0
Environmental Mitigation Lands............$ 2,320.0
Major Highway Relocations..................$ 22.0
Environmental Mitigation....................$ 1,480.0
Environmental Compliance and Planning...$ 15.0
Engineering and Design......................$ 100.0
Construction Management ..................$ 200.0
Total Non-Contract Costs....................$ 4,175.0

Now, subtracting the Take-Line surveying/engineering, highway relocation, Eng.& Design and CM costs of $360 million, the "environmental mitigation" costs total $3.815 billion, or approximately an amount equal to the actual "hard" field costs of constructing the dam: In effect a one-to-one ratio for environmental mitigation, which in effect DOUBLES THE ACTUAL COST OF CONSTRUCTION.

It's this degree of draconian, nonsensical, punitive "mitigation" which has placed environmentalism on a direct collision course with our nation's economic interests. Remembering, that no other country on the planet assesses this extent of punitive "fee" upon their businesses or infrastructure developments, and up until 35 years ago (about the time the U.S. GDP started heading into the sh!tter), neither did the United States.

Third, regulatory imposition of environmental retrofitting/remediation, absent cost-benefit studies. I can cite more examples of thoughtless regulatory penalties and post-completion retrofitting than we have time for, but I'll reference two as example:

In the past twenty years, CA has instituted a licensing and testing requirement for most bakeries, coffee roasting facilities, oil and gas processing/dispensing facilities, dry cleaners, drive-through fast food restaurants, and even wineries. If the local air-quality district determines that the facility is emitting pollutants exceeding their regional limits, they'll require the business to add emissions "scrubbers" which often cost upward of $500k and more. For small mom and pop businesses, that's a door-shutting cost that cannot be absorbed. Most notable is that the "standards" applied by each air-quality district can exceed the State Air Resources Board "standards", and often do. What results, is businesses relocating to counties with minimal emissions levels, or in some cases, exporting their raw products out of state (NV and AZ) for processing (cleaners, even wineries are shipping bulk juice out of state for fermentation, then returning the bulk fermented wine to CA for storage, packaging and marketing). Note that in the end, the increased regulatory requirements do not eliminate the targeted emission, but only end up adding to the cost of the finished product.
Additionally, the emissions monitoring has become a wellspring of penalty revenues for the government (which is IMHO, the REAL goal...). It is not uncommon for large (read: "deep pocket") businesses to receive fines of $100k to $1M for failure to comply with ARB (Air Resource Board) regulations. Some of these heinous offenses include selling VOC containing windshield washer fluid, which is APPROVED for use in mountain regions of CA, in regions where it IS NOT approved for use. For example, if Ace Hardware, or Sears or PepBoys in Sacramento sells a gallon of "mountain" approved washer fluid to some consumer who is preparing for a trip to the mountains that weekend (...representative of about 80% of every person in the Sierra's on the weekend), then Sears can be fined $600,000... http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/nr102708.htm
Ace Hardware can be fined $850,000... http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/nr010708.htm.
Any business that maintains a "fleet" of diesel powered vehicles, regardless of the number of vehicles (a plumbing contractor with two diesel service vans is subject) is required to annually test every vehicle for "smoke opacity", utilizing a computerized system tied into an ARB reporting program. Violation of that requirement, whether failure to test, inadequate documentation, use of unapproved or unregistered testing equipment, or delinquency in testing or reporting, FREQUENTLY results in fines of $10k to $500k and the list of offenders reads like a who's who of big business in CA. Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, Waste Management, Sears, UPS/Fed Ex, Brinks, Farmer John Packing, Western Farms Packing, CK Trucking, Airgas, Bimbo Bakeries (distribution)...and yes, even Jesse James of West Coast Choppers gets fined $271,000 for building all those cool choppers... http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/nr012607.htm ...and on and on and on...

...adding insult to injury, the whackjob that runs the ARB in CA, Mary Nichols, is an unabashed slash and burn environmental attorney who got her start under Governor Moonbeam back in the '70's and has earned her reputation as the most heavy handed environmental regulator in the U.S...in fact, in polls amongst environmental groups, she was the first choice to head Obama's EPA. And with the CA leftislature handing her an annual gross budget of $1.5 BILLION, she can cause a lot of damage to CA state businesses.

Now...

Assuming you're still awake...

...the point of this third issue is that facing the prospect of revenue generation via draconian punitive enforcement of environmental law, or implementation of "cap and trade" extortion schemes, cash strapped government bodies at the federal and state level have found this venue too enticing to step back and view the long-term ramifications to economic development and trade. Which is one of the primary reasons why CA and the U.S. as a whole is in the position we face today.

Finally, as with anything, D1B, the concept of "mitigation" needs to be studied with a prudent eye towards "balancing" the needs of businesses and economic survival with the duty to preserve and protect the environment. One cannot drive the value of one or the other to an extreme, yet, that is what is happening today, with catastrophic economic results, which have begun to be manifested in not only decreased quality of life, but severe personal economic hardships for lower and middle class Americans. Jon continually accuses me of "blaming the environment for everything", and to some degree that is true. But for the unrealistic imposition of financial burdens, resulting from unchecked environmental "mitigation" and harassing, obstructionist litigation, placed on business and infrastructure development and maintenance, our country's employers (IMHO) could afford to pay a living wage to most workers, alleviating much of the cry for unionization and benefits. Moreso, with a living wage and a healthy economy, workers could afford their sometimes "excessive" mortgages, thus minimizing much of this current housing/foreclosure crisis we face.

IMHO.

It's a gray area, but the path we're on is destined to destroy our country.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:Interesting, T-man...

Do you think this goes any where, set in motion the long talked about NoCal/SoCal split into two states?
No. But I'm hoping the head-in-the-sand leaders of the community organizations and unions will get scared enough to shut the hell up for a few years and allow the state to redirect it's focus on overall economic development rather than special interest handouts.

There as still folks in the legislature who hold their extremist agendas as "do or die" political goals. Unfortunately, with their heads also buried in the dark, until someone walks into their office with legal notice of their job duties, pay and benefits being slashed, IMO, they won't understand how angry California business leaders and voters have become. As much as I personally dislike SoCal, I don't believe a two state split is the solution. I do believe what we're seeing is the damage from the Willie Brown era gerrymandering, which permanently resulted in a legislature of polarized extremists and indescribably horrible legislating.

This is a cautionary warning, as with Rahm Emmanuel attempting to take control of the census bureau, the message has become unquestionably clear: It is the Democrats intent to gerrymander the census to guarantee political control for decades. This is A HUGE MISTAKE. No other President has ever allowed this type of overt subversion of the electoral process, yet Obama seems to be endorsing if not ordering the action. It will be a tragedy to our country's heritage for any party to so blatantly act with "coup like" intent to nullify the rights of the voters to hold their elected officials accountable for carrying out the constituents wishes.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by dbackjon »

T-man - I am going to flat out disagree on the gerrymandering issue (at least your claim that Obama is unique in this regard) - the 1990 and 2000 Census/redistricting was controlled by Republicans, and it showed. The criminal nature of the redistricting in Texas, orchestrated by Tom Delay, set back that state for decades.


I do feel that it is time for racial/ethnic considerations to be removed from redistricting. Districts need to be drawn with common interests in mind FIRST and foremost (i.e. the way that the Republicans in Arizona split liberal Flagstaff into three districts in 1990 was 100% political).
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:T-man - I am going to flat out disagree on the gerrymandering issue (at least your claim that Obama is unique in this regard) - the 1990 and 2000 Census/redistricting was controlled by Republicans, and it showed. The criminal nature of the redistricting in Texas, orchestrated by Tom Delay, set back that state for decades.


I do feel that it is time for racial/ethnic considerations to be removed from redistricting. Districts need to be drawn with common interests in mind FIRST and foremost (i.e. the way that the Republicans in Arizona split liberal Flagstaff into three districts in 1990 was 100% political).
The reality is, Jon, given a region with 3 representatives, 1 million registered Democrats and 1 million registered Republicans, the end result will always be two districts of 450,000 Democrats and 10 Republicans, and one district of 999,980 Republicans, 100,000 Democrats (the poorest who don't contribute to campaigns) in a district shaped like a long legged spider run over by a big-rig. And assigning that "duty" to a Capo like "slash and burn" Emmanuel, is inexcusable.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by dbackjon »

travelinman67 wrote:
dbackjon wrote:T-man - I am going to flat out disagree on the gerrymandering issue (at least your claim that Obama is unique in this regard) - the 1990 and 2000 Census/redistricting was controlled by Republicans, and it showed. The criminal nature of the redistricting in Texas, orchestrated by Tom Delay, set back that state for decades.


I do feel that it is time for racial/ethnic considerations to be removed from redistricting. Districts need to be drawn with common interests in mind FIRST and foremost (i.e. the way that the Republicans in Arizona split liberal Flagstaff into three districts in 1990 was 100% political).
The reality is, Jon, given a region with 3 representatives, 1 million registered Democrats and 1 million registered Republicans, the end result will always be two districts of 450,000 Democrats and 10 Republicans, and one district of 999,980 Republicans, 100,000 Democrats (the poorest who don't contribute to campaigns) in a district shaped like a long legged spider run over by a big-rig. And assigning that "duty" to a Capo like "slash and burn" Emmanuel, is inexcusable.
why should that be the reality?
And it could be just as easily (and is in many places) Republicans that garner the 2 safe districts.

I would like to see EVERY district competitive.

And Emmanuel still has a long ways to go to top Delay as being a slash and burner. But since he was a Republican, you were ok with it, right?
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
The reality is, Jon, given a region with 3 representatives, 1 million registered Democrats and 1 million registered Republicans, the end result will always be two districts of 450,000 Democrats and 10 Republicans, and one district of 999,980 Republicans, 100,000 Democrats (the poorest who don't contribute to campaigns) in a district shaped like a long legged spider run over by a big-rig. And assigning that "duty" to a Capo like "slash and burn" Emmanuel, is inexcusable.
why should that be the reality?
And it could be just as easily (and is in many places) Republicans that garner the 2 safe districts.

I would like to see EVERY district competitive.

And Emmanuel still has a long ways to go to top Delay as being a slash and burner. But since he was a Republican, you were ok with it, right?
So what you're saying is, "Turn about is fair play"?





I thought you said you went to school at Middle Tennessee, not the Middle East.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by dbackjon »

I never went to school at MTSU - lived in nashville for a while.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:I never went to school at MTSU - lived in nashville for a while.
My bad. Think it was a controller I worked with down there who was an MTSU grad.

But back to my point...

Is, "Turn about, fair play"?
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by dbackjon »

travelinman67 wrote:
dbackjon wrote:I never went to school at MTSU - lived in nashville for a while.
My bad. Think it was a controller I worked with down there who was an MTSU grad.

But back to my point...

Is, "Turn about, fair play"?
No - I think I have been very clear in this thread that I do not want the census or redistricting to be done politically.

You however, seem intent on Obama-bashing without acknowledging that far worse was done by the Republicans in the last two censuses.

This is typical Republican Bullshit. When they are in power, they do whatever they want, and tell everyone to fuck off. If the Dems try to do the same, the Republicans all start crying like three year olds about how mean and unfair the dems are.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
My bad. Think it was a controller I worked with down there who was an MTSU grad.

But back to my point...

Is, "Turn about, fair play"?
No - I think I have been very clear in this thread that I do not want the census or redistricting to be done politically.

You however, seem intent on Obama-bashing without acknowledging that far worse was done by the Republicans in the last two censuses.

This is typical Republican Bullshit. When they are in power, they do whatever they want, and tell everyone to [*]f**k off. If the Dems try to do the same, the Republicans all start crying like three year olds about how mean and unfair the dems are.
Sweet...

Sounds like you've been drinking...

Let's play, post a reply, take a shot.

My turn. First of all, I've NEVER rationalized or apologized for Tom Delay. He's as bad as any Donk I've vilified in my posts. These gerrymandering wars NEVER benefit the government's ability to perform it's functions, nor in the long run, either party or the political process.

Don't forget, Jon...I've been living through these wars since the '80's when King Gerrymanderer Willie ran the process here in CA. I've seen the damage done, which I'm sure is why no other President in the past has allowed the process to be removed from Commerce's purveyance.

Chivas on the rocks. Cheers!
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California Hits Double Digit Unemployment

Post by travelinman67 »

California's unemployment jumped 1.6% in January to push it into double digits, 10.1%, with prospects for significant increases in the next few months, the highest rates in 26 years...

http://www.edd.ca.gov/About_EDD/pdf/urate200902.pdf
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Re: As Goes California...

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Re: As Goes California...

Post by houndawg »

travelinman67 wrote:
D1B wrote: Tman, what are your thoughts on balancing the interests of industry with the need to protect the environment?
Great question, and one of the toughest.

First, there's a reason for the EIR. But the logical outcome, balanced mitigation, has in effect vanished. Due to litigious environmental activists, the purpose of the EIR has been nullified.

Originally, there were usually draft EIR's, working EIR's and the final, which was, of course, still open to discussion, negotiation and appeal. In it's original concept, however, the EIR had a fixed timeline which forced each "side" into "producing the goods" or dropping their objection. I know this for fact, as I participated in two EIR projects in CA in the mid-80's, one for a new state prison, and another for a large residential development. The "rules" to the game were simple, and admin. judges had little regard for participants who sought "exceptions". Moreso, participants who acted capriciously to delay finalization, could be held liable for the business/builder/project owner's losses. Again, I know that for fact as my employer at the time, a CA city govt., paid a $1.7m settlement for delaying a project due to the City Manager's zealous attempts to extort a water treatment plant expansion from the developer.
But, the reason I underline the EIR, is it has become nothing more than another tool of delay for anti-development and/or environmental organizations, and rarely does the EIR "finalize" the environmental review. To fix this problem, government needs to once again take a hardline stance to enforce the purpose of the EIR, with judges backing up that intent with firm decisions preventing the use of the EIR as merely another tool of delay/obstruction.

Secondly, mitigation needs to come back to reality. In CA, the paradigm of "environmental mitigation" has followed the path of "serial criminal"...no punishment is severe enough. dbackjon recently cited the current revised costs of constructing the Auburn Dam, $6-10 billion. What he DIDN'T discuss, is what was included in that "revised cost"... note pages 35 through 37...benefits and costs...

Auburn-Folsom South Unit Special Report: Cost-Benefit Update

The actual revised cost to construct the dam (field costs) is $3.76 billion to which the engineer's estimate added 20% for "unlisted item" and another 20% for contingencies. Total "contract cost": $5.42 billion. Now, before I go on, having been and taught estimating for years, I usually used 8% for unlisted items and 17% for contingencies (pretty standard norms for construction in CA), but I won't quibble about their figures, although IMHO I feel that 15% additional is unsupported by industry practice.
Moving on to "Non-Contract" costs (ahem, "mitigation" expenses...)
Table TS - 7
Project Non-Contract Costs
Description Amount...................($ millions)
Lands and Rights
Reservoir Take-Line.........................$ 38.0
Environmental Mitigation Lands............$ 2,320.0
Major Highway Relocations..................$ 22.0
Environmental Mitigation....................$ 1,480.0
Environmental Compliance and Planning...$ 15.0
Engineering and Design......................$ 100.0
Construction Management ..................$ 200.0
Total Non-Contract Costs....................$ 4,175.0

Now, subtracting the Take-Line surveying/engineering, highway relocation, Eng.& Design and CM costs of $360 million, the "environmental mitigation" costs total $3.815 billion, or approximately an amount equal to the actual "hard" field costs of constructing the dam: In effect a one-to-one ratio for environmental mitigation, which in effect DOUBLES THE ACTUAL COST OF CONSTRUCTION.

It's this degree of draconian, nonsensical, punitive "mitigation" which has placed environmentalism on a direct collision course with our nation's economic interests. Remembering, that no other country on the planet assesses this extent of punitive "fee" upon their businesses or infrastructure developments, and up until 35 years ago (about the time the U.S. GDP started heading into the sh!tter), neither did the United States.

Third, regulatory imposition of environmental retrofitting/remediation, absent cost-benefit studies. I can cite more examples of thoughtless regulatory penalties and post-completion retrofitting than we have time for, but I'll reference two as example:

In the past twenty years, CA has instituted a licensing and testing requirement for most bakeries, coffee roasting facilities, oil and gas processing/dispensing facilities, dry cleaners, drive-through fast food restaurants, and even wineries. If the local air-quality district determines that the facility is emitting pollutants exceeding their regional limits, they'll require the business to add emissions "scrubbers" which often cost upward of $500k and more. For small mom and pop businesses, that's a door-shutting cost that cannot be absorbed. Most notable is that the "standards" applied by each air-quality district can exceed the State Air Resources Board "standards", and often do. What results, is businesses relocating to counties with minimal emissions levels, or in some cases, exporting their raw products out of state (NV and AZ) for processing (cleaners, even wineries are shipping bulk juice out of state for fermentation, then returning the bulk fermented wine to CA for storage, packaging and marketing). Note that in the end, the increased regulatory requirements do not eliminate the targeted emission, but only end up adding to the cost of the finished product.
Additionally, the emissions monitoring has become a wellspring of penalty revenues for the government (which is IMHO, the REAL goal...). It is not uncommon for large (read: "deep pocket") businesses to receive fines of $100k to $1M for failure to comply with ARB (Air Resource Board) regulations. Some of these heinous offenses include selling VOC containing windshield washer fluid, which is APPROVED for use in mountain regions of CA, in regions where it IS NOT approved for use. For example, if Ace Hardware, or Sears or PepBoys in Sacramento sells a gallon of "mountain" approved washer fluid to some consumer who is preparing for a trip to the mountains that weekend (...representative of about 80% of every person in the Sierra's on the weekend), then Sears can be fined $600,000... http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/nr102708.htm
Ace Hardware can be fined $850,000... http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/nr010708.htm.
Any business that maintains a "fleet" of diesel powered vehicles, regardless of the number of vehicles (a plumbing contractor with two diesel service vans is subject) is required to annually test every vehicle for "smoke opacity", utilizing a computerized system tied into an ARB reporting program. Violation of that requirement, whether failure to test, inadequate documentation, use of unapproved or unregistered testing equipment, or delinquency in testing or reporting, FREQUENTLY results in fines of $10k to $500k and the list of offenders reads like a who's who of big business in CA. Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, Waste Management, Sears, UPS/Fed Ex, Brinks, Farmer John Packing, Western Farms Packing, CK Trucking, Airgas, Bimbo Bakeries (distribution)...and yes, even Jesse James of West Coast Choppers gets fined $271,000 for building all those cool choppers... http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/nr012607.htm ...and on and on and on...

...adding insult to injury, the whackjob that runs the ARB in CA, Mary Nichols, is an unabashed slash and burn environmental attorney who got her start under Governor Moonbeam back in the '70's and has earned her reputation as the most heavy handed environmental regulator in the U.S...in fact, in polls amongst environmental groups, she was the first choice to head Obama's EPA. And with the CA leftislature handing her an annual gross budget of $1.5 BILLION, she can cause a lot of damage to CA state businesses.

Now...

Assuming you're still awake...

...the point of this third issue is that facing the prospect of revenue generation via draconian punitive enforcement of environmental law, or implementation of "cap and trade" extortion schemes, cash strapped government bodies at the federal and state level have found this venue too enticing to step back and view the long-term ramifications to economic development and trade. Which is one of the primary reasons why CA and the U.S. as a whole is in the position we face today.

Finally, as with anything, D1B, the concept of "mitigation" needs to be studied with a prudent eye towards "balancing" the needs of businesses and economic survival with the duty to preserve and protect the environment. One cannot drive the value of one or the other to an extreme, yet, that is what is happening today, with catastrophic economic results, which have begun to be manifested in not only decreased quality of life, but severe personal economic hardships for lower and middle class Americans. Jon continually accuses me of "blaming the environment for everything", and to some degree that is true. But for the unrealistic imposition of financial burdens, resulting from unchecked environmental "mitigation" and harassing, obstructionist litigation, placed on business and infrastructure development and maintenance, our country's employers (IMHO) could afford to pay a living wage to most workers, alleviating much of the cry for unionization and benefits. Moreso, with a living wage and a healthy economy, workers could afford their sometimes "excessive" mortgages, thus minimizing much of this current housing/foreclosure crisis we face.

IMHO.

It's a gray area, but the path we're on is destined to destroy our country.
Try to at least a little unbiased, T-man.

Those of us native to CA and old enough to remember know that the Auburn Dam would cover the state's finest naked swimming and dope smoking area. Of course we also remember "Governor Moonbeam" as the guy who reduced Ronald Reagan's largest-in-the-history-of-the-state tax increase and still left the state with a cash surplus. Probably before your time. Carry on.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

houndawg wrote:Try to at least a little unbiased, T-man.

Those of us native to CA and old enough to remember know that the Auburn Dam would cover the state's finest naked swimming and dope smoking area. Of course we also remember "Governor Moonbeam" as the guy who reduced Ronald Reagan's largest-in-the-history-of-the-state tax increase and still left the state with a cash surplus. Probably before your time. Carry on.
How can you suggest "bias" is a concern to you, then defend Jerry Brown, arguably one of the least competent politicians who ever set up shop in CA...the guy is a SoCal carpetbagger who's fleeced Californians for YEARS...and as governor, balanced the budget by cancelling infrastructure projects and laying off the higher paid professionals in state agencies. Plus, don't forget that the "cash cow" managed by Jesse Unruh, and traditionally always "managed" by Democrat Treasurers, has been the honeypot of the Dems to curry support from the banking and insurance industry...most were discrete, but in recent times Angelides wasn't careful and left a paper trail chronicling decades of abuse. There was a reason Jerry wanted the cash surplus and it wasn't fiscal prudence.

But your bias REALLY shows when you mention the Foresthill Gorge. On a windy day, I can stand on my roof and come close to pissing down into the gorge and on the Hwy 49 bridge. I've spent A LOT of time down there, and I believe your Hwy 80/Rocklin bias is clouding your judgement. Every good foothiller knows the best clothing optional places are between Chili Bar and Lotus, along the South Fork. Virtually lived on that river during the summer when I wasn't working. With the exception of one time when someone got into our cars and stole our clothes, including the nicest pair of wafflestompers I have ever owned (even to this day). If I had a dollar for every time we were rafting and were "offered" a pair of "passing" titties along the shore, then futiley attempted to paddle upstream...we succeeded a few times...
The north fork was a hangout for the CHP out of the Bowman Rd. office...used to ticket the daylights out of us for parking along the highway, equipment violations, etc...they were SOB's. So, North Fork for me has always been limited to the Auburn locals or the weekend warriors from the Bay Area.
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by houndawg »

travelinman67 wrote:
houndawg wrote:Try to at least a little unbiased, T-man.

Those of us native to CA and old enough to remember know that the Auburn Dam would cover the state's finest naked swimming and dope smoking area. Of course we also remember "Governor Moonbeam" as the guy who reduced Ronald Reagan's largest-in-the-history-of-the-state tax increase and still left the state with a cash surplus. Probably before your time. Carry on.
How can you suggest "bias" is a concern to you, then defend Jerry Brown, arguably one of the least competent politicians who ever set up shop in CA...the guy is a SoCal carpetbagger who's fleeced Californians for YEARS...and as governor, balanced the budget by cancelling infrastructure projects and laying off the higher paid professionals in state agencies. Plus, don't forget that the "cash cow" managed by Jesse Unruh, and traditionally always "managed" by Democrat Treasurers, has been the honeypot of the Dems to curry support from the banking and insurance industry...most were discrete, but in recent times Angelides wasn't careful and left a paper trail chronicling decades of abuse. There was a reason Jerry wanted the cash surplus and it wasn't fiscal prudence.

But your bias REALLY shows when you mention the Foresthill Gorge. On a windy day, I can stand on my roof and come close to pissing down into the gorge and on the Hwy 49 bridge. I've spent A LOT of time down there, and I believe your Hwy 80/Rocklin bias is clouding your judgement. Every good foothiller knows the best clothing optional places are between Chili Bar and Lotus, along the South Fork. Virtually lived on that river during the summer when I wasn't working. With the exception of one time when someone got into our cars and stole our clothes, including the nicest pair of wafflestompers I have ever owned (even to this day). If I had a dollar for every time we were rafting and were "offered" a pair of "passing" titties along the shore, then futiley attempted to paddle upstream...we succeeded a few times...
The north fork was a hangout for the CHP out of the Bowman Rd. office...used to ticket the daylights out of us for parking along the highway, equipment violations, etc...they were SOB's. So, North Fork for me has always been limited to the Auburn locals or the weekend warriors from the Bay Area.
SoCal carpetbagger my ass. Brown was born in San Francisco, went to high school there, and college at Santa Clara. Since you can't even get that right, it's no surprise that you are wrong about the best naked swimming on the American River. Things may have changed, but in the heyday of 67-74 the North Fork was the place and the cops were never seen; South Fork was where you went if you needed to buy some heroin and didn't have any references. You had to be careful there or somebody would steal all of your shit......oh, that's right, you know that already.......
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by travelinman67 »

houndawg wrote:SoCal carpetbagger my ass. Brown was born in San Francisco, went to high school there, and college at Santa Clara. Since you can't even get that right, it's no surprise that you are wrong about the best naked swimming on the American River. Things may have changed, but in the heyday of 67-74 the North Fork was the place and the cops were never seen; South Fork was where you went if you needed to buy some heroin and didn't have any references. You had to be careful there or somebody would steal all of your shit......oh, that's right, you know that already.......
A) Once again, you haven't done your homework. Jerry was born in SF and received primary ed there, then left CA to attend Yale...
After law school, Brown worked as a law clerk for Supreme Court of CaliforniaJustice Mathew Tobriner, and studied in Mexico and Latin America.

Legal career and entrance into politics
Brown returned to California but initially failed the state bar exam.[2] After passing the exam, Brown settled in Los Angeles and joined the law firm of Tuttle & Taylor. In the late 1960s, he entered politics by organizing migrant workers and anti-Vietnam War groups. In 1969, he ran for the newly created Los Angeles Community College Board of Trustees, which oversaw community colleges in the city, and placed first in a field of 124.
In 1970, Brown was elected California Secretary of State. Brown used the position, which was historically limited in power, to bring lawsuits against corporations such as Standard Oil of California, International Telephone and Telegraph, Gulf Oil, and Mobil for violation of campaign-finance laws and argued in person before the California Supreme Court.
B) Your 7 years of experience in CA about a river one mile from my house I've lived in, on and off, for 31 years hardly withstands any credibility tests.

...and BTW...the junkies were up on the Bear River...they lived in Grass Valley. You don't know sh@t.

Go smoke some more dope while listening to your Obama Campaign Speeches mp3
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Re: As Goes California...

Post by houndawg »

travelinman67 wrote:
houndawg wrote:SoCal carpetbagger my ass. Brown was born in San Francisco, went to high school there, and college at Santa Clara. Since you can't even get that right, it's no surprise that you are wrong about the best naked swimming on the American River. Things may have changed, but in the heyday of 67-74 the North Fork was the place and the cops were never seen; South Fork was where you went if you needed to buy some heroin and didn't have any references. You had to be careful there or somebody would steal all of your shit......oh, that's right, you know that already.......
A) Once again, you haven't done your homework. Jerry was born in SF and received primary ed there, then left CA to attend Yale...
After law school, Brown worked as a law clerk for Supreme Court of CaliforniaJustice Mathew Tobriner, and studied in Mexico and Latin America.

Legal career and entrance into politics
Brown returned to California but initially failed the state bar exam.[2] After passing the exam, Brown settled in Los Angeles and joined the law firm of Tuttle & Taylor. In the late 1960s, he entered politics by organizing migrant workers and anti-Vietnam War groups. In 1969, he ran for the newly created Los Angeles Community College Board of Trustees, which oversaw community colleges in the city, and placed first in a field of 124.
In 1970, Brown was elected California Secretary of State. Brown used the position, which was historically limited in power, to bring lawsuits against corporations such as Standard Oil of California, International Telephone and Telegraph, Gulf Oil, and Mobil for violation of campaign-finance laws and argued in person before the California Supreme Court.
B) Your 7 years of experience in CA about a river one mile from my house I've lived in, on and off, for 31 years hardly withstands any credibility tests.

...and BTW...the junkies were up on the Bear River...they lived in Grass Valley. You don't know sh@t.

Go smoke some more dope while listening to your Obama Campaign Speeches mp3
Your bad.

(A) JB went to law school at Yale. He began college at Santa Clara after being born and raised in the Bay Area and attending St. Ignatius high school. The point being that he is not from SoCal as stated by you, incorrectly, Yale Law School notwithstanding. It's common knowledge, T.

(B) Your 31 years, on and off, are the johnny-come-lately years after Placer County was already ruined by peckerwoods from places back east like New York and Montana. You were in diapers while I was working the area. Shit, I've been to the bottom of Hell Hole.
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