Gerrymandering: This is legal why?

[bluehenbillk]

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I expose one of the biggest frauds of the American political system today: Gerrymandering.

The USA is by far the biggest hypocrite on the globe sticking their noses into Russia's elections or any toher countries when parties in power do everything within their legal right to rig the next election in their favor.

I bring to the table as evidence to the tiny area known as Caln Twp, PA - population 14,000. This district will now be represented by the same amount of people as the city of Philadelphia - population 1.5 million. They'll have "more representation than cities like Pittsburgh, Allentown & Harrisburg. Why? Because it suits the GOP.

If voters are goign to be moved into different districts there should be a separate referendum to "changing the rules" on how elections work.

Otherwise, we're just the pot calling the kettle black when we bi-tch and moan about other countries election frauds - we're worse than anybody practically.

[andy7171]

It ain't just the GOP. Take a gander at Maryland's BS.

[GannonFan]

It's legal because both parties have been doing this crap since the country was established. This is what happens when partisans and political operatives have too much sway. Iowa is maybe one of the only states that has a half-way decent way of minimizing the politicization of redistricting - should make something like that a national mandate. I'd vote in a second for a guy that championed that cause.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

[bluehenbillk]

It's legal because both parties have been doing this crap since the country was established. This is what happens when partisans and political operatives have too much sway. Iowa is maybe one of the only states that has a half-way decent way of minimizing the politicization of redistricting - should make something like that a national mandate. I'd vote in a second for a guy that championed that cause.

What does Iowa do, and believe me, I wasn't singling out the GOP, as usual both parties are at fault.

[GannonFan]

It's legal because both parties have been doing this crap since the country was established. This is what happens when partisans and political operatives have too much sway. Iowa is maybe one of the only states that has a half-way decent way of minimizing the politicization of redistricting - should make something like that a national mandate. I'd vote in a second for a guy that championed that cause.

What does Iowa do, and believe me, I wasn't singling out the GOP, as usual both parties are at fault.

They have a committee do it - the person leading the group has to be fairly non-partisan (lots of requirements for what they couldn't have been in a past life), they are required to give importance to county lines and geographical boundaries, to try to keep urban and rural areas separate, and to generally have districts that "look" regular, so none of those weird, tortuous path type ones that you mentioned earlier. And then the courts get to judge whether what they come up with is good enough or not. Ain't perfect, and they go through several rounds, but it's still better than anything else out there.

[SuperHornet]

Don't blame the GOP alone for gerrymandering. BOTH parties do it. In fact, in Cali, until the "impartial" citizen's commission was in place to set up boundaries for 2012, almost all the gerrymandering favored the Donkeys.

[TheDancinMonarch]

What does Iowa do, and believe me, I wasn't singling out the GOP, as usual both parties are at fault.

They have a committee do it - the person leading the group has to be fairly non-partisan (lots of requirements for what they couldn't have been in a past life), they are required to give importance to county lines and geographical boundaries, to try to keep urban and rural areas separate, and to generally have districts that "look" regular, so none of those weird, tortuous path type ones that you mentioned earlier. And then the courts get to judge whether what they come up with is good enough or not. Ain't perfect, and they go through several rounds, but it's still better than anything else out there.

Great idea but it would never work in a state with a high minority percentage. When you have to carve out a "minority majority district" you end up with stuff like the Virginia Senate district that ran from the Atlantic to the mountains or the Virginia Congressional district that wends it way up the James River. And then those funny looking districts make the surrounding ones look funny.

[HI54UNI]

What does Iowa do, and believe me, I wasn't singling out the GOP, as usual both parties are at fault.

They have a committee do it - the person leading the group has to be fairly non-partisan (lots of requirements for what they couldn't have been in a past life), they are required to give importance to county lines and geographical boundaries, to try to keep urban and rural areas separate, and to generally have districts that "look" regular, so none of those weird, tortuous path type ones that you mentioned earlier. And then the courts get to judge whether what they come up with is good enough or not. Ain't perfect, and they go through several rounds, but it's still better than anything else out there.

You're close on your description. The non-partisan Legislative Service Bureau draws it up under the supervision of a 5 member non-partisan commission. Under Iowa law the commission is permitted to take only four factors into account in drawing district lines: population; contiguity; compactness; and existing boundaries of governmental units. The population of legislative districts must be equal; districts must form a single unit; districts must not be elongated or in other strange shapes; and to the extent possible districts should not divide cities or counties.

When a map is proposed it outlines the federal legislative districts as well as the districts for our state senators and representatives. The legislators have to vote approve the map with no changes. If they vote it down the map is redrawn by the LSB. The legislature then votes on the 2nd map with no changes. If they vote it down a third map is drawn that can be changed by the legislature. If after 3 maps they can't agree the courts will draw the map. I'm not sure if it has ever gotten to the third map, let alone letting the courts decide.

The way the map was drawn this last time 2 of our 3 D federal reps were thrown together in the same district and both our R reps were too. What actually happens is the legislature looks at the map and how it affects them. They may approve a map that works good for them but screws over the federal delegation. That's kind of what happened this last time.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Gerrymandering is a hoot - in PA it's especially egregious (there are other examples too)

Gerrymandering can backfire - in PA the GOP spreads themselves too thin frequently - in trying to create a ton of gop districts - they create marginal districts that can be won by dems in the right circumstances (PA 7 and PA 8 a few years ago)

As for "citizens commissions" it's tough... very few people who would have the needed knowledge to do a redistricting (which is hard as HELL) would be "independent" - it just doesn't run that way...

and SH - in CA the commission didn't do anything egregious... it turns out that Cali is a really blue state - and their map reflects that... you should count your blessings - I know operatives who have (as an exercise) drawn lines that would (if combined with a similar effort in NY) put the D's back in the majority just like that.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Some of my favorite gerrymanders:

AZ-2


TX-19


TX-21


IL-4 (my personal favorite)


IL-17


NY-28


FL-3


NC-3


NC-12

[bulldog10jw]

Some of my favorite gerrymanders:

AZ-2

That's my district. I'm at the furthest point south in the district. It has to be 250 miles at least up to the Utah border.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Some of my favorite gerrymanders:

AZ-2

That's my district. I'm at the furthest point south in the district. It has to be 250 miles at least up to the Utah border.

the most clever gerrymander is in the south - and how it divides up part of the Phoenix area... but the oddity of the map (which exists to keep the two tribes from having to share a district) is what draws the eye

[biobengal]

As for "citizens commissions" it's tough... very few people who would have the needed knowledge to do a redistricting (which is hard as HELL) would be "independent" - it just doesn't run that way...

Not as tough as some would have you believe. I do a fair bit of work with geographic information systems; this program was designed for situations such as this. Their are clearly described programs which weigh factors (ethnicity, population density, median salary, distance to center of district, etc.) and converge on a solution which minimizes of maximized different factors. The program can include operators which minimize the perimeter/area ratio, take account of natural barriers and include (or not) ethnicities, etc. No, not hard... just lacking in political will.

Great example of GIS in the redistricting process: http://www.redistrictingthenation.com/services.aspx

[SuperHornet]

Gerrymandering is a hoot - in PA it's especially egregious (there are other examples too)

Gerrymandering can backfire - in PA the GOP spreads themselves too thin frequently - in trying to create a ton of gop districts - they create marginal districts that can be won by dems in the right circumstances (PA 7 and PA 8 a few years ago)

As for "citizens commissions" it's tough... very few people who would have the needed knowledge to do a redistricting (which is hard as HELL) would be "independent" - it just doesn't run that way...

and SH - in CA the commission didn't do anything egregious... it turns out that Cali is a really blue state - and their map reflects that... you should count your blessings - I know operatives who have (as an exercise) drawn lines that would (if combined with a similar effort in NY) put the D's back in the majority just like that.

If you thought I was blaming the commission, I apologize. Sure, I had issues with the initial maps (because they placed my area in the valley with the Bay Area, where the people are not like us and outnumber us). That was fixed before they were certified. My point was about how bad the situation was BEFORE the commission was instituted.

BTW, labeling CA as "blue" is an egregious exaggeration. That's due to the population over-influence of two areas (LA and SF). The Central Valley and San Diego are distinctly GOP, and the Donkeys in the past have done everything in their power to force LA/SF views on the rest of us. The commission has done quite a bit to fix that. No system is perfect, though.

[hank scorpio]

Check out all of those squiggly lines as the West end of my district!

[Wedgebuster]

A lot less political confusion down in Wyoming than you find up in Wyoming's Hat regions-



Same exact number of congressional districts, sans the squiggley lines and other clutter.

Besides, you want bat shit crazy man, check out Cynthia Lummis, our congressperson following along in Barbara Cubin and Dick Cheney's footsteps!

[Grizalltheway]

A lot less political confusion down in Wyoming than you find up in Wyoming's Hat regions-



Same exact number of congressional districts, sans the squiggley lines and other clutter.

Besides, you want bat shit crazy man, check out Cynthia Lummis, our congressperson following along in Barbara Cubin and Dick Cheney's footsteps!

What, they don't have counties in Montana's septic tank?

[Wedgebuster]

A lot less political confusion down in Wyoming than you find up in Wyoming's Hat regions-



Same exact number of congressional districts, sans the squiggley lines and other clutter.

Besides, you want bat shit crazy man, check out Cynthia Lummis, our congressperson following along in Barbara Cubin and Dick Cheney's footsteps!

What, they don't have counties in Montana's septic tank?

Son, Montana is downstream from Wyoming, never forget the number one rule in plumbing.

[hank scorpio]

Son, Montana is downstream from Wyoming, never forget the number one rule in plumbing.

So that's what the smell is.

[Wedgebuster]

Son, Montana is downstream from Wyoming, never forget the number one rule in plumbing.

So that's what the smell is.

You're thinking of the number 2 rule here.

[93henfan]

It ain't just the GOP. Take a gander at Maryland's BS.

This.

Maryland's 1st District always cracks me up. They take the most conservative part of Maryland (the entire Eastern Shore) and then pluck some tiny specks of the most densely populated, most liberal areas to completely wipe out (or at least neutralize) an entire voting block in half the geographic area of the state.

To pair Severna Park and Salisbury is absolutely hilarious if you know the two populations well.

[Ivytalk]

It ain't just the GOP. Take a gander at Maryland's BS.

This.

Maryland's 1st District always cracks me up. They take the most conservative part of Maryland (the entire Eastern Shore) and then pluck some tiny specks of the most densely populated, most liberal areas to completely wipe out (or at least neutralize) an entire voting block in half the geographic area of the state.

To pair Severna Park and Salisbury is absolutely hilarious if you know the two populations well.

And I predict DE will add a second Congressional district in my lifetime. "Below the Canal" will have its own seat, as it should be.

[AZGrizFan]

Some of my favorite gerrymanders:

AZ-2

That's my district. I'm at the furthest point south in the district. It has to be 250 miles at least up to the Utah border.

Well, it makes perfect sense, Bulldog. You folks in Goodyear & Surprise have SOOOO much in common with the Navajo nation.

[JohnStOnge]

It ain't just the GOP. Take a gander at Maryland's BS.

I'll say. One of the biggest factors in "gerrymandering" in this country is officially sanctioned effort to create majority minority districts. What I mean by that is that they will draw some of the wierdest lines you'll ever see in order to ensure that there are "enough" Black majority districts.

I've often wondered, when I've seen that, why we don't just drop the idea of electing representatives by State or county and instead elect them by ethnic group.