Grizzers, What's The Latest On the Sexual Assault Tumult?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Thanks for the clarification on "dynasty". How does 19 conference championships fit into the equation? Depends on your context, I guess.

Point is, many non-Griz fans thought (hoped) this whole shitstorm would send the program into a tailspin that would take years to recover from. Hell, a lot of Griz fans thought that too. Of course, it remains to be seen exactly how it will affect the program, but the sense I get right now is that the effect will be fairly minimal and that the Griz will be in the thick of the Big Sky and national title race again next season. As usual. Dynasty or not.

Well, what do you disagree with?

Two national titles is short of a national dynasty. 19 Big Sky Championships is exceptionally adept at Big Sky Dynasty which is primarily the people he was addressing in his comment. I guess words really don't matter if you can't follow the context of the conversation.

Your bitterness is well founded though.

[grizcountry420]

Montana > UNC

[BigSkyBears]

Montana > UNC

Yup

[EWURanger]

The funny, if not slightly tragic, thing about this whole ordeal is that there's still Montana fans demanding to know why the AD and HC were fired.

Isn't it painfully obvious?

It is and it isn't though. Obviously they were fired in relation to the sexual assaults, alleged and not. But we don't know if they were fired simply because they kept happening, because (perceived) appropriate punishment wasn't doled out, or if there was a collective sweeping under the rug.

Perception is reality. And besides, what you're saying would be true if it were just the sexual assault allegations. I imagine all the DUI's and other various shenanigans had something to do with the decision as well.


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[Grizalltheway]

It is and it isn't though. Obviously they were fired in relation to the sexual assaults, alleged and not. But we don't know if they were fired simply because they kept happening, because (perceived) appropriate punishment wasn't doled out, or if there was a collective sweeping under the rug.

Perception is reality. And besides, what you're saying would be true if it were just the sexual assault allegations. I imagine all the DUI's and other various shenanigans had something to do with the decision as well.


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Plenty of shit (including armed robbery and a murder charge) went down under Hauck, and he never got the ax. Different prez, though...and he was a turd, IMO.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

It is and it isn't though. Obviously they were fired in relation to the sexual assaults, alleged and not. But we don't know if they were fired simply because they kept happening, because (perceived) appropriate punishment wasn't doled out, or if there was a collective sweeping under the rug.

Perception is reality. And besides, what you're saying would be true if it were just the sexual assault allegations. I imagine all the DUI's and other various shenanigans had something to do with the decision as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perception isn't reality. When none of this stuff was going on there were still a lot of dipshits calling Montana the Evil Empire and making up stories of how and why they were always second fiddle.

Reality is reality and SE came pretty close to it as far as I can see.

Don't you have something to do with EWU as far as administration or academics goes? I might be confusing ya with another but let's pretend if not. Should RA's & Administrators begin answering for the actions of students if they are on partial or full scholly? Gonna be a lot of firings out there.

What is the DUI rate and other crime rates as compared to the rest of the student body?

Now, all that being said, I don't have a problem with it because there could be more to the story that we don't know yet and even if is just what we see on the surface it may have been time to take steps that seem drastic to some to curtail any more of the shooting from the hip type of thing. Yeah there was a pun in there, so what?

[EWURanger]

Perception is reality. And besides, what you're saying would be true if it were just the sexual assault allegations. I imagine all the DUI's and other various shenanigans had something to do with the decision as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perception isn't reality. When none of this stuff was going on there were still a lot of dipshits calling Montana the Evil Empire and making up stories of how and why they were always second fiddle.

Reality is reality and SE came pretty close to it as far as I can see.

Don't you have something to do with EWU as far as administration or academics goes? I might be confusing ya with another but let's pretend if not. Should RA's & Administrators begin answering for the actions of students if they are on partial or full scholly? Gonna be a lot of firings out there.

What is the DUI rate and other crime rates as compared to the rest of the student body?

Now, all that being said, I don't have a problem with it because there could be more to the story that we don't know yet and even if is just what we see on the surface it may have been time to take steps that seem drastic to some to curtail any more of the shooting from the hip type of thing. Yeah there was a pun in there, so what?

Ursus - nope, not officially connected to the University other than being an alum and having some other close ties that I won't go into here.

But to answer your question - yes, I do believe that Administrators/Coaches should answer for the actions of student-athletes if they are on scholarship. Hell, I would argue that the same would be true of any student-athlete, not just those on scholarship. And I understand that these guys aren't always going to be angels and there are always going to be your "oh shits" in every program, but these kids are in many cases receiving a free education in exchange for representing the University on the field. So in that sense, the DUI rate or percentages of kids getting in trouble in relation to the general student body is irrelevant. The general student population isn't representing the institution in the same capacity as student-athletes are and aren't placed under the same scrutiny. It goes with the territory - you don't want to follow team rules or the law, no one's forcing you to be a student athlete, and I don't think it's unrealistic to have those expectations.

In my opinion, it's less about the punishment being dealt out when an offense is committed, and more about the environment you're creating as an institution/program. It's about leadership - and I honestly believe that when you create a culture in your individual sphere of influence where stupid shit is less tolerated, you end up with fewer problems. I think the AD and HC failed, at least to an extent, to create this kind of culture. When you add up all the run-ins with the law over the past several years, whether charges were ever filed or not, it is quite a hefty list. And minor punishments being doled out such as missing a quarter of play against a DII opponent in a game that doesn't matter doesn't help things. Just using that as an example, but this is where perception does, in fact, matter.

I seriously doubt the recent developments have any kind of lasting effect on UM"s football program, and this isn't about jealousy or wanting to see Montana fail. I could honestly care less...but I think that most folks who have been watching this thing as an outsider would say that it's clear some changes needed to be made. I'm not sure of any organization, whether it's business or government, where there isn't some culpability in relation to the people in charge and the actions of their subordinates or people they oversee.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Perception isn't reality. When none of this stuff was going on there were still a lot of dipshits calling Montana the Evil Empire and making up stories of how and why they were always second fiddle.

Reality is reality and SE came pretty close to it as far as I can see.

Don't you have something to do with EWU as far as administration or academics goes? I might be confusing ya with another but let's pretend if not. Should RA's & Administrators begin answering for the actions of students if they are on partial or full scholly? Gonna be a lot of firings out there.

What is the DUI rate and other crime rates as compared to the rest of the student body?

Now, all that being said, I don't have a problem with it because there could be more to the story that we don't know yet and even if is just what we see on the surface it may have been time to take steps that seem drastic to some to curtail any more of the shooting from the hip type of thing. Yeah there was a pun in there, so what?

Ursus - nope, not officially connected to the University other than being an alum and having some other close ties that I won't go into here.

But to answer your question - yes, I do believe that Administrators/Coaches should answer for the actions of student-athletes if they are on scholarship. Hell, I would argue that the same would be true of any student-athlete, not just those on scholarship. And I understand that these guys aren't always going to be angels and there are always going to be your "oh shits" in every program, but these kids are in many cases receiving a free education in exchange for representing the University on the field. So in that sense, the DUI rate or percentages of kids getting in trouble in relation to the general student body is irrelevant. The general student population isn't representing the institution in the same capacity as student-athletes are and aren't placed under the same scrutiny. It goes with the territory - you don't want to follow team rules or the law, no one's forcing you to be a student athlete, and I don't think it's unrealistic to have those expectations.

In my opinion, it's less about the punishment being dealt out when an offense is committed, and more about the environment you're creating as an institution/program. It's about leadership - and I honestly believe that when you create a culture in your individual sphere of influence where stupid shit is less tolerated, you end up with fewer problems. I think the AD and HC failed, at least to an extent, to create this kind of culture. When you add up all the run-ins with the law over the past several years, whether charges were ever filed or not, it is quite a hefty list. And minor punishments being doled out such as missing a quarter of play against a DII opponent in a game that doesn't matter doesn't help things. Just using that as an example, but this is where perception does, in fact, matter.

I seriously doubt the recent developments have any kind of lasting effect on UM"s football program, and this isn't about jealousy or wanting to see Montana fail. I could honestly care less...but I think that most folks who have been watching this thing as an outsider would say that it's clear some changes needed to be made. I'm not sure of any organization, whether it's business or government, where there isn't some culpability in relation to the people in charge and the actions of their subordinates or people they oversee.

Here's the thing, I was not talking about athletes. I was referring to scholarships of the academic variety. Nobody gives a flying fuck about those or has any sort of perception about that shit.

You can say that because they get an athletic scholarship they owe it back, but as far as Montana Football goes they are part of a good revenue stream that does indeed pay it back. Not saying it shouldn't be fixed but let's try and be honest that we only look at certain things with a more discriminating eye because it serves our purpose.

I don't have the numbers I'm just dealing with the concept that crimes happen. Young people do dumb shit. I wonder how the normal amount of DUI's, fights, robberies, etc. compare to what we feel some need to point out and go AH HA!

Especially since we seem to think that young men, playing in one of the most violent games we have, should be above reproach. It would be nice but it sure as hell isn't reality. Coaches & AD's are held responsible which makes sense if they actively are concealing or covering something up. Doesn't make quite as much sense if not because the vast majority of the kids are not doing this. If that reflects what is going in the rest of the student body then it quite possibly has zero to do with them.

I agree with much of your second paragraph btw and I do believe that it has something to do with it all coming down as it did. Perception is opinion though, not fact.

[SDHornet]

And EWURanger smashes the hanging curve ball out of the park!!!

[EWURanger]

Ursus - nope, not officially connected to the University other than being an alum and having some other close ties that I won't go into here.

But to answer your question - yes, I do believe that Administrators/Coaches should answer for the actions of student-athletes if they are on scholarship. Hell, I would argue that the same would be true of any student-athlete, not just those on scholarship. And I understand that these guys aren't always going to be angels and there are always going to be your "oh shits" in every program, but these kids are in many cases receiving a free education in exchange for representing the University on the field. So in that sense, the DUI rate or percentages of kids getting in trouble in relation to the general student body is irrelevant. The general student population isn't representing the institution in the same capacity as student-athletes are and aren't placed under the same scrutiny. It goes with the territory - you don't want to follow team rules or the law, no one's forcing you to be a student athlete, and I don't think it's unrealistic to have those expectations.

In my opinion, it's less about the punishment being dealt out when an offense is committed, and more about the environment you're creating as an institution/program. It's about leadership - and I honestly believe that when you create a culture in your individual sphere of influence where stupid **** is less tolerated, you end up with fewer problems. I think the AD and HC failed, at least to an extent, to create this kind of culture. When you add up all the run-ins with the law over the past several years, whether charges were ever filed or not, it is quite a hefty list. And minor punishments being doled out such as missing a quarter of play against a DII opponent in a game that doesn't matter doesn't help things. Just using that as an example, but this is where perception does, in fact, matter.

I seriously doubt the recent developments have any kind of lasting effect on UM"s football program, and this isn't about jealousy or wanting to see Montana fail. I could honestly care less...but I think that most folks who have been watching this thing as an outsider would say that it's clear some changes needed to be made. I'm not sure of any organization, whether it's business or government, where there isn't some culpability in relation to the people in charge and the actions of their subordinates or people they oversee.

Here's the thing, I was not talking about athletes. I was referring to scholarships of the academic variety. Nobody gives a flying **** about those or has any sort of perception about that ****.

You can say that because they get an athletic scholarship they owe it back, but as far as Montana Football goes they are part of a good revenue stream that does indeed pay it back. Not saying it shouldn't be fixed but let's try and be honest that we only look at certain things with a more discriminating eye because it serves our purpose.

I don't have the numbers I'm just dealing with the concept that crimes happen. Young people do dumb ****. I wonder how the normal amount of DUI's, fights, robberies, etc. compare to what we feel some need to point out and go AH HA!

Especially since we seem to think that young men, playing in one of the most violent games we have, should be above reproach. It would be nice but it sure as hell isn't reality. Coaches & AD's are held responsible which makes sense if they actively are concealing or covering something up. Doesn't make quite as much sense if not because the vast majority of the kids are not doing this. If that reflects what is going in the rest of the student body then it quite possibly has zero to do with them.

I agree with much of your second paragraph btw and I do believe that it has something to do with it all coming down as it did. Perception is opinion though, not fact.

Gotcha, I didn't realize you were talking about academic scholarships. I would argue that any kid on scholarship, whether it be athletic or academic, should be held to the same standard of accountability. Unfortunately, it would probably never happen that way because those kids aren't in the public eye the same way as athletes are, there aren't kids looking at them as role models, etc. It's not fair...but it is what it is. That said, I imagine one could probably argue the case that there aren't a lot of Rocket Scientists or Lit Majors on academic scholarship that are having run-ins with the law at the same frequency as athletes do.

It all boils down to discipline, both individually and collectively as an organization. And there are plenty of examples of kids at every level of collegiate athletics that are superior athletes, great students, and stay out of trouble. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that at least 90% of the Montana football team fits this description. It's the other 5-10% that should have been dealth with a heavy hand.

You can't always tell who the problem children are going to be when you're recruiting kids, and you don't get to be as succesful a program as UM has been for the last 20 or so years without rolling the dice, so I know there's always going to be a few turds. We've had a few throughout the years as well. But like I said before, I think a lot of that can be mitigated through strong leadership and setting a precident when shit does happen.


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[kalm]

I'm not sure of any organization, whether it's business or government, where there isn't some culpability in relation to the people in charge and the actions of their subordinates or people they oversee.

Barak Obama
Lloyd Blankfein


BTW, Montana is a dynasty.

[kittiekop]

Doesn't look like any real new news, just a continuation of everything everyone already knows. But its certainly a new angle I hadn't heard about before in this trainwreck:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-a ... 8e610.html

[clawman]

Filing of a complaint is by no measure an indication of guilt but generally implies some reason to believe there are or were problems.
http://missoulian.com/news/local/federa ... f887a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Here's the thing, I was not talking about athletes. I was referring to scholarships of the academic variety. Nobody gives a flying **** about those or has any sort of perception about that ****.

You can say that because they get an athletic scholarship they owe it back, but as far as Montana Football goes they are part of a good revenue stream that does indeed pay it back. Not saying it shouldn't be fixed but let's try and be honest that we only look at certain things with a more discriminating eye because it serves our purpose.

I don't have the numbers I'm just dealing with the concept that crimes happen. Young people do dumb ****. I wonder how the normal amount of DUI's, fights, robberies, etc. compare to what we feel some need to point out and go AH HA!

Especially since we seem to think that young men, playing in one of the most violent games we have, should be above reproach. It would be nice but it sure as hell isn't reality. Coaches & AD's are held responsible which makes sense if they actively are concealing or covering something up. Doesn't make quite as much sense if not because the vast majority of the kids are not doing this. If that reflects what is going in the rest of the student body then it quite possibly has zero to do with them.

I agree with much of your second paragraph btw and I do believe that it has something to do with it all coming down as it did. Perception is opinion though, not fact.

Gotcha, I didn't realize you were talking about academic scholarships. I would argue that any kid on scholarship, whether it be athletic or academic, should be held to the same standard of accountability. Unfortunately, it would probably never happen that way because those kids aren't in the public eye the same way as athletes are, there aren't kids looking at them as role models, etc. It's not fair...but it is what it is. That said, I imagine one could probably argue the case that there aren't a lot of Rocket Scientists or Lit Majors on academic scholarship that are having run-ins with the law at the same frequency as athletes do.

It all boils down to discipline, both individually and collectively as an organization. And there are plenty of examples of kids at every level of collegiate athletics that are superior athletes, great students, and stay out of trouble. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that at least 90% of the Montana football team fits this description. It's the other 5-10% that should have been dealth with a heavy hand.

You can't always tell who the problem children are going to be when you're recruiting kids, and you don't get to be as succesful a program as UM has been for the last 20 or so years without rolling the dice, so I know there's always going to be a few turds. We've had a few throughout the years as well. But like I said before, I think a lot of that can be mitigated through strong leadership and setting a precident when shit does happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No bone of contention here with this. Pretty much the way I feel but it does bug me that we tend to discriminate against the ball players when there are plenty of young kids at any given school getting into this same kind of tomfoolery. I knew two guys on academic scholarship that I went ot school with that were absolutely guilty of some of the things that are alleged against ballplayers.

Every program in the Big Sky gambles cuz we really don't have the luxury of not doing it. We're just the ones on a bit of a losing streak right now and I do think it has to do with a lack of discipline. I noticed it on the field immediately in 2010 and it is likely it carried over to off the field activity.

That's the best thing to come out of the firings in my mind. This shit got a promising coach and an AD fired so anyone better believe their ass is on the chopping block if they fuck up...which some likely will because they are young, bullet proof fella's as we all were.

[EWURanger]

Gotcha, I didn't realize you were talking about academic scholarships. I would argue that any kid on scholarship, whether it be athletic or academic, should be held to the same standard of accountability. Unfortunately, it would probably never happen that way because those kids aren't in the public eye the same way as athletes are, there aren't kids looking at them as role models, etc. It's not fair...but it is what it is. That said, I imagine one could probably argue the case that there aren't a lot of Rocket Scientists or Lit Majors on academic scholarship that are having run-ins with the law at the same frequency as athletes do.

It all boils down to discipline, both individually and collectively as an organization. And there are plenty of examples of kids at every level of collegiate athletics that are superior athletes, great students, and stay out of trouble. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that at least 90% of the Montana football team fits this description. It's the other 5-10% that should have been dealth with a heavy hand.

You can't always tell who the problem children are going to be when you're recruiting kids, and you don't get to be as succesful a program as UM has been for the last 20 or so years without rolling the dice, so I know there's always going to be a few turds. We've had a few throughout the years as well. But like I said before, I think a lot of that can be mitigated through strong leadership and setting a precident when **** does happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No bone of contention here with this. Pretty much the way I feel but it does bug me that we tend to discriminate against the ball players when there are plenty of young kids at any given school getting into this same kind of tomfoolery. I knew two guys on academic scholarship that I went ot school with that were absolutely guilty of some of the things that are alleged against ballplayers.

Every program in the Big Sky gambles cuz we really don't have the luxury of not doing it. We're just the ones on a bit of a losing streak right now and I do think it has to do with a lack of discipline. I noticed it on the field immediately in 2010 and it is likely it carried over to off the field activity.

That's the best thing to come out of the firings in my mind. This **** got a promising coach and an AD fired so anyone better believe their ass is on the chopping block if they **** up...which some likely will because they are young, bullet proof fella's as we all were.

Exactly, agreed 100%.


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[Cap'n Cat]

GF5...don't deal with him. He is a fucking tool and is worse than JBB, Opie, and Ralph Wallace all rolled into one.

Um, issue?

[Willie]

Like NDSU hasn't had their FAIR share of bad publicity in recent memory.

[Willie]

You Bison fans NEVER cease to amaze me (aside from Gil, TTBF, and one or two others).

Contradicting yourselves over and over and over. You guys hate MT so much, stay out of the threads. Same goes for any UND threads.

[Grizalltheway]

Update:

Sounds like Donaldson is going to take a plea deal in his SIWC case.

[polsongrizz]

Casualties? More firings? Court cases? Death penalty?

Not to mention the Dreaded Pee in the Butt Campaign.

[kalm]

Casualties? More firings? Court cases? Death penalty?

Not to mention the Dreaded Pee in the Butt Campaign.

Shit's getting' bad I hear...

[grizzaholic]

Not to mention the Dreaded Pee in the Butt Campaign.

Shit's getting' bad I hear...

Kalm, if you are going to post pics of black bears falling out of trees, at least post the ones from Missoula. God knows there have been enough.

[grizzaholic]

Here is one that fell out and landed on a trampoline and then bounced off.

[kalm]

Shit's getting' bad I hear...

Kalm, if you are going to post pics of black bears falling out of trees, at least post the ones from Missoula. God knows there have been enough.

Sssshhhhhh. The EC fellas thought it was funny.

[polsongrizz]

Kalm, if you are going to post pics of black bears falling out of trees, at least post the ones from Missoula. God knows there have been enough.

Sssshhhhhh. The EC fellas thought it was funny.

Sure they did....