Tiger Woods ------ It's Time!

[89Hen]

The fields of the 70's did not have the best players in the WORLD in them. That's the entire point; you could have a list of players like Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, Watson, etc... BECAUSE there wasn't as much great competition. Throw in 40 of the best international players and those guys don't have nearly as many titles between them.

Are you suggesting that there were other golfer overseas, the equivalent of Arnie, Watson etc that chose not to play in the open?

Yes. Same time period, 1962-1980 there were 7 non-US winners of The Open (compared to only 2 US Open) and MANY top 10 finishes by non-US players (the stats look like the ones I posted for the last 10 US Opens). Those players didn't come over for the US Open, nor the Masters, nor the PGA, nor regular PGA Tour stops.

Bottom line, the competition is MUCH tougher today than it was in the 70's.

[AZGrizFan]

I don't know if Tiger has ever played more than 20 Tour events in a season. I'd be willing to wager you that Nicklaus played in more Tour events in his first X number of years on tour (how many years has Tiger been on?).

BTW, the PGA Tour does NOT have 49 events. They don't play from mid-November through the Hawaii tourneys the second week of January and don't run events during the Masters or US Open, so unless there are 57 weeks in the year Obama, you're exaggerating.

I tried to find that number, but was unable. The 49 included the majors.

http://www.pgatour.com/2008/r/winners_a ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting to see the ebb and flow of the number of tour events each year....

Found it. Jack's career #'s:

Year Tourn Wins Win Pct
---- ----- ---- -------
1962 27 3 11.11%
1963 23 5 21.74%
1964 25 4 16.00%
1965 21 5 23.81%
1966 18 3 16.67%
1967 21 4 19.05%
1968 20 2 10.00%
1969 21 3 14.29%
1970 20 2 10.00%
1971 18 5 27.78%
1972 20 7 35.00%
1973 19 7 36.84%
1974 18 2 11.11%
1975 18 6 33.33%
1976 17 2 11.76%
1977 19 3 15.79%
1978 16 4 25.00%
1979 13 0 0.00%
1980 14 2 14.29%
1981 17 0 0.00%
1982 16 1 6.25%
1983 16 0 0.00%
1984 14 1 7.14%
1985 16 1 6.25%
1986 16 1 6.25%
1987 12 0 0.00%
1988 10 0 0.00%
1989 11 0 0.00%
1990 10 0 0.00%
----- --- --- ------
Total 506 73 14.43%

Tiger's career #'s

Year Tourn Wins Win Pct
---- ----- ---- -------
1996 8 2 25.00%
1997 21 4 19.05%
1998 20 1 5.00% *
1999 21 8 38.10%
2000 20 9 45.00%
2001 19 5 26.32%
2002 18 5 27.78%
2003 18 5 27.78%
2004 19 1 5.26% *
2005 21 6 28.57%
2006 11 4 36.36%
2007 16 7
2008 6 4
2009 16 6
2010 14 0
2011 10 0
2012 10 2
----- --- --- ------
Total 274 73 27%

[kalm]

Are you suggesting that there were other golfer overseas, the equivalent of Arnie, Watson etc that chose not to play in the open?

Yes. Same time period, 1962-1980 there were 7 non-US winners of The Open (compared to only 2 US Open) and MANY top 10 finishes by non-US players (the stats look like the ones I posted for the last 10 US Opens). Those players didn't come over for the US Open, nor the Masters, nor the PGA, nor regular PGA Tour stops.

Bottom line, the competition is MUCH tougher today than it was in the 70's.

That's one way to look at. But you could also make the point that there simply weren't that many good overseas players during that era. The Rider Cup record certainly reflects this and The Open was dominated during that time by the aforementioned multiple major winners that Jack had to face. So are there more good international players at all of the majors now? Of course. But we still haven't seen any one or two or three of them or any American golfers that have had the success that Watson and co. did against Jack - which was the original point made and which is still true.

[Gil Dobie]

Of the 18 Major's Jack won, 9 times an international player finished second.

The USA dominated the Ryder Cup, even though it was just against the Brits, during Nicklaus prime.

I'd like to know the names of some of the all-time great golfers from overseas that were the par of Watson, Palmer, Player etc.

[kalm]

Of the 18 Major's Jack won, 9 times an international player finished second.

The USA dominated the Ryder Cup, even though it was just against the Brits, during Nicklaus prime.

I'd like to know the names of some of the all-time great golfers from overseas that were the par of Watson, Palmer, Player etc.

Well, Player...

[dal4018]

LOL and conveniently forget that Tiger is tied with Jack on the all time PGA wins list for second.

And Tiger's prime rips Jack's prime a new one. Tiger in his prime was a freak of nature golf had never seen. Even if Tiger doesn't match Jack's Major Record, if he becomes the #1 all time PGA winner, a case can still be made for Tiger being the best golfer of all time.

I'm not sure how you can even make that statement with a straight face.

In order for Tiger to become the all time wins leader he must catch Sam Snead he has 82 Tiger and Jack are currently tied right now but that will not last long.

[93henfan]

Of the 18 Major's Jack won, 9 times an international player finished second.

The USA dominated the Ryder Cup, even though it was just against the Brits, during Nicklaus prime.

I'd like to know the names of some of the all-time great golfers from overseas that were the par of Watson, Palmer, Player etc.

Well, Player...

Yeah Player.

[kalm]

Well, Player...

Yeah Player.

[89Hen]

Of the 18 Major's Jack won, 9 times an international player finished second.

The USA dominated the Ryder Cup, even though it was just against the Brits, during Nicklaus prime.

I'd like to know the names of some of the all-time great golfers from overseas that were the par of Watson, Palmer, Player etc.

Tony Jacklin, Brian Barnes, Sam Torrance... but they didn't play NEARLY as many US Opens, Masters, PGA's and US tour events, so we'll never know if they were on par. Watson won 5 British, but so did Peter Thomson right before Tom did. The fact is, Watson was the last 4+ time winner and that was done in 1983. Harry Vardon won 6 times from 1896 - 1914 because there simply weren't as many good golfers playing in the event. Do you really think we'll see another 5-6 time winner? I think it's unlikely. I just don't see how anyone can say the competition was tougher in the 70's.

I'm not sure for who's benefit you're pointing out that an international player finshed tied for runner-up. To me that almost suggest that if there were more international players, Jack would have had a harder time winning, as would have Watson, Palmer and other US players... which is in fact my contention.

[89Hen]

BTW, just so nobody gets the wrong impression... Jack and Arnie were phenomenal golfers. Jack, Arnie and Tiger did tremendous things for the game, just in a different era. Given the chance to meet/play with Jack, Arnie or Tiger I'd pick Jack or Arnie any day of the week. I'm just surprised how many of you racist folks hate Tiger so much.

[ASUG8]

BTW, just so nobody gets the wrong impression... Jack and Arnie were phenomenal golfers. Jack, Arnie and Tiger did tremendous things for the game, just in a different era. Given the chance to meet/play with Jack, Arnie or Tiger I'd pick Jack or Arnie any day of the week. I'm just surprised how many of you racist folks hate Tiger so much.

Tiger makes it so easy to dislike him. Not many folks are as incapable of maintaining emotional control on a course when they have a bad shot than he is. I expect someone of his caliber to not throw or kick clubs around. Couple that with his overall indifference to fans that idolize him and it's a perfect storm of dislike.

[Gil Dobie]

Of the 18 Major's Jack won, 9 times an international player finished second.

The USA dominated the Ryder Cup, even though it was just against the Brits, during Nicklaus prime.

I'd like to know the names of some of the all-time great golfers from overseas that were the par of Watson, Palmer, Player etc.

Tony Jacklin, Brian Barnes, Sam Torrance... but they didn't play NEARLY as many US Opens, Masters, PGA's and US tour events, so we'll never know if they were on par. Watson won 5 British, but so did Peter Thomson right before Tom did. The fact is, Watson was the last 4+ time winner and that was done in 1983. Harry Vardon won 6 times from 1896 - 1914 because there simply weren't as many good golfers playing in the event. Do you really think we'll see another 5-6 time winner? I think it's unlikely. I just don't see how anyone can say the competition was tougher in the 70's.

I'm not sure for who's benefit you're pointing out that an international player finshed tied for runner-up. To me that almost suggest that if there were more international players, Jack would have had a harder time winning, as would have Watson, Palmer and other US players... which is in fact my contention.

I'm not talking just US Open, but all majors. Jack finished top 5, 17 times in the Britsh Open. How many all-time great golfers are there on the tour today, Woods, another level down Mickelson and who else? We don't know if these players would win more today, it's all opinion. It would be interesting to see the scores of today's golfers with 1965 model golf clubs or even 1920's wood shafterd clubs.

[ASUG8]

Tony Jacklin, Brian Barnes, Sam Torrance... but they didn't play NEARLY as many US Opens, Masters, PGA's and US tour events, so we'll never know if they were on par. Watson won 5 British, but so did Peter Thomson right before Tom did. The fact is, Watson was the last 4+ time winner and that was done in 1983. Harry Vardon won 6 times from 1896 - 1914 because there simply weren't as many good golfers playing in the event. Do you really think we'll see another 5-6 time winner? I think it's unlikely. I just don't see how anyone can say the competition was tougher in the 70's.

I'm not sure for who's benefit you're pointing out that an international player finshed tied for runner-up. To me that almost suggest that if there were more international players, Jack would have had a harder time winning, as would have Watson, Palmer and other US players... which is in fact my contention.

I'm not talking just US Open, but all majors. Jack finished top 5, 17 times in the Britsh Open. How many all-time great golfers are there on the tour today, Woods, another level down Mickelson and who else? We don't know if these players would win more today, it's all opinion. It would be interesting to see the scores of today's golfers with 1965 model golf clubs or even 1920's wood shafterd clubs.

Simply changing out equipment wouldn't likely even give a fair comparison between the eras. Look at how lean most of the guys are on the course these days - you've got guys weighing 145 that can pound a driver out 300+ yds. Some is equipment, some is coaching, some is conditioning - and most of the courses have been made more challenging either by increasing obstacles, lengthening, etc. to address the changes over the years.

[kalm]

I'm not talking just US Open, but all majors. Jack finished top 5, 17 times in the Britsh Open. How many all-time great golfers are there on the tour today, Woods, another level down Mickelson and who else? We don't know if these players would win more today, it's all opinion. It would be interesting to see the scores of today's golfers with 1965 model golf clubs or even 1920's wood shafterd clubs.

Simply changing out equipment wouldn't likely even give a fair comparison between the eras. Look at how lean most of the guys are on the course these days - you've got guys weighing 145 that can pound a driver out 300+ yds. Some is equipment, some is coaching, some is conditioning - and most of the courses have been made more challenging either by increasing obstacles, lengthening, etc. to address the changes over the years.

Until very recently, length of the courses hadn't kept up with the distance the ball goes. I agree there are more obstacles, but the courses also tend to be more consistently maintained and the greens are much faster.

You're definitely right about athleticism and conditioning. And perhaps the biggest improvement has come from information and the ability of the instructors to provide video analysis and comparisons. Most of the older generation were either self taught or mimicked their father or the club pro who may or may not have been someone to emulate

89: You forgot Eammon Dacry!

[89Hen]

I'm not talking just US Open, but all majors. Jack finished top 5, 17 times in the Britsh Open. How many all-time great golfers are there on the tour today, Woods, another level down Mickelson and who else? We don't know if these players would win more today, it's all opinion. It would be interesting to see the scores of today's golfers with 1965 model golf clubs or even 1920's wood shafterd clubs.

It is all opinion. What I'm saying is that it was much more common in the past for their to be multiple (3+) winners of majors than today. That single thing alone tells me the competition is much tougher now.

Open Champions, #, last year
Harry Vardon 6 - 1914
James Braid 5 - 1910
John Henry Taylor 5 - 1913
Peter Thomson 5 - 1965
Tom Watson 5 - 1983
Tom Morris, Sr. 4 - 1867
Tom Morris, Jr. 4 - 1872
Willie Park, Sr. 4 - 1875
Walter Hagen 4 - 1929
Bobby Locke 4 - 1957
Jamie Anderson 3 - 1879
Bob Ferguson 3 - 1882
Bobby Jones 3 - 1930
Henry Cotton 3 - 1948
Gary Player 3 - 1974
Jack Nicklaus 3 - 1978
Seve Ballesteros 3 - 1988
Nick Faldo 3 - 1992
Tiger Woods 3 - 2006

[AZGrizFan]

BTW, just so nobody gets the wrong impression... Jack and Arnie were phenomenal golfers. Jack, Arnie and Tiger did tremendous things for the game, just in a different era. Given the chance to meet/play with Jack, Arnie or Tiger I'd pick Jack or Arnie any day of the week. I'm just surprised how many of you racist folks hate Tiger so much.

Tiger makes it so easy to dislike him. Not many folks are as incapable of maintaining emotional control on a course when they have a bad shot than he is. I expect someone of his caliber to not throw or kick clubs around. Couple that with his overall indifference to fans that idolize him and it's a perfect storm of dislike.

Why I dislike Tiger has nothing to do with his behavior ON the golf course.

[kalm]

I'm not talking just US Open, but all majors. Jack finished top 5, 17 times in the Britsh Open. How many all-time great golfers are there on the tour today, Woods, another level down Mickelson and who else? We don't know if these players would win more today, it's all opinion. It would be interesting to see the scores of today's golfers with 1965 model golf clubs or even 1920's wood shafterd clubs.

It is all opinion. What I'm saying is that it was much more common in the past for their to be multiple (3+) winners of majors than today. That single thing alone tells me the competition is much tougher now.

Open Champions, #, last year
Harry Vardon 6 - 1914
James Braid 5 - 1910
John Henry Taylor 5 - 1913
Peter Thomson 5 - 1965
Tom Watson 5 - 1983
Tom Morris, Sr. 4 - 1867
Tom Morris, Jr. 4 - 1872
Willie Park, Sr. 4 - 1875
Walter Hagen 4 - 1929
Bobby Locke 4 - 1957
Jamie Anderson 3 - 1879
Bob Ferguson 3 - 1882
Bobby Jones 3 - 1930
Henry Cotton 3 - 1948
Gary Player 3 - 1974
Jack Nicklaus 3 - 1978
Seve Ballesteros 3 - 1988
Nick Faldo 3 - 1992
Tiger Woods 3 - 2006

That's a much better way to put it Hen. The question being were Watson, Trevino, etc really that good or was there not much behind them? Is the Web Simpson of today the Scott Simpson of yesteryear? Interesting point and I now don't necessarily disagree

[AZGrizFan]

I'm not talking just US Open, but all majors. Jack finished top 5, 17 times in the Britsh Open. How many all-time great golfers are there on the tour today, Woods, another level down Mickelson and who else? We don't know if these players would win more today, it's all opinion. It would be interesting to see the scores of today's golfers with 1965 model golf clubs or even 1920's wood shafterd clubs.

It is all opinion. What I'm saying is that it was much more common in the past for their to be multiple (3+) winners of majors than today. That single thing alone tells me the competition is much tougher now.

Open Champions, #, last year
Harry Vardon 6 - 1914
James Braid 5 - 1910
John Henry Taylor 5 - 1913
Peter Thomson 5 - 1965
Tom Watson 5 - 1983
Tom Morris, Sr. 4 - 1867
Tom Morris, Jr. 4 - 1872
Willie Park, Sr. 4 - 1875
Walter Hagen 4 - 1929
Bobby Locke 4 - 1957
Jamie Anderson 3 - 1879
Bob Ferguson 3 - 1882
Bobby Jones 3 - 1930
Henry Cotton 3 - 1948
Gary Player 3 - 1974
Jack Nicklaus 3 - 1978
Seve Ballesteros 3 - 1988
Nick Faldo 3 - 1992
Tiger Woods 3 - 2006

Two interesting things about that list:

1) That "multiple wins" list is much shorter for the other three majors
2) Tom Watson's 5 wins as an American is vastly underappreciated

[Gil Dobie]

Simply changing out equipment wouldn't likely even give a fair comparison between the eras. Look at how lean most of the guys are on the course these days - you've got guys weighing 145 that can pound a driver out 300+ yds. Some is equipment, some is coaching, some is conditioning - and most of the courses have been made more challenging either by increasing obstacles, lengthening, etc. to address the changes over the years.

..........and had the golfers of the 1960's & 70's had the same conditioning programs, coaching and equipment. The old forged clubs took a good golfer to hit the ball straight. Not saying I am good, but I enjoy my 1970's model Jack Nicklaus Heritage irons.

[89Hen]

1) That "multiple wins" list is much shorter for the other three majors

3+ winners
PGA - 5
US Open - 6
Masters - 8
Open - 19

[ASUG8]

Tiger makes it so easy to dislike him. Not many folks are as incapable of maintaining emotional control on a course when they have a bad shot than he is. I expect someone of his caliber to not throw or kick clubs around. Couple that with his overall indifference to fans that idolize him and it's a perfect storm of dislike.

Why I dislike Tiger has nothing to do with his behavior ON the golf course.

Well, yeah....there's all that other stuff too. Not piling on for his personal life, but valid point.

[Ivytalk]

Maybe we should have a CS poll on which round, and which hole, Tiger will self-immolate in the British Open and the PGA.

[Gil Dobie]

Open Champions, #, last year
Harry Vardon 6 - 1914
James Braid 5 - 1910
John Henry Taylor 5 - 1913
Peter Thomson 5 - 1965
Tom Watson 5 - 1983
Tom Morris, Sr. 4 - 1867
Tom Morris, Jr. 4 - 1872
Willie Park, Sr. 4 - 1875
Walter Hagen 4 - 1929
Bobby Locke 4 - 1957
Jamie Anderson 3 - 1879
Bob Ferguson 3 - 1882
Bobby Jones 3 - 1930
Henry Cotton 3 - 1948
Gary Player 3 - 1974
Jack Nicklaus 3 - 1978
Seve Ballesteros 3 - 1988
Nick Faldo 3 - 1992
Tiger Woods 3 - 2006

Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, Trevino and Watson won 15 British Opens which didn't leave much room for the international folks to win.

[89Hen]

Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, Trevino and Watson won 15 British Opens which didn't leave much room for the international folks to win.

Except for Player.

Don't forget Ballesteros and Faldo with 6.

[AZGrizFan]

Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, Trevino and Watson won 15 British Opens which didn't leave much room for the international folks to win.

Except for Player.

Don't forget Ballesteros and Faldo with 6.

Between '59 and '83 15 of the 24 were won by either Nicklaus, Palmer, Player or Trevino. Between '59 and '92 21 of the 33 were won by one of those 4 or Ballasteros or Faldo. That's complete domination of a tournament by a very select group of golfers. Since '92 (20 years) the only golfers with more than one win are Tiger (3) and Padraig (2), and four of those 5 came in a four year span '05-'08.