OFFICIAL 2012 Phillies "Wait till October" thread

[Seahawks08]

cliff lee isn't overrated and since your premise is wrong, I don't need to give you another name.

[Ivytalk]

CHOOOOCCCHHH!

[bluehenbillk]

cliff lee isn't overrated and since your premise is wrong, I don't need to give you another name.

Cause you can't, admit it.

Back to the Phils -

"Guess who's back
Back again
Guess who's back
tell a friend..."

The momentum meter starting to twinge - the Leader is back tonight - CBP should be at a frenzy. Howard should be cleared today to start rehab assignment tomorrow - means he's back on July 18th at the latest, which is almost the time, maybe say give one more week till Halladay is back too.

All the kings horses & all the kings men - wait till October....remember the thread title, it hasn't changed.

[Seahawks08]

You have yet to offer any proof that he is overrated. I'll wait until you show something...then MAYBE I'll change my mind. This should be fun.

[bluehenbillk]

You have yet to offer any proof that he is overrated. I'll wait until you show something...then MAYBE I'll change my mind. This should be fun.

Zero wins this season. Multiple multi-run leads blown, dare I go back to where the mess all started Game 2 of the NLDS last season. $21M plus salary, zero wins, $21M plus salary, zero wins, $21M plus salary, zero wins.

Your move - name ONE more over-rated pitcher in MLB....

[Seahawks08]

LMFAO, using wins as a measure is the problem. Wins is a TEAM stat, not a pitching stat. Using stats that actually matter such as FIP and WAR, I could name countless pitchers who are overrated. But so far this season, Tim Lincecum has been the most overrated. Another pitcher who had been extremely lucky this season (until he needed TJ) was Brandon Beachy. Those are only 2 of MANY pitchers who are more "overrated" than Lee. For all his troubles up to this point, he is still a top 20 pitcher in the mlb.

[bluehenbillk]

LMFAO, using wins as a measure is the problem. Wins is a TEAM stat, not a pitching stat. Using stats that actually matter such as FIP and WAR, I could name countless pitchers who are overrated. But so far this season, Tim Lincecum has been the most overrated. Another pitcher who had been extremely lucky this season (until he needed TJ) was Brandon Beachy. Those are only 2 of MANY pitchers who are more "overrated" than Lee. For all his troubles up to this point, he is still a top 20 pitcher in the mlb.

I'll give you Lincecum is having a horrendous season, but that being said opponents BA against Lincecum vs Lee is almost identical.

Beachy? you're kidding yourself, yea Lee has a better BB-K ratio but ERA is almost half & better WHIP & far better opp BA.

See, you're one of those stat nerds that bury yourself in a computer & don't peek around it enough to watch what's going on. The most irritating thing about Lee is, he's been given chances to win games & he's squandered them. Yea, there are games like the 1-0 12 inning loss in SF, but how bout getting hurt by guys that really don't even belong in the majors, game at Camden Yards ringing a bell yet?

By the way, Lincecum makes $3M less than Lee too....

Maybe Utley will reverse Lee's shitty season.

[Seahawks08]

What you don't understand about Beachy is that he was EXTREMELY lucky. By that I mean his BABIP was insane, which ties into your BA against argument. He was bound to regress and increase his ERA to over 3, but with TJ, he didn't have the chance. Watch next year when he comes back, you'll see.

And I watch more baseball than any other sport, so no, I don't just use stats to make my arguments, but they play around 90% of the role. I've watched Lee since he was an Indian and how he progressed from an average pitcher into an ace.

And he remains an ace. You keep bringing up the salary for some reason, as if he doesn't deserve it. Aces make that kind of money whether you like it or not. And if Lee's shitty season so far consists of being a top 20 pitcher, I'll take it. His BABIP is bound to get better and when it does, watch out.

[bluehenbillk]

What you don't understand about Beachy is that he was EXTREMELY lucky. By that I mean his BABIP was insane, which ties into your BA against argument. He was bound to regress and increase his ERA to over 3, but with TJ, he didn't have the chance. Watch next year when he comes back, you'll see.

And I watch more baseball than any other sport, so no, I don't just use stats to make my arguments, but they play around 90% of the role. I've watched Lee since he was an Indian and how he progressed from an average pitcher into an ace.

And he remains an ace. You keep bringing up the salary for some reason, as if he doesn't deserve it. Aces make that kind of money whether you like it or not. And if Lee's shitty season so far consists of being a top 20 pitcher, I'll take it. His BABIP is bound to get better and when it does, watch out.

OK - I'm sorry I can't have a conversation with you anymore. BABIP? I had to look that up - another stupid sabremetric stat that tells you nothing. Batting average for balls in play, but don't count HR's. Well why the hell do you think Lee is losing games (not Winning - sorry Charlie Sheen for the reference)!!! How about Lee giving up a 3-run bomb to a .200 hitting 8-hitter against the Orioles this year - after being spotted with a 3-run lead. Oops, doesn't count against his BABIP so it must not have happened. There is one stat in baseball & sports for that matter that matters more than anything and it's W/L. Bottom line, Lee isn't helping in that department at all this year - trade the bum.

I guess that's what being a 'Nova fan gets you.

BTW - is there a sabre-metric stat for point guards playing on cocaine in a Final Four?

[Seahawks08]

The fact you brought my school into this shows I have won. Good day sir.

[Seahawks08]

I didn't get to see the game yesterday, but when I saw the box score...who the hell is Raul Valdez and why did he even get a start? Utley going 3-5 is a great sign!

[bluehenbillk]

Phenomenal game by Utley last night, hit for power, ran all over the place in the field - he looked great.

Just a shitty decision by Amaro & Manuel to do a "bullpen game" last night. When you're under 500 this time of year you can't afford to give away games. You have a pitcher, Cloyd, at Lehigh Valley that is going to the AAA All-Star game. I could give a flying F if it would mean "starting his clock", bring the kid up to pitch last night versus Valdes & Savery who was sent down last night after the Phils realized they're 0-17 in games Savery has pitched this season. But then again some people here think wins & losses are overrated stats.

Hunter Pence's at-bat in the 7th inning last night should be put in instructional videos for kids as the way "not to do it".

[Seahawks08]

Just a shitty decision by Amaro & Manuel to do a "bullpen game" last night. When you're under 500 this time of year you can't afford to give away games. You have a pitcher, Cloyd, at Lehigh Valley that is going to the AAA All-Star game. I could give a flying F if it would mean "starting his clock", bring the kid up to pitch last night versus Valdes & Savery who was sent down last night after the Phils realized they're 0-17 in games Savery has pitched this season. But then again some people here think wins & losses are overrated stats.

You can't seriously be that dumb. Joe Savery is a mop up guy. Therefore, he came into the game when the team was already losing.

[bluehenbillk]

Just a shitty decision by Amaro & Manuel to do a "bullpen game" last night. When you're under 500 this time of year you can't afford to give away games. You have a pitcher, Cloyd, at Lehigh Valley that is going to the AAA All-Star game. I could give a flying F if it would mean "starting his clock", bring the kid up to pitch last night versus Valdes & Savery who was sent down last night after the Phils realized they're 0-17 in games Savery has pitched this season. But then again some people here think wins & losses are overrated stats.

You can't seriously be that dumb. Joe Savery is a mop up guy. Therefore, he came into the game when the team was already losing.

Look - I know you're just a kid and you don't know any better, but you do watch the games?

You don't need sabre-math to figure out that Savery comes in to start to 3rd inning with the Phils down 3-2. He gets pulled during the 5th, effectively having dug the hole deep enough with his team down 8-2. There is no stat that has a shred of legitimacy to it that tells you he did a horrendous job. Qualls is another pyro with that 8th inning last night. Ugly.

[Seahawks08]

I was talking about the 0-17 record when he comes in. And he does suck, won't argue that. And Qualls sucks too. Can we just agree to disagree about the W/L thing? I mean, we root for the same team for crying out loud.

[bluehenbillk]

In a move that all Phillies fans can agree on and be happy about:

Chad Qualls is gone - they designated him for assignment this morning!!!!!

[Seahawks08]

Chad Qualls is gone - they designated him for assignment this morning!!!!!

[bluehenbillk]

I hate in this case to say I was right but, tonight's line:

5IP, 10H, 6ER

No wins through June, ERA in June is above 6. It's going from bad to skipping worse and entering UGLY. At the beginning of the season you could call Lee tough luck and the Phils weren't scoring for him and I'll agree that there is legitimacy there. However, Lee is now prone to giving up big innings, pitching around good hitters and getting killed by scrubs.

I think he lost his mental edge with Game 2 last fall, he hasn't been the same since. If you watch him pitch he's the anti-Halladay right now, his ball has no movement - completely straight and opponents, even guys that belong in the minors, are hitting him hard.

Ruben needs to ship him out before teams will make us pay more than half his overpaid salary.

Give Hamels a blank check and have him fill in the number.

[DSUrocks07]

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

[clenz]

Dude...answer my question

[Ivytalk]

I hate in this case to say I was right but, tonight's line:

5IP, 10H, 6ER

No wins through June, ERA in June is above 6. It's going from bad to skipping worse and entering UGLY. At the beginning of the season you could call Lee tough luck and the Phils weren't scoring for him and I'll agree that there is legitimacy there. However, Lee is now prone to giving up big innings, pitching around good hitters and getting killed by scrubs.

I think he lost his mental edge with Game 2 last fall, he hasn't been the same since. If you watch him pitch he's the anti-Halladay right now, his ball has no movement - completely straight and opponents, even guys that belong in the minors, are hitting him hard.

Ruben needs to ship him out before teams will make us pay more than half his overpaid salary.

Give Hamels a blank check and have him fill in the number.

I agree. Every start for Lee is progressively more nightmarish. Time for him to go while we can still get some value.

[Ivytalk]

Phillies have officially run up the white flag on this dismal season. All the buzz is now about trading Hamels before July 31.

[93henfan]

My Nats aren't looking so bad. Youth, vigor, optimism.

[bluehenbillk]

Looking at trading the wrong guy in Hamels versus Lee.

In other news Qualls went to the Yankees for cash yesterday, the rumored amount was $139.

[Ivytalk]

Looking at trading the wrong guy in Hamels versus Lee.

In other news Qualls went to the Yankees for cash yesterday, the rumored amount was $139.

I thought it was $693.