Question for Montana Fans...

[SUUTbird]

Was able to find some highlights of Portland State playing against Carroll College who currently is playing at the NAIA level. The Saints put up a real fight and made PSU earn the win and overall did not do to bad at all, the stats tell the story. Both teams had over 340 yards of offense (Carroll 343, PSU 360) and Carroll even had more first downs and won the time of possession battle.

Now the question is why is a team that is this talented and with so much success not even considered moving up to at least D2? Or has the College ever considered the move? I only ask because would be cool to see them in a conference like the GNAC and get to watch them come down to Dixie State to play. Also looking at enrolling there after I get back from my deployment for school so any info on that would be great

[Mvemjsunpx]

Probably because all of the small Montana universities play in NAIA (except MSU-Billings, but they don't have football).

[SouthDakotaGrizzly]

Probably because all of the small Montana universities play in NAIA (except MSU-Billings, but they don't have football).

What he said. Carroll has decades-long rivalries with MSU-Northern, Western Montana, Montana Tech and Rocky Mountain College, all a relatively short bus trip away. A move to the GNAC or RMAC would significantly increase travel costs and kill all of those rivalries.

[Franks Tanks]

Probably because all of the small Montana universities play in NAIA (except MSU-Billings, but they don't have football).

There are few D2 schools in the Pacific Northwest unfortunantly. I believe the GNAC has Humbolt State, Dixie State, Western Oregon, Central Washington and one more (maybe Southern Oregon). They play each other twice during conference play.

They would be great in D2, but D2 football is just dead in the area.

[Rich K]

Every once in a while a rumor is heard that says MSU-Billings is considering reviving football, but the rumor has always died as quickly as it began.

[cats2506]

Probably because all of the small Montana universities play in NAIA (except MSU-Billings, but they don't have football).

What he said. Carroll has decades-long rivalries with MSU-Northern, Western Montana, Montana Tech and Rocky Mountain College, all a relatively short bus trip away. A move to the GNAC or RMAC would significantly increase travel costs and kill all of those rivalries.

In addition they would have to follow NCAA rules which are far more strict and actually enforced as opposed to the NAIA (No Athletic Investigations Allowed)

[Brock Landers]

Yeah... the NCAA isn't the Wild West. Carroll would probably find out you have to obey certain "rules" at that level...

edit: what he said

[JALMOND]

Was able to find some highlights of Portland State playing against Carroll College who currently is playing at the NAIA level. The Saints put up a real fight and made PSU earn the win and overall did not do to bad at all, the stats tell the story. Both teams had over 340 yards of offense (Carroll 343, PSU 360) and Carroll even had more first downs and won the time of possession battle.

Now the question is why is a team that is this talented and with so much success not even considered moving up to at least D2? Or has the College ever considered the move? I only ask because would be cool to see them in a conference like the GNAC and get to watch them come down to Dixie State to play. Also looking at enrolling there after I get back from my deployment for school so any info on that would be great

Stats can be misleading. Carroll had 343 yards, but only 110 yards in the second half. Carroll scored 12 points in the first half, but did not score again until a minute and a half left in the 4th against our 3rd string defense. After the first quarter, the outcome was never really in doubt. As far as first downs and TOP, that can be skewed when one team is taking the full three downs to make a first down (sometimes four downs) and the other team is making big plays.

That is my Portland State side of the story. Now, as an alum of Rocky Mountain College (Carroll's rival) I can say that Carroll is a fixture in the Frontier Conference, which is a rather close knit group of schools and is a pretty stable conference, even compared to the GNAC. This year, Southern Oregon chose to stay in the NAIA and join the Frontier instead of moving up and going into the GNAC. Western Washington was in the GNAC and chose to drop their football program. Rumors are constant that Central Washington and Western Oregon will be going DI soon and leaving the GNAC with just four schools (I'm sure you've heard rumors as well about Dixie State). While all this was going on at the GNAC, the Frontier expanded by two teams (SOU and Dickinson State). Carroll is a mainstay in the conference and gets exposure more so than being DII. Why would they consider leaving a stable conference for such a volatile situation as the GNAC?

[SeattleGriz]

Was able to find some highlights of Portland State playing against Carroll College who currently is playing at the NAIA level. The Saints put up a real fight and made PSU earn the win and overall did not do to bad at all, the stats tell the story. Both teams had over 340 yards of offense (Carroll 343, PSU 360) and Carroll even had more first downs and won the time of possession battle.

Now the question is why is a team that is this talented and with so much success not even considered moving up to at least D2? Or has the College ever considered the move? I only ask because would be cool to see them in a conference like the GNAC and get to watch them come down to Dixie State to play. Also looking at enrolling there after I get back from my deployment for school so any info on that would be great

Stats can be misleading. Carroll had 343 yards, but only 110 yards in the second half. Carroll scored 12 points in the first half, but did not score again until a minute and a half left in the 4th against our 3rd string defense. After the first quarter, the outcome was never really in doubt. As far as first downs and TOP, that can be skewed when one team is taking the full three downs to make a first down (sometimes four downs) and the other team is making big plays.

That is my Portland State side of the story. Now, as an alum of Rocky Mountain College (Carroll's rival) I can say that Carroll is a fixture in the Frontier Conference, which is a rather close knit group of schools and is a pretty stable conference, even compared to the GNAC. This year, Southern Oregon chose to stay in the NAIA and join the Frontier instead of moving up and going into the GNAC. Western Washington was in the GNAC and chose to drop their football program. Rumors are constant that Central Washington and Western Oregon will be going DI soon and leaving the GNAC with just four schools (I'm sure you've heard rumors as well about Dixie State). While all this was going on at the GNAC, the Frontier expanded by two teams (SOU and Dickinson State). Carroll is a mainstay in the conference and gets exposure more so than being DII. Why would they consider leaving a stable conference for such a volatile situation as the GNAC?

I'll take two more regional DI teams.

[AZGrizFan]

Stats can be misleading. Carroll had 343 yards, but only 110 yards in the second half. Carroll scored 12 points in the first half, but did not score again until a minute and a half left in the 4th against our 3rd string defense. After the first quarter, the outcome was never really in doubt. As far as first downs and TOP, that can be skewed when one team is taking the full three downs to make a first down (sometimes four downs) and the other team is making big plays.

That is my Portland State side of the story. Now, as an alum of Rocky Mountain College (Carroll's rival) I can say that Carroll is a fixture in the Frontier Conference, which is a rather close knit group of schools and is a pretty stable conference, even compared to the GNAC. This year, Southern Oregon chose to stay in the NAIA and join the Frontier instead of moving up and going into the GNAC. Western Washington was in the GNAC and chose to drop their football program. Rumors are constant that Central Washington and Western Oregon will be going DI soon and leaving the GNAC with just four schools (I'm sure you've heard rumors as well about Dixie State). While all this was going on at the GNAC, the Frontier expanded by two teams (SOU and Dickinson State). Carroll is a mainstay in the conference and gets exposure more so than being DII. Why would they consider leaving a stable conference for such a volatile situation as the GNAC?

I'll take two more regional DI teams.

Then we could split the Big Sky into two MUCH MORE FRIENDLY regional conferences.

[Griz Fan]

Was able to find some highlights of Portland State playing against Carroll College who currently is playing at the NAIA level. The Saints put up a real fight and made PSU earn the win and overall did not do to bad at all, the stats tell the story. Both teams had over 340 yards of offense (Carroll 343, PSU 360) and Carroll even had more first downs and won the time of possession battle.

Now the question is why is a team that is this talented and with so much success not even considered moving up to at least D2? Or has the College ever considered the move? I only ask because would be cool to see them in a conference like the GNAC and get to watch them come down to Dixie State to play. Also looking at enrolling there after I get back from my deployment for school so any info on that would be great

What makes you think that a move for NAIA TO D2 is a move up. A lateral move to D2 doesn't make sense because of the extra travel that would be involved.

[rationalgriz]

Better question would be....Why isn't PSU considering NAIA?

[Mike Johnson]

There are few D2 schools in the Pacific Northwest unfortunantly. I believe the GNAC has Humbolt State, Dixie State, Western Oregon, Central Washington and one more (maybe Southern Oregon). They play each other twice during conference play.

They would be great in D2, but D2 football is just dead in the area.

The GNAC in football has Humboldt State, Dixie State, Western Oregon, Central Washington, Simon Fraser, and Azusa Pacific.

Southern Oregon plays football in the NAIA's Frontier Conference with Carroll and the other Montana schools, Eastern Oregon, and Dickinson State.

Carroll to the GNAC has been discussed a lot on the D2 board over the years. Proximity to so many other Montana schools is the main reason I have seen given. At one point, Carroll was trying to get the entire conference to move to NCAA Division II, but I don't know what happened to that.

BTW, none of the GNAC teams, including Central Washington (which is down from previous years) nor Western Oregon are remotely prepared to move up to Division I-FCS. $4M athletic budgets don't come close to $10M budgets or more in the Big Sky. Humboldt State emerged last year as the dominant team in the GNAC and appears to be prepared to defend that role this year.

[Mike Johnson]

Better question would be....Why isn't PSU considering NAIA?

Over qualification. Getting rid of 39 scholarships wouldn't help either.

[Tod]

Better question would be....Why isn't PSU considering NAIA?

Over qualification. Getting rid of 39 scholarships wouldn't help either.

Thanks for answering the question I was wondering, so I didn't have to Google it.

So, D-II allows 36 schollies, and to remain Title IX compliant, 12 more women's schollies would have to be offered.

That might be tough for some of these Frontier Conference schools.

[cats2506]

Over qualification. Getting rid of 39 scholarships wouldn't help either.

Thanks for answering the question I was wondering, so I didn't have to Google it.

So, D-II allows 36 schollies, and to remain Title IX compliant, 12 more women's schollies would have to be offered.

That might be tough for some of these Frontier Conference schools.

Several of the Frontier schools have more schollys than that, just that many are listed as academic and in the NAIA they dont count against the athletic limit. Carroll would actually be cutting scholarships to move to DII

[JALMOND]

Better question would be....Why isn't PSU considering NAIA?

I don't quite understand this question...

[JALMOND]

Carroll to the GNAC has been discussed a lot on the D2 board over the years. Proximity to so many other Montana schools is the main reason I have seen given. At one point, Carroll was trying to get the entire conference to move to NCAA Division II, but I don't know what happened to that.

It was Carroll that was behind it, but the Frontier couldn't do it. Many of the schools (Rocky Mountain, Eastern Oregon, MSU-Northern), have their football departments operating on a shoestring budget as it is. Most don't even fly to games, opting to charter buses regardless of distance. I know Rocky scheduled some non conference games in California in the 90's and bussed down there every time from Billings. Carroll realized that a move to DII could jeopardize the conference so they dropped it.

[Tod]

Thanks for answering the question I was wondering, so I didn't have to Google it.

So, D-II allows 36 schollies, and to remain Title IX compliant, 12 more women's schollies would have to be offered.

That might be tough for some of these Frontier Conference schools.

Several of the Frontier schools have more schollys than that, just that many are listed as academic and in the NAIA they dont count against the athletic limit. Carroll would actually be cutting scholarships to move to DII

I'll take your word on this, but it brings up a question that I guess I already have the answer to, but has never occurred to me.

In the NCAA, a person with an academic scholarship will still count against the athletic schollie limit if they play sports?

Guess they wouldn't do that, but I hope I phrased the question properly.

[Mike Johnson]

In the NCAA, a person with an academic scholarship will still count against the athletic schollie limit if they play sports?

Guess they wouldn't do that, but I hope I phrased the question properly.

No, academic scholarships don't count toward athletic limits. Just ask the University of San Diego, where almost everybody on the football team has an academic or a needs-based scholarship, but the school officially offers no financial assistance for football.

[cats2506]

In the NCAA, a person with an academic scholarship will still count against the athletic schollie limit if they play sports?

Guess they wouldn't do that, but I hope I phrased the question properly.

No, academic scholarships don't count toward athletic limits. Just ask the University of San Diego, where almost everybody on the football team has an academic or a needs-based scholarship, but the school officially offers no financial assistance for football.

Yes they do, USD (and all the Pioneer) gives out needs based and academic but if their football team had more that the allowed limit then they would be in violation. any financial aid originating at the school is counted.

The purpose of the NCAA rule is to prohibit a school from having 100 on scholarship by giving some of the players "academic" or "needs based" scholarships. So if a player gets a academic scholarship from the school it is counted against the athletic limit.

NAIA has no such rule, so they can give academic money to anybody but are only limited by how many they can give from the athletic dept. Now in full disclosure the majority of players in places like Carroll that are receiving academic or needs based aid are only receiving partial, and I don't know what it all adds up too but I have been told by a Carroll alum that it is definitely north of 36.

[Tod]

No, academic scholarships don't count toward athletic limits. Just ask the University of San Diego, where almost everybody on the football team has an academic or a needs-based scholarship, but the school officially offers no financial assistance for football.

Yes they do, USD (and all the Pioneer) gives out needs based and academic but if their football team had more that the allowed limit then they would be in violation. any financial aid originating at the school is counted.

The purpose of the NCAA rule is to prohibit a school from having 100 on scholarship by giving some of the players "academic" or "needs based" scholarships. So if a player gets a academic scholarship from the school it is counted against the athletic limit.

NAIA has no such rule, so they can give academic money to anybody but are only limited by how many they can give from the athletic dept. Now in full disclosure the majority of players in places like Carroll that are receiving academic or needs based aid are only receiving partial, and I don't know what it all adds up too but I have been told by a Carroll alum that it is definitely north of 36.

That's damn interesting. Any idea how many players a team like Carroll has?

[Mike Johnson]

It is actually more complicated than either of us claimed. For football and basketball, it depends on whether the student-athlete was recruited and even then doesn't count except when playing varsity or it can be certified that it was for academic reasons.

Here is the actual rule in the NCAA Division I Manual as to which scholarships count and which do not:

15.5.1.1 No Athletics Aid—Certification Required. A student-athlete [except for a recruited football or basketball student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8)] who does not receive athletically related financial aid per Bylaw 15.5.1-(a) or (b) but receives institutional financial aid (as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.1) shall not be a counter if the faculty athletics representative and the director of financial aid have certified that the student-athlete’s financial aid was granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability. The certification shall be kept on file in the office of the athletics director. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.1.2 Football or Basketball, Varsity Competition. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and who receives institutional financial aid (as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.1) granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability does not have to be counted until the student-athlete engages in varsity intercollegiate competition (as opposed to freshman, B-team, subvarsity, intramural or club competition) in those sports. For this provision to be applicable, there shall be on file in the office of the athletics director certification by the faculty athletics representative, the admissions officer and the chair of the financial aid committee that the student’s admission and financial aid were granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability. (Revised: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/93, 1/11/94, 6/20/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.1.2.1 Exception—Receipt of Institutional Academic Aid Only. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and whose only source of institutional financial aid is academic aid based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, may compete without counting in the institution’s financial aid team limits, provided he or she has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.000 (on a 4.000 scale) at the certifying institution. (Adopted: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

[S F State Gaters]

This whole discussion is fascinating to me, particularly regarding Azusa Pacific. I'd really seen NAIA to DII as a step up, if not a major one- more akin to transiting from FCS into FBS than from DII to DI- but it's interesting to think on how... libertarian the NAIA is vs. the NCAA.

What made it worthwhile for APU?

[Tod]

Yes they do, USD (and all the Pioneer) gives out needs based and academic but if their football team had more that the allowed limit then they would be in violation. any financial aid originating at the school is counted.

The purpose of the NCAA rule is to prohibit a school from having 100 on scholarship by giving some of the players "academic" or "needs based" scholarships. So if a player gets a academic scholarship from the school it is counted against the athletic limit.

NAIA has no such rule, so they can give academic money to anybody but are only limited by how many they can give from the athletic dept. Now in full disclosure the majority of players in places like Carroll that are receiving academic or needs based aid are only receiving partial, and I don't know what it all adds up too but I have been told by a Carroll alum that it is definitely north of 36.

That's damn interesting. Any idea how many players a team like Carroll has?

Carroll has 130 players on their roster!